Amish craftsmanship my butt!!!

[mikeofaustin]

If this is a home building job you'll find out the reason the 6 or so per cent under cut may be in the way they build a house. here in Wisconsin they will not put a bath room in the home nor will they run any electric lines you have to sub contract these out your self. They will stud it out but no finish.

Yeah, that's actually quite common throughout all the states. Getting a qualified contractor, or a 'licensed' electrician (etc.) to do something to your home, so it won't burn up in a fire. I've actually done a lot of things to my present home and previous homes that would require a licensed professional (and a city permit), but as long as I "know" how to do it correctly, I feel that I don't have to hire some overpriced person to do it. It gets done, it works, I don't file a permit with the city, no one calls on me... end of story.

The sad fact is that ours laws govern our own freedoms. For example, it would be illegal to kill yourself, despite having a chronic problem that causes constant pain.

Hint: Have a friend that can put in that bathroom for you, and don't let the city know (they'll only take a fee on the permit).

 

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[mikeofaustin]

You may be confusing Amish with Mennonites - Mennonites - same religious backgrounds, but more tolerant on things like mechanical objects,
but, either way - they pay taxes - on their land etc.

Both the Amish and the Mennonites believe in "rendering onto Caesar what is Caesars", but do not believe in commercial health insurance - which also includes Social Security. Many a battle has been waged over that since the 50's. They (Amish and Mennonites) did not consider SS a tax, as it was being hyped (since it was the IRS that tried to collect it from them), but a commercial health care policy. (The name for Social Security is:
"old age and survivors insurance" in part).

Eventually, this law was passed, signed by Johnson:

"Tucked into the 138 page bill was a clause exempting the Old Order Amish, and any other religious sect who conscientiously objected to insurance, from paying Social Security payments, providing that sect had been in existence since December 31, 1950. After Senate approval in July, the signing of the bill by President Lyndon B. Johnson on August 13, 1965, made it official and canceled tax accounts of some 15,000 Amish people amounting to nearly $250,000."

Furthermore, they do not pay health insurance of any kind - and they never collect Social Security, nor do they use medical
benefits of their states. Everything is "pay as you go".

My experience with the 'menonites' was in Canada... so I might not know how the system differed from here in the states. I will tell you one crazy thing though.... it was known that the local Mennonites would pay a blond/blue eyed person a hundred bucks to 'date' a person under a sheet for a few minutes. It wasn't an old wives tale.... it was the real thing. Me being a blond and blues eyed person, AND living in a hotel/bar/restaurant for 2-3 years, this subject came up a few times. The owner of the restaurant actually bought foods from them lettuce, tomato's, etc... (again, in canada), and I'd sometimes see them sitting and waiting on the back porch waiting for the transaction to go through. I don't mean to be ugly, but looking back, it really did look as if they were very tightly 'family' oriented (if you know what I mean).

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave44,

So - you think that is right? And who is the government? People. Our job, as citizens of this United States - is to make sure that people who are
losing their rights - are not. That's our job - to make sure that everyone is protected by the constitution - its not the governments job - its ours - we are the watchdogs of our own freedoms. We shouldn't be adding to the list of whats ok to take away.

MikeofAustin,

The truth of the matter is: everyone, everywhere, every religion, every walk of life - has their .............. misfits - people who don't fit into the mold of society. That's just human. Whether its Christian, Jewish, Mennonite, Amish, whatever. I'm sure you are not judging an entire religion based
on a few folks, right?

Beth

 

[crazyjarhead]

I have 10,000 dollars in Amish furniture made in Holmes county Ohio and it is the best money can buy Sorry, though you were out-done by them. It's a very competitive world we live in

 

[Dave44]

Mrs Oroblanco,, You feel the need to bring me back in ,why? To say flippantly let's chuck the constitution? Yes you said it, you cannot unring the bell no matter how much you hem or haw . Now really, what was it you think I said this time?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave44,

I wasn't trying to take back anything - what ever gave you THAT idea? You are still posting - and so am I. And, I get the impression that you still don't understand why I said that - if that is the case - I will re-iterate. You posted that, if someone didn't meet your standards, that they should lose their voting rights. That, is your idea of how the constitution should work - and I don't agree. (in case I'm not making myself clear,
the constitution guarantees voting rights).

Secondly, you posted to me, did you not?

Beth, actually people are stripped of their rights every day. Every single day. And the people who do it? Our own government.

I was answering.

Beth

 

[Dave44]

Dave44,

I wasn't trying to take back anything - what ever gave you THAT idea? You are still posting - and so am I. And, I get the impression that you still don't understand why I said that - if that is the case - I will re-iterate. You posted that, if someone didn't meet your standards, that they should lose their voting rights. That, is your idea of how the constitution should work - and I don't agree. (in case I'm not making myself clear,
the constitution guarantees voting rights).

Secondly, you posted to me, did you not?

Beth, actually people are stripped of their rights every day. Every single day. And the people who do it? Our own government.

I was answering.

Beth

I know we have some weird sticky problem that you cannot get past,, maybe it is because you do not read carefully.. look back at that post. Not that I disagree with my man Mike on that,, the government is taking away your rights- with EVERY new law they impose on us. This is against the constitution because the government is striving for domination,, Do you disagree with that?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave44,

Maybe you are right - we have a sticky problem that I cannot get past.

Here is my take on that sticky problem - one more time.

You posted, and again, I will quote you:

I do have a stipulation. It should be the law of the land that if you do not pay taxes, AND/OR if you are not a productive part of society, you have NO vote in elections.

That is, word for word - your post - your opinion. That is the post that is the "sticky problem". You have a "stipulation" to the constitution. Take away someone's right to vote. Are you now backing out of that statement? As an example, if I am in a terrible car accident and become a paraplegic, I am no longer "contributing" or being "productive", so, I should lose my right to vote?

You said it, I did not - now you are trying to blame something you said on me not understanding? I understand that statement perfectly.

Taking it to your next point, about the government taking away rights - I agree with you - and there are many folks who want them to. (they all have their "stipulations").

Nothing - nothing - nothing - except for high treason - should take away any of your constitutional rights. But as long as there are people who
think it is ok because of "this, that or the other thing", our government will be ok with legislating away our rights.

It starts small - I don't want you to have a chicken, because I hate chickens. So, we have ordinaces. And, we have brought it all the way to the
"safety" factor - its ok to not be "secure in your person", because, someone might get killed. OOOOOOOOO - we have lots of reasons to take
away constitutional rights - we just keep pushing it, and pushing it and pushing it.

The government gets away with it, because people let them. WE let them. So - do you really think that people should lose their constitutional right to vote, or not. Simple question.

Beth

 

[Dave44]

Well You skirted 2 questions,, Are you sure you are not a politician? I am not so I can be honest. If you do not contribute ANYTHING and are unequivically an ongoing drain on society, then you do not have the intelligence or drive to support this FREE way of life. So do you drive people to the polls for the motor voter type laws? Do you know that 1400 "Congratulations you have signed up to vote" notices were returned in Wisconsin because of invalid addresses? You can sign up and vote that day!!! But You do not have to PROVE you live there.
Now tell me Mrs brilliant, This is happening in alot of states, Where do You draw the line? You may be a huge part of the problem, "the constitution guarantees the right to vote", But if you are a criminal or a parasite, is that good? If you vote because some group like the SEIU or Move On.Org transports you across city, state or county lines and tells you who they want in office it should be legal?
You Madam have set up a straw man argument and I have tried to humor you. You are wrong, you are ill informed and you have an unquenchable desire to look superior. Good for you!!
And if one were to listen to your rants you claim to be close to a constitutional Scholar!!! Heck Obama says that too, And every time they show him at a blackboard he is explaining Rules for Radicals!!
Please tell me you do not think that Cloward and Piven were right, because You seem to cherry pick the parts that make it stronger!!!

 

[mikeofaustin]

Dave44,
So - you think that is right? And who is the government? People. Our job, as citizens of this United States - is to make sure that people who are
losing their rights - are not. That's our job - to make sure that everyone is protected by the constitution - its not the governments job - its ours - we are the watchdogs of our own freedoms. We shouldn't be adding to the list of whats ok to take away.
Beth

Beth, I love you and while I wish this were currently true.... it's simply not. One would say "Hey, voting is power". Not today is isn't. The fact is that candidates that have the most money to campaign will be able to say 'whatever they wish' in order to get the vote. After they are elected, they have no obligation at all to honor anything they said. And, current campaigning rules are a joke. Obama (I'm not a rep or a dem), has been given the most contributions by corporations than any other president in history. Conflict of interest? Yes. The majority of the American people (that are not 'in the know') vote based on election ads. If mister Do-Awesome doesn't have the campaign contributions to televise his ad's (because he is Pro civilian vs. Anti corporate), he will not have any money at all and not get the vote. Our current two party system should really be called "Pro-choice-corporate-democrats" and "Anti-choice-corporate-republicans". The common denominator between the two are obvious.

In my ugly world of beliefs... "You're going to get the fox out of the hen house if you simply ask the fox to vote himself out". It's human nature to be greedy. It's built into our DNA. I'm not communist, but if you look at history, in the long term, democracy simply doesn't work. We're feeling that now.

I really wish it were the people that put our government in check. But the sad fact is, if you were to create a legal assemble and pointed out the problems that would need to be fixed in America, you would be put on the NSA watch list. You would be deemed a potential terrorist.

 

[mikeofaustin]

I have 10,000 dollars in Amish furniture made in Holmes county Ohio and it is the best money can buy Sorry, though you were out-done by them. It's a very competitive world we live in

Yep, and look at how they live. So, to compete, we should all go back to the stone age, despite our technological advances. Give up TV, Radio, Cell phones.

Actually, before long, that's how we will all live, because of outsourcing to china, India, etc... we will live like them. A family in a 10x20 room. It's a distrubution of the global wealth (or an averaging of the global household living conditions). America was once great in the fact that we lived quite well.

 

[mikeofaustin]

Dave/Beth.... Let in interject here. Beth actually made a subtle [good] point. But, please think about this... "if you pay no taxes, you should not have a vote". Actually what if someone were homeless because of crazy conditions that were out of his control. I would like to think that if millions paid no taxes based on this, they could still have a vote. I think even convicted felons should have a vote.... otherwise, 'they' would be able to incarcerate the whole lot that disagreed with them, and they would have there way.

Edit: I was thinking just this morning of a friend of mine. He was not married, but had a newborn with his live-in girlfriend. He was taking a nap on the bed, and the baby just got out of the bathtub and was put right next to his father on the bed next to him and mom took a picture of the two. His mother-in-law (so to speak) hates him... so she found the picture and made a BIG stink. Long story short, he'll be out soon after a 5 year prison sentence for child pornography. He is now a convicted felon. I would like to think he would be able to vote.

@Jeff: I know your chomping at the bit the get this moved to 'politics', and I thank you very much for not doing that. That you very much. My personal belief is that if people were able to vote based on knowledge obtained (other than TV propaganda), we (you) are doing this world a service.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I skirted nothing - talk about being a good politician.

But - I give up - this is the reason why I am not registered republican or democrat. I like to think independently, and I hate people who like
to use good "examples" of why another American should be denied their rights.

So - this will be my last post on a subject that either in incomprehensible or is being ignored.

Just for your information - I do not believe a convict should have his voting rights or his right to bear arms taken away, either. I think it is unconstitutional. Also, to attach a monetary condition to whether or not you can have a right or not, is..................wrong, when you live with
our constitution. Many homeless folks do vote - and many homeless folks are not homeless on purpose. (some are). Either way, you can keep
thinking up reasons why someone - not you - shouldn't have all their constitutional rights as guaranteed by our forefathers, and I'll keep on believeing that the constitution is meant for all Americans, not just ones that own houses or meet your approval. ("you" being a relative term).

As to MikeofAustin's tale of the 5 year prison term - your friend just has to re-apply for his voting rights, and they will be restored. How he has to
go about it depends on the state.

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=16529

Jeff - I will not address this again in this thread. I believe that if someone lacks the ability to comprehend, or refuses to comprehend, someone elses point of view, then its time to stop the debate. Its like trying to teach a pig to sing. It doesn't work and annoys the pig.

Any other posts - by me - will address other points on the original thread.

Beth

 

[Dave44]

Mike of Austin.. you are absolutely right. I said that tongue in cheek but since I got blasted I defended it, and there needs to be some kind of test, because you said this-
In my ugly world of beliefs... "You're going to get the fox out of the hen house if you simply ask the fox to vote himself out". It's human nature to be greedy. It's built into our DNA. I'm not communist, but if you look at history, in the long term, democracy simply doesn't work. We're feeling that now.
Our founding Fathers knew this and set us up with a Representative Republic simply because democracies always fail. The problem is voter apathy and ignorance. If the voters are no longer educated so that they fail to appreciate being free, and they no longer have a moral structure that dictates responsibility in themselves, then, indeed, we lose, America becomes a Democracy. Many are already fighting for a simple Democracy because that keeps the politicians in power. At least until the country fails.
This IS the point, a simple majority vote spells trouble, as I said in an earlier post.

 

[mikeofaustin]

Yeah, I think Beth said it best... it's been hashed to death. (incidentally, I meant to say 'You're NOT going to get the foxes out of the hen house....'. Typo on my part, sorry).

In the end, there will always be arguments and discussions on what is best and what is worst for us. That's the democratic way. However, it's when you introduce corruption, does it no longer count as democracy. (people need to get that understanding under their fingernails).

This is my own opinion [but], Money talks. Want a law passed? Lobby. Want a law repealed? Lobby.

The Amish? Well, they live like stone age people. If you choose to live like a masochist, then by all means, you WILL be able to underbid someone. This actually hits right at the heart of outsourcing labor. There are people overseas that will work for 10 cents an hour. And, the only way to compete with them, is to lower your lifestyle to their living standards. Meanwhile, only the executives and stockholders benefit from this outsourcing. Only the person without money to invest millions to retain those dividends, will lose (widening of the gap for sure). Some might suggest that going overseas lowers product prices in America so we can buy more... but, what if we lost our job and have NO money. That's the big fallacy. If I lost my job as a TV manufacturer to someone overseas, how will I pay my bills? Others will say, "It's time to re-invent your self". Sure, if you have the money too... Go back to school, but in the mean time you loose your house because you can't pay your mortgage because you're paying for education. Tax breaks for educations? Yeah, that's a joke. A couple grand a year won't pay a mortgage, let alone put food on the table.

Bring our jobs back to the USA. Let seniors go into Canada once again to buy prescription medications that are pennies on the dollar. Bring 'TRUE' competition back to health care insurance... For that matter, screw private insurance all together. It was revealed that the medicare system only has a 10 percent overhead.... but, private industry has a MUCH larger overhead... so, why does the republican's want to give you a 'voucher' for private insurance? Short answer........ They are corporate sock puppets. WHY, would they make a bad decision like this. We already went (last year) round and round on the whole 'single payer system'. Anyone that wanted to, could keep their private health care, but there would be a government alternative of single payer if you wanted it. You know the real reason why they didn't want it? It was because they knew the private insurance would lose their billions of dollars of income.... Listen, they weren't shutting privates down, they were simply offering an alternative. But it did NOT pass. It would have been a complete disaster in loss of income for people that profited on the death of people.

I will end with this:. You will always hear republicans say, "Pay your own way. This is not socialist". And my response is simply, "I would be glad to, if you didn't change the rules of the game". The 'game' is changed to keep the corporations and stock holders rich. If they had everyone doing everything overseas, they have absolutely no need for the American people. Why would they? The don't rely on our labor, let alone our purchasing power because they have already set up a global sales system. American's are a very small piece of the puzzle. The sad truth is that if we had 100 percent unemployment, these people will still be living quite well on global sales.

 

[diggummup]

Posted on: Yesterday at 11:26:59 PM
Posted by: mikeofaustin
The Amish? Well, they live like stone age people.




Personally, I admire their way of life. I wish WE were all FORCED to live this way just so we could weed out all these fat, soft, whining, sorry excuses of life that call themselves Americans, that wouldn't last a week in such a lifestyle.
I pray for such a day.

 

[olroy70]

The Amish are allowed to opt out of several things............

like obamacare, ss, etc. Why cant anyone?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

There used to be a time that you could opt out of Social Security.

Let's talk about the "Affordable Care Act" (otherwise called "Obamacare')

*Ends lifetime and annual "limits" (we have had that problem for awhile - the insurance company tells you that after open-heart surgery, you can only be in the hospital for 3 days - and you cannot go back in for things like infections, if you've used up your "time').

* Tax credits for small businesses that supply healthcare for their employees.

* Patient Bill of Rights - not the same as the other patient bill of rights we had - this one stops your insurance company from dropping you if you get sick.

* Insurers must cover preventative medicine - like stress tests, your children's vaccinations, your colonoscopy when you turn 50, mammograms, healthy baby programs - stuff like that.

* The right of self-employed folks to join a group health plan (anyone who is self-employed knows that private insurance is expensive - more expensive than if you were not self-employed)

* Requires health insurers to write their policies in plain language, not longer than 4 pages in real English and not "legal-eze".

In fact - I suggest that, instead of listening to what others tell you about "Obamacare" - you might actually read it for yourself - unlike our
politicians.............

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/about/The Full Law by Section/bysection.html

Beth

 

[olroy70]

Did you also notice the cost of it. Did you notice the death panel.......

Nobama himself mentioned that one........ 'Just take some pain pills and go home!'

that is my favorite, which guarantees my health care........ Get sick and die old man!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Anytime government gets involved with anything - there are problems - for sure.

However, it seems to be working in Mass - Mitt Romney put this almost identical program into effect, and everyone there seems to like it.

Death panels - you have been following Arizona, right? Insurance companies already have the right to say - no way, we aren't paying for that.
The hope is that we will have less of that, rather than more.

I'm just wondering - the insurance companies NOW have the right to deny whomever they decide to - its their way of "saving money", meaning,
its their way of making more money. If you have a pre-existing condition - the insurance company can refuse payments on life-saving measures now - how is that not a "death panel"?

Beth