Archaeologist here - lets chat!

[Dan]

WELL SAID Jon Phillips!!!!

Easttrail, you wrote:


"I've tried to make clear this whole time that I don't think detectorists are "bad". If I thought that, I wouldn't have come here in the first place. For the record, a lot of archaeologists don't consider those old guys real archaeologists - they're called "antiquarians". And there are definitely movements to repatriate antiquities to their countries of origin. It happens all the time. Stuff's constantly getting shipped back from museums to where it was stolen from."


"Those old guys" are a reference to an earlier post on Egyptologists, and early archaeologists, and the grave robbing and looting that was the norm at the time. You indicate that many, if not most, current archaeologists don't consider them archaeologists...but most were. I mean...they actually "wrote the books", right? A lot of them did anyway. They were the state of the art, and cutting edge of research, and field techniques at their time. Now it was a time where the doctor delivering your baby might be smoking a cigarette at the time!

Now it may seem like those days were a long time ago...but... the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act was enacted in 1990....not that long ago. That means it took federal action (and grant money...SHOCKINGLY!!), just a few years ago...on current museums, universities, and state employed archaeologists, to make them return items removed from graves...including human remains. So it's not that far removed...In fact...you can watch NatGeo, the various History Channels, and Discovery, etc., on about any day, and see currently produced shows full of graves being opened, and remains and items being stored in plastic tubs in some university somewhere...just not necessarily American Indians anymore.

And I would imagine most of those other items being returned from museums to their country of origin are more than likely a result of lawsuits rather than "doing the right thing".

My point is....For any archaeologists to label any metal detectorist (that isn't actually breaking the law by detecting at a historical park, etc.), or a point collector (that isn't digging into a grave, etc.), a "looter" or "grave robber", is extremely hypocritical, when it was the cornerstone of the archaeological profession for quite a while!

You don't want that label on you, because it doesn't describe you or your colleagues, right?
We don't want it on us either, but it is freely handed out by many of your colleagues!

Your colleagues can't hold us responsible for the actions of a few criminals any more than we could hold them responsible for the actions of their predecessors, that filled their displays.

When the "powers that be" can stop transferring their guilt or whatever is going on there..."deflection" I guess...to us, and stop worrying about us owning things that they admit that they don't really care about, as far as site information is concerned, maybe we could find common ground like with the paleantologists.

So you see...there is nothing we can do.

The ball is 100% in "your" court. It will take a "change of the guard" I'm afraid. I just don't see those hate spewing, heads of departments, and their brainwashed minions that think a person with a detector detroys stone walls, and the answer to all site preservation is to ban detectors outright instead of fighting developement of the site by construction companies, will EVER, reverse a viewpoint they have rammed home so hard for so long.....

Just as you don't think detectorist are "bad", I don't think archaeologists are "bad". I think many are biased, and mis-informed, and I don't care for the ones that don't "produce" anything...or the ones that try to act like something is newly discovered, or important, when it isn't....just to get grant money.

 

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[bigscoop]

I'll have to inform the people I work with that they're my cronies now!

How would you feel about stewardship programs or public archaeology weekends, where supervised metal detecting at a state park would be encouraged? That way we can learn from each other, we all get to see what's there, and no one can do something irresponsible. To me, that sounds like a good compromise between "Hands off forever" and "Dig up whatever, whenever". What do you think?

"Stewardship" is nothing more then a ploy that only benefits your institution...."Period". If I put in the research, the time, the investment, and I find it, it and all my research is mine. If you/gov wants the item and my research then you buy it back through a self funding buyback program. You get what you want, I get what I worked for and paid for and educated myself for, and, the general public gets to see a whole lot more discoveries being made. Everybody get's what they want, which is the only way it should be worked out within a rational, reasonable, logical, and unified system.

 

[vibes]

Hi!!! I've been TH'ing for a good chunk of time...what cha say you get me on Johnson's Island for a solo dig and you take notes. is that ok? I think you'd learn a lot

 

[montanagold]

I have heard the context arguement so many times and it seems to be the archies only arguement. The hole in that theory is that a bunch of us including myself hunt old homesteads that are on private land and here in montana it is mostly farm land so the foundations are barley there and the ground has been tilled up for years, So where is the arguement for that? The context is gone and in most cases there is no way to tell what has been done to that land for years, it could have had top soil brought in to replace current soil. So marking an items context is nothing more that a guess. Right?

 

[bigscoop]

The biggest failure within the archeological community rest in their failure to admit that, "it's all about money". Every artifact and item they remove from the ground becomes an asset or liability, depending on how you want to class it and use it. These assets and liabilities eventually equate into budgets and funding that is constantly being lobbied for. These assets, liabilities and budgets provide jobs, the bigger the collection of assets and liabilities the more manpower, equipment, etc., it takes to run the enterprise. So the bottom line in this enterprise, just as in any other enterprise, is "Money". However, the archeological community never seems to want to understand that this same structure also applies to privately funded enterprises who don't have the luxury of operating off of grants, donations, and Government funding (tax payer money). Yet, if you took away all the great discoveries that have ever been made by private enterprises what would you have left? Not much!

 

[Philvis]

The biggest failure within the archeological community rest in their failure to admit that, "it's all about money". Every artifact and item they remove from the ground becomes an asset or liability, depending on how you want to class it and use it. These assets and liabilities eventually equate into budgets and funding that is constantly being lobbied for. These assets, liabilities and budgets provide jobs, the bigger the collection of assets and liabilities the more manpower, equipment, etc., it takes to run the enterprise. So the bottom line in this enterprise, just as in any other enterprise, is "Money". However, the archeological community never seems to want to understand that this same structure also applies to privately funded enterprises who don't have the luxury of operating off of grants, donations, and Government funding (tax payer money). Yet, if you took away all the great discoveries that have ever been made by private enterprises what would you have left? Not much!

As a former archaeologist, I will respectfully disagree with you on that bigscoop. The first thing you need to do is differentiate between academic archaeology and cultural resource management. The latter is the bulk of the archaeology that is conducted in the United States. Essentially if state or federal land is going to be disturbed, they are required to have an archaeological survey done beforehand to ensure there is nothing of significance that will be lost. CRM work is the vast majority of archaeology done. The archaeological company is hired to do an initial survey and a Phase I assessment. That equates to looking first in the historic resources department to see if any archaeological work has ever been done on the site, and if not, then a historical investigation of the site, topography studies, etc. Then shovel monkeys are sent to the site to do a Phase I analysis, where they basically just dig a hole every 10-20 meters depending on the requirements. They dig about a 12-14 inch diameter hole until they hit subsoil. The dirt is sifted for artifacts and the stratigraphy of the hole is taken. The 'shovel monkeys' doing this are lucky if they get paid $10-12 an hour to do this. I know that with a Master's degree I was paid a whopping sum of $11.50/hr. I've never met a well off archaeologist. Everyone I know, including myself, struggled immensly as the pay in archaeology is ABYSMAL. I left archaelogy because after paying my student loans, I barely had money left considering most work was part time. The job is about as unglamourous as it gets. Archaeologists and many metal detectorists have one thing in common...their love/passion for history. That is the only reason anyone does archaeology. NEVER for money.

Academic archaeologist are just professors. In the summers they either conduct a field school or occasionally they get grants to conduct excavations. Funding has to occur for these digs to occur and by no means are those funds being used to line the pockets of archaeologists. For example, a site that began being excavated when I was a student continues to be dug upon for one semester in the summer by students from my college. The local power plant actually funds the dig. There is no money play or secret conspiracies out there driving archaeologists to wage war with metal detectorists. The one thing archaeology is not about is money.

 

[Hot zone]

Let's say I am walking along on BLM land and spy an arrowhead lying right in the middle of the hiking trail. I am not allowed to pick it up, so pass it by. How many pass it by before someone picks it up? Stupid law written by stupid people to satisfy stupid archaeologists. Here is how to safely pick it up: Film yourself making an arrowhead and keep that point in your pocket. Put all finds in that pocket. Show in court that one of your confiscated finds was actually made by you, throwing doubt on the ones you did not. After all, someone will pick it up, it might as well be you!

 

[Philvis]

Let's say I am walking along on BLM land and spy an arrowhead lying right in the middle of the hiking trail. I am not allowed to pick it up, so pass it by. How many pass it by before someone picks it up? Stupid law written by stupid people to satisfy stupid archaeologists. Here is how to safely pick it up: Film yourself making an arrowhead and keep that point in your pocket. Put all finds in that pocket. Show in court that one of your confiscated finds was actually made by you, throwing doubt on the ones you did not. After all, someone will pick it up, it might as well be you!

The government doesn't want you picking it up because they view it as theirs...and God forbid it may have some worth to it. It's the same if you stumbled upon a cache of gold bars or silver coins. If they know it was from their land, they will want it. That's just the government being the government. Just ask Doc Noss' family about Victorio Peak.

 

[DeadElvis]

The government doesn't want you picking it up because they view it as theirs...and God forbid it may have some worth to it. It's the same if you stumbled upon a cache of gold bars or silver coins. If they know it was from their land, they will want it. That's just the government being the government. Just ask Doc Noss' family about Victorio Peak.

Our government should return to their original purpose, which is to provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. Damn, I should send those words in to my representative, they sound awfully sweet.

DE

 

[lookindown]

As a former archaeologist, I will respectfully disagree with you on that bigscoop. The first thing you need to do is differentiate between academic archaeology and cultural resource management. The latter is the bulk of the archaeology that is conducted in the United States. Essentially if state or federal land is going to be disturbed, they are required to have an archaeological survey done beforehand to ensure there is nothing of significance that will be lost. CRM work is the vast majority of archaeology done. The archaeological company is hired to do an initial survey and a Phase I assessment. That equates to looking first in the historic resources department to see if any archaeological work has ever been done on the site, and if not, then a historical investigation of the site, topography studies, etc. Then shovel monkeys are sent to the site to do a Phase I analysis, where they basically just dig a hole every 10-20 meters depending on the requirements. They dig about a 12-14 inch diameter hole until they hit subsoil. The dirt is sifted for artifacts and the stratigraphy of the hole is taken. The 'shovel monkeys' doing this are lucky if they get paid $10-12 an hour to do this. I know that with a Master's degree I was paid a whopping sum of $11.50/hr. I've never met a well off archaeologist. Everyone I know, including myself, struggled immensly as the pay in archaeology is ABYSMAL. I left archaelogy because after paying my student loans, I barely had money left considering most work was part time. The job is about as unglamourous as it gets. Archaeologists and many metal detectorists have one thing in common...their love/passion for history. That is the only reason anyone does archaeology. NEVER for money.

Academic archaeologist are just professors. In the summers they either conduct a field school or occasionally they get grants to conduct excavations. Funding has to occur for these digs to occur and by no means are those funds being used to line the pockets of archaeologists. For example, a site that began being excavated when I was a student continues to be dug upon for one semester in the summer by students from my college. The local power plant actually funds the dig. There is no money play or secret conspiracies out there driving archaeologists to wage war with metal detectorists. The one thing archaeology is not about is money.

So they do it for the love and passion for history...but they dont want detectorist to do it...doesnt seem right. They want it all for themselves and dont want to share.
.

 

[jeff of pa]

How would you feel about stewardship programs or public archaeology weekends, where supervised metal detecting at a state park would be encouraged? That way we can learn from each other, we all get to see what's there, and no one can do something irresponsible. To me, that sounds like a good compromise between "Hands off forever" and "Dig up whatever, whenever". What do you think?

First off, welcome to TreasureNet

There's that word again "stewardship" Too many meanings.
(remember when you were a Kid, & your mother said "No, you'll thank me later",
or "I know it's gross, but it's good for you" ? archeologists are not my mother.
and I'm not 3 any more)


Tell me, we get invited to a historical site in a state park, we detect, we dig, we get the first
chance to see and handle what we dig. If we find 2 identical "historical" items that should be in a museum.
we get 1.

Or are you saying, we go, we detect, we put markers. you dig some, till you get tired
of tin can slaw, & iron & shut down site.
we don't touch historical items if found.
you get paid, we get a thank you in the paper ?

 

[Terry Soloman]

No, I don't speak for you - I speak for me. I wrote to the guy in Montana: "Your argument would have had a lot of credibility had you not sold out and tried to profit off the rest of us with your lame and ill-thought out metal detecting show. Let's all take a moment to remember what actually set off this firestorm. PAH-LEASE, stop insulting us and trying to be part of this community. You threw that away and brought a lot of stuff down on the rest of us. BOOOOM Baby! Why don't you and Rick Savage duke it out to see who is "The Biggest Loser."

This guy - IN MY OPINION - deserves to be tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail. He has brought shame and undue attention on my hobby, because he chose to make a clown of himself for the opportunity to be on television and make MONEY. His gain, my loss.

I'm real tired of having to explain my right to have an opinion. I am also sorry that we don't agree on this issue, as I really feel it is a no brainer. I don't see ANY metal detector manufacturers backing ANY of these shows - do you? I think they get it. Garrett ran like a scared rabbit at the first sign of trouble.

Please, at least allow me to have beliefs and opinions equal to those I oppose..

Terry dont speak for me, I like the show. Where do you get off telling someone to stop trying to be part of this community? A lot of people on here dont like you so why dont you take your own advice, stop insulting us and quit trying to be part of this community.

 

[N.J.THer]

I think some of the posters are getting off topic on this thread...like that ever happens on T-Net. There are multiple threads about both Diggers and American Diggers. I've stated how I feel about both shows on those threads.

I think the hostile environment may have scared off Easttrail. A bunch of people are stating what they feel the problems with archaeologists and the rules are which I agree with some of that but I think the intent of the original poster was to open a discussion on how to fix the relationship and misunderstandings of each group.

Lets try to forget what the issues are and lets pretend you could set the rules of how the two groups should work together. How would your world work? What would be the perfect compromise between then two groups? Lets hear your thoughts.

NJ

 

[Hot zone]

How can you fix a love/hate relationship when both sides obviously and passionately love to hate each other? Not unlike our broken government hashing the same things generations later. Any progress is sure to be undone!

 

[N.J.THer]

How can you fix a love/hate relationship when both sides obviously and passionately love to hate each other? Not unlike our broken government hashing the same things generations later. Any progress is sure to be undone!

That maybe the case but I would rather be the bigger person and be able to honestly say 'Hey, I tried to make it work'. BTW not every archaeologist agrees 100% with how the U.S. Government operates and I see more and more are interested in letting detectorist help out at sites. I've been invited to dig at protected sites in 4 or 5 different states. As stated by Jeff I don't get to keep the items I find even if it is duplicate finds but I'm okay with that. We are actually digging up the items not just marking them for the archaeologists to dig and as you all know there is something thrilling about being the first person to hold a piece of history in 150-250 years. I'm okay with that...I don't need it in a display case in my living room (not that there is anything wrong with that if you find your stuff legally). JMHO

NJ

 

[lookindown]

No, I don't speak for you - I speak for me. I wrote to the guy in Montana: "Your argument would have had a lot of credibility had you not sold out and tried to profit off the rest of us with your lame and ill-thought out metal detecting show. Let's all take a moment to remember what actually set off this firestorm. PAH-LEASE, stop insulting us and trying to be part of this community. You threw that away and brought a lot of stuff down on the rest of us. BOOOOM Baby! Why don't you and Rick Savage duke it out to see who is "The Biggest Loser."

This guy - IN MY OPINION - deserves to be tarred and feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail. He has brought shame and undue attention on my hobby, because he chose to make a clown of himself for the opportunity to be on television and make MONEY. His gain, my loss.

I'm real tired of having to explain my right to have an opinion. I am also sorry that we don't agree on this issue, as I really feel it is a no brainer. I don't see ANY metal detector manufacturers backing ANY of these shows - do you? I think they get it. Garrett ran like a scared rabbit at the first sign of trouble.

Please, at least allow me to have beliefs and opinions equal to those I oppose..

Thats fine...just dont forget to respect others beliefs and opinions...you came across like a bully trying to run someone off...I hate bullies.

 

[Jon Phillips]

I think some of the posters are getting off topic on this thread...like that ever happens on T-Net. There are multiple threads about both Diggers and American Diggers. I've stated how I feel about both shows on those threads.

I think the hostile environment may have scared off Easttrail. A bunch of people are stating what they feel the problems with archaeologists and the rules are which I agree with some of that but I think the intent of the original poster was to open a discussion on how to fix the relationship and misunderstandings of each group.

Lets try to forget what the issues are and lets pretend you could set the rules of how the two groups should work together. How would your world work? What would be the perfect compromise between then two groups? Lets hear your thoughts.

NJ

I think a permit system would work if we had to come up with a compromise.

This would be for government land that wasn't a federal or state park...which would mean all public lands....state forests, submerged lands, (coastal areas within a park, and non-historic parks should be open as well...playgrounds, picnic areas, etc.... in an ideal situation.),and all government owned land that wasn't designated for specific use. (swampy areas, un-inhabited islands, etc.

The permit should allow for "normal" collecting...as in, digging within the range of a metal detector, surface hunting....projectile points, bottles, etc., and water hunting by sight, and manual fanning only....no mechanical diggers/tillers/augers/dredges/underwater blowers or vacs.....no large scale digging, and sifting for instance. (a seperate, more elaborate, permit could cover any of that if needed).

There could be a reporting system in place like with the fossil permits for unusual finds to be allowed to be requested, or bought from the finder. There could be an exclusion on common items like musketballs, buttons, coins, bottles, etc. in order to cut down on paperwork.

If a site is so important that it needed protection...it should become a state or federal park.

The fossil permits in Florida are $5 a year, and required if you hunt more than 3 times a year, or use tools to dig. There is a reporting requirement, and there is a provision to aquire unusual specimens.

I would gladly pay $25 a year to be able to do that. If $5 a year pays for the fossil permit system, there is no reason $25 a year wouldn't cover the relic permit system. The reporting system would be back, people would be more willing to share information with government officials when they were not being hostile towards us, and everyone with any common sense is happy!

I know of a site that has been fully documented, an archaeological dig has already happened, the items found are safely hidden away at the state university so they can rot and never be seen by us commoners...whatever site info that was discovered has been burried from prying eyes, and extensive logging is currently destroying the landscape that has remained the same for about 175 years. There was a lot of history there for a long time, and there is no reason why metal detecting couldn't be allowed there. The official digs have happened, and the site is being damaged....no reason.

 

[Thommy]

I think the real problem is the perception that only academics should be allowed to hunt or recover artifacts, and that the public should "leave it to the professionals". I come from a different background than most MD-ers or Archaeologists. I "got the bug" when I found a Minie Ball in the mud at Bloody Pond on Shiloh battlefield in 1965 when I was 6 years old. I built my first detector -a Heathkit- when I was 12. I became a "Professional" archaeologist after going back to college at age 30. So I have been on both sides. I can think of many, many, times we had to rely on the expertise of "Collectors" and "Relic Hunters" to identify artifacts correctly. Without the body of knowledge provided by collectors such as Dr. Francis Lord (who I've met personally, God rest him), Alphaeus Albert, Sidney Kerksis, Tom Dickey, etc., we would be in the dark about a lot of material culture items. I've seen many objects misidentified, but when contacted by "Amateur" collectors and Metal Detectorists, their input is disregarded by academics. That kind of snobbery is offensive, and unproductive. I can think of an esteemed Florida Archaeologist who misidentified an artifact in a published book, but she refuses to acknowledge her error unless some higher-up in the Professional Anthropologist clique provides evidence she will except. She refuses to acknowledge evidence provided by people who don't have a graduate degree. That snobbery has led to a perception by the public that Metal Detectorists are "bad people" ripping off the rest of American Society -when those same people are often the very ones who collected and compiled the data for the public to use!

 

[Hot zone]

I once dug an area of private property that a local college spent time in and gave it up as nothing significant was there. They were reported to have trenched with a backhoe. Afterwords extensive potholing and trenching occurred by local amateurs. When I arrived I was told it was dug out. I began by moving large amounts of tailing piles to reveal good midden and over a period of 5 years made many fine recoveries. I can tell in a second when and if I am dealing with tailings. A skill I am sure few aspiring archaeologists possess. There are many places just like that one and with damage any significance is surely gone without knowledge gleaned through experience. They would be wise indeed to enlist the help of amateurs.

 

[bigscoop]

As a former archaeologist, I will respectfully disagree with you on that bigscoop. The first thing you need to do is differentiate between academic archaeology and cultural resource management. The latter is the bulk of the archaeology that is conducted in the United States. Essentially if state or federal land is going to be disturbed, they are required to have an archaeological survey done beforehand to ensure there is nothing of significance that will be lost. CRM work is the vast majority of archaeology done. The archaeological company is hired to do an initial survey and a Phase I assessment. That equates to looking first in the historic resources department to see if any archaeological work has ever been done on the site, and if not, then a historical investigation of the site, topography studies, etc. Then shovel monkeys are sent to the site to do a Phase I analysis, where they basically just dig a hole every 10-20 meters depending on the requirements. They dig about a 12-14 inch diameter hole until they hit subsoil. The dirt is sifted for artifacts and the stratigraphy of the hole is taken. The 'shovel monkeys' doing this are lucky if they get paid $10-12 an hour to do this. I know that with a Master's degree I was paid a whopping sum of $11.50/hr. I've never met a well off archaeologist. Everyone I know, including myself, struggled immensly as the pay in archaeology is ABYSMAL. I left archaelogy because after paying my student loans, I barely had money left considering most work was part time. The job is about as unglamourous as it gets. Archaeologists and many metal detectorists have one thing in common...their love/passion for history. That is the only reason anyone does archaeology. NEVER for money.

Academic archaeologist are just professors. In the summers they either conduct a field school or occasionally they get grants to conduct excavations. Funding has to occur for these digs to occur and by no means are those funds being used to line the pockets of archaeologists. For example, a site that began being excavated when I was a student continues to be dug upon for one semester in the summer by students from my college. The local power plant actually funds the dig. There is no money play or secret conspiracies out there driving archaeologists to wage war with metal detectorists. The one thing archaeology is not about is money.

You're missing the real point that was made....which is simply this, "without money there would be no official archeology." No shovel grunts, none of it. No archeologist is going to do it as a full time career for free. So once all the smoke and mirrors are removed, "it all comes down to money. PERIOD!" The growth of archeology is dependent on money. "Every aspect of the required labor and management comes down to money." A small business or enterprise requires money, a larger one requires more money. None of it could function without money. You said, "The one thing archeology is not about is money." Nothing is further from the truth. Without money/funding paying jobs in archeology don't exist. The more labor, preservation, and management required, the more money/funding needed. "It all comes down to money."

"The one thing archeology is not about is money." If this is true, then let us take all the money away and let's see what happens.