Are newer machines the key to older coins ?

[Jazdo]

Hi all.. I have been detectin since the mid 80s,and have wanted a new detector since the mid 90s,but have always
put it on the backburner due to various reasons. My first machine which I still use some is a INCA,followed by a
Golden Sabre II in 93 I think LOL..

My ? is are the newer machines with Target ID and all the bells and whistles really worth it ? I mean I have
found 1880 coins on top of ground and memorial cents at 6 inches so why all the depth issues?

The deepest old coin I have dug was a Barber Half at almost 7 inches other than that its 4-6 for the most part.
Maybe I am missing alot huh..

Soil condition probably has some to do with machines and depths,but no 2 machines are really the same
anyhow.

I am thinking a Tejon mainly because of reviews and the dual disc. followed by depth capabilities. Plus I
really wouldnt think of changin brands.I dont think Tesoro is topped by anyone.

So lets hear some responses.First hand accounts from people that have newer machines,and input
from THers like me who have used old school machines forever LOL

 

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[Digger]

Another type #1 here.

Allow me broaden your detecting thought process for a second. I live in southwest Kansas. Unfortunately, our history is rather short compared to many other US locations. Fortunately, I happen to live in a very historically rich part of Kansas. I have been swinging a detector here for near 30 years, and have hunted virtually every lot in town with every imaginable detector. Needless to say I have made some incredible finds in the last 30 years, but the best have been in the last 6 years.

I have filled many many containers with old coins through the years, and sold even more. My first 20 years I would sell all my gold and silver every 3 months. Boy do I regret selling that stuff, but what ya going to do? Anyway, It would be hard pressed for anyone to find a location I haven't already hit many times. I don't dare to imply that I found it all, but lets just say you would either need an very good detector, and be very good with it, or be awful lucky to make these place produce. So yes, I do very well understand the value of a very good detector.

So, if you're looking for gold only you want a machine that handles the higher frequencies. Hence, the Fisher Gold Bug at 71 kHz, and PI units, but let's not get into PI units as most of us do not want to do old coin hunting in trashy sites on land with a PI.

Southwest Kansas does not have gold bearing soil nor does it have beaches, yet gold is one of my main treats, having cleaned most of the old coins. A gold detector would be virtually useless in my hunting conditions. Enter the high end programmable detector. When I want to get serious and search for those deep missed old coins, my high end detector does the job. When I want to pick the gold and leave the trash, my high end detector does the job. When I'm out for a leisurely cherry picking good time, my high end detector is up for the job.

Several years ago I bought a new Minelab SE in hopes it would live up to its reputation for deep silver. It did, but in our mild Kansas soil, it didn't find anything my DFX couldn't on a head to head in the field test. I could tell the SE had a slight advantage on the deep silver, but not enough to warrant using it over my DFX. My DFX had far better target ID resolution, and much better sensitivity to gold. I have no doubts that Minelab can get the job done, but it does seem weak in the small gold area. Chains, pendents and small rings.

 

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[U.K. Brian]

As "older coins" is specifically mentioned in the title of this post perhaps it should be asked why old hands such as Jimmy "Sierra" Normandi choose to use only the 15 kHz frequency when they come to England. After all our finds go back three thousand years not a few hundred.

The Fisher twin frequency machines never performed to well on our soil. Most stick with the higher frequency with the DFX. The Explorer and Sovereign users almost all have a XP/T2/F75/Tejon or similar single frequency detector for the iron infested sites and plough soil where multifrequency means very slow searching and to much nulling.

All the old "truths" that did apply to the IB/TR and early VLF's don't have to apply any longer with improve circuit and coil design. I think Dave Johnson brings this up in the interview he did. So newer machines do have their advantages but new is being defined as tripple or multifrequency which is not true.

 

[Nick A]

Brian, thanks for the additional info. A perfect example of different types of machines excelling in different hunting conditions with differing targets. I think this was a USA based question, but you certainly have a point that UK conditions and targets require a different mindset.

Most in the USA would be excited to recover "older" coins from the Victorian-era 1837-1901, it seems the bulk of UK detectorists see these as "modern" coins.

As you observed, the typical hunting condtions in the UK vary as well, "iron infested sites and plough soil" and I agree, the detectors I have success with in parks, schools and home sites here in the USA may not be appropriate for those conditions. I have had great success here in the midwest USA with the Fisher dual frequency machines and the FBS detectors but you report that these same machines are less successful in the UK, "where multifrequency means very slow searching and to much nulling."

At least for detecting in the midwest USA, I think the "newer" dual/triple/multiple frequency machines do provide a clear advantage over single frequency machines.

The good info I get from this is that if I were regularly hunting iron infested or ploughed fields, I may want to consider another type of machine, perhaps even a single frequency 15kHz machine to improve my results.

 

[dirtyJohn]

I believe the frequency arguments do not apply to modern detectors as much as the older analog machines, since most of the processing is done through the circuitry now. There are so many factors that go in to making good finds that it would be impossible to list them all because of an infinite amount of variables. Some machines get great depth but are practically useless in nail pits due to slow processor speed causing constant nulling. I also hear people say they love to hunt after a rain because they get greater depth (which is true) but if you hunt a nail pit after it rains, you're not going to find anything no matter what detector you are using.
On my detector the VDI and tone ID are not tied together giving me more clues as to what's underneath my coil. I can get a clean tone and a bouncing VDI due to the close proximity of iron. Those kind of clues will increase finds. Since I've never dug 100 holes on any hunt and don't ever plan on doing that, I like the features of more modern detectors.
The amount of finds you make can be attributed to having a less sophisticated detector, causing you to investigate more targets just out of plain curiosity or maybe you just have a killer sight. The amount of finds you make as opposed to someone else means nothing if the hunters and the sites are not equal to begin with.
Knowing where to hunt and when to hunt and how to hunt an area will get you more finds with a moderately priced detector
than an inexperienced guy will get with the latest greatest machine. Do your research, keep your sweep speed slow and the coil low and learn your machine and the finds will follow.
HH
John

 

[U.K. Brian]

John's post is interesting and I totally agree with the comments about frequency. In IB/TR days you picked a low frequency for depth (especially on larger coins/items) or a higher frequency one for better discrimination. Thus Garrett produced two Master Hunter machines....the Deepseeker at 5 kHz and the Groundhog at 15 kHz.

Now in ground results can be the exact opposite or you can pick a machine with a reasonable balance between the extremes.

I was interested about the comment that the T2 VDI and tones are not linked because I always considered that that was the advantage of the F75 over the T2 ie the Fisher has its processing modes independant from the tone I.D. I don't know how others who have tried both think about this.

One point I do disagree with is the "slow and low" comment that is so often made on forums. Using a four filter detector slow is just what you don't want as it costs both depth and discrimination. The same should apply to those machines that have adjustable filtering if high filters are selected.
"Low" would seem a given as your getting the coil as near to the target as possible but again there's other considerations, in this case bad ground will defeat the slight advantage of the tiny targets giving a slightly greater response as the much large soil response from the whole "live" area of the coil more than outweighs any advantage. On some sites higher will be better.

 

[ivan salis]

theres a very good reason for the 3 /15 combo range on the DFX --- 3 for depth --15 for finding small gold and iding reasons * --- the reason you can "find" new stuff in what folks in the old days would call a "hunted out spot" is while it might be or have been "pounded" to death at the older freqs -- many new machines run at differant freqs that the older ones or at multi freqs -- thus allowing one a fresh look at the same ground --what might have been too deep for 15 is findible to 3 lets say ---what looks to be a junk item to a 3 however will ID as a good item to 15 --- by using 3 to hunt things you get better depth --and 15 to id with you get get better ID and small targets . --- the older machines were one freq only (my daddy had a "groundhog" ran at 15 )--so it was pick your posion--- however older machines can still work very well in skilled hands. ---and skill counts for a lot --- but in equally skilled hands the new multi freqs machines do have a "edge"

for junky nail pit --iron areas -- lots of old timers swore by compass machines

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Wow, good reading Loonnggg thread! I'm gonna have to side with the folks who say that the "newer machines" ARE the key to finding the older coins. And specifically side with those saying the Explorer (and other Minelabs) are one such "newer machine" that, yes, gets deeper/older. Believe me, I'm as STUBBORN as they come. I just couldn't be made to believe that worked-out parks could be done any better than with my trusty Whites.

It wasn't till I went side-by-side, in a park known for silver at very deep depths, that it became clear that the Explorer trounced anything that the most powerful Whites could do. I had to admit "there must be something to this". I would try and try, criss-cross and criss-cross all the signals this guy flagged. But I had to admit, I just couldn't call it as well as he and his machine. He wasn't "weak on deep bent nails", wasn't weak on calling depth, etc.... Believe me, I had ample time to fiddle with settings, re-balance, swing all different ways and speeds, and coming from decades of experience, I had to confess that hearing what he was hearing, there was just something more concise and powerful coming out of his Explorer. Even then, after breaking down and buying one, I still hated it! The tooty-fluty tones drove me nuts, all the tone-rules learned from years on previous machines had to go "out the door" and be re-learned. But once you get the "tune", the "lights go on" and you're hooked!

Yes there are some environments where I grab for other units (I keep a 2-filter on hand for iron-riddled urban demo's and ghost-town type sites). But for the other 95% of my hunting, I have greatly increased my goodies with the Explorer. And as far as relying on TID accuracy, it's as the others in this thread have been saying: it's all in the odds: Sure, if you never ever ever want to miss anything, then get yourself a pulse machine, and dig everything (including paper clips, birdshot, etc...). Afterall, they might be a tinsel thin chain, or a nail masking something, etc..... I mean, c'mon! how silly can we be? It's like playing black-jack: do you hold or take another hit when you have 20? Why not take another hit? Afterall, the next card MIGHT be a one card, right?

It just depends on the hunting environment, and goals, if the "newer machine" is the better choice. But most of the time, given the operator proficiency, the newer machine does better.

 

[Youngladd]

I don't think that any of the newer detectors built in 2009 will find any more than the detectors made in 1992.......... in your mind yes ... in reality no.... there merchandising and advertising are good and you fall for it.......................... Also i know a lot of hunters that find old & deep coins with older detectors that don't cost a arm and a leg ... Oh yes and they are not all Minelabs...............

I have never used a minelab But I disagree with your statement, the notion that 2009 machines are not any better that 1992 machines just cant be true. While it may be true that an experienced person can find old coins with an old machine. The newer machines haven't been around long enough for anyone to get 17 years of experience and STILL they get very impressive results. I have seen many many posts where the etrac and SE produce incredible results. Skill is important but don't put too much value on your old timer skill and don't ignore new technology, don't take my word for it, look at the results.

 

[Cappy Z.]

I don't think that any of the newer detectors built in 2009 will find any more than the detectors made in 1992.......... in your mind yes ... in reality no.... there merchandising and advertising are good and you fall for it.......................... Also i know a lot of hunters that find old & deep coins with older detectors that don't cost a arm and a leg ... Oh yes and they are not all Minelabs...............

I have never used a minelab But I disagree with your statement, the notion that 2009 machines are not any better that 1992 machines just cant be true. While it may be true that an experienced person can find old coins with an old machine. The newer machines haven't been around long enough for anyone to get 17 years of experience and STILL they get very impressive results. I have seen many many posts where the etrac and SE produce incredible results. Skill is important but don't put too much value on your old timer skill and don't ignore new technology, don't take my word for it, look at the results.

Agreed. If I could buy a machine that detects down in wet sand to 30 inches and ID's a gold coin..I'd pay $3000. cash for it. Period.

 

[Nick A]

One point I do disagree with is the "slow and low" comment that is so often made on forums. Using a four filter detector slow is just what you don't want as it costs both depth and discrimination. The same should apply to those machines that have adjustable filtering if high filters are selected.

I find that slow and low is the way to go with the E-Trac and Explorer, at least in my experience in the midwest USA. I have always kept the coil as low to the ground as possible with all detectors I have used. I just get a "pip" of a signal (something small at depth) and then I hone in on it and usually it improves if it is good. If you go fast, you do not hear these "pips" - I know, I've tried it. They disappear if I sweep fast over them.

I just detected a very well hunted park with my E-Trac on Sunday with 4 other guys. One had a White's, the others all had E-Trac or Explorers. They all hunt faster than me, one guy was even arc-ing his coil upwards at the end of his sweeps I scanned an area, turned up an older coin, so I stayed in the area, working slowly. I got four old coins, the other guys were all over the park, and all had modern coins and some modern silver jewelry... nothing old.

And the previous day in this same park, with these same methods, I dug my best and oldest coin in 19 years detecting. (I even made the banner) No doubt in my mind that: Experience (and/or good technique) + New machine = Old coins

Just click on the banner finds and see what machines these people are using... I just took a small sample of old US coin finds from the first two or three pages of the banner to see what the results were: 11 Minelabs, 5 White's, 1 Fisher. Makes you wonder.

 

[maceman66]

My mom can beat up your mom!!!!!!!!!! LOL I have been using a Whites for a number of years and have hunted side by side with a few different machines and can say from my experience that my XLT can be just as good as a Minelab on any given day, yes there are days when i get beat but theres just as many days as i do the beating, i think alot of it is soil conditions,moisture, atmospheric conditions, etc that plays a big part in detecting!! Just my opinion!! Some of us just dont feel the need to brag!!!

 

[Nick A]

My mom can beat up your mom!!!!!!!!!! LOL I have been using a Whites for a number of years and have hunted side by side with a few different machines and can say from my experience that my XLT can be just as good as a Minelab on any given day, yes there are days when i get beat but theres just as many days as i do the beating, i think alot of it is soil conditions,moisture, atmospheric conditions, etc that plays a big part in detecting!! Just my opinion!! Some of us just dont feel the need to brag!!!

I was not putting down White's machines at all, I'm sorry if you read it that way. In my example, 3 other guys were using Minelab machines and they didn't make any old finds either! I was more commenting that technique/experience, and good practices (my defense of slow and low) make the difference in squeaking out a few more coins from a hunted out site.

 

[U.K. Brian]

Here we go again Nick "Best Practise" !!!

You sweep low and slow because you have a detector that needs that. Try it with four filter (or more) machines and you throw performance out the window.

You find out what filters your detector uses (if any, some don't) and have to select a sweep speed to match. Some detectors allow a choice, others appear to, (the Compass Varifilter) but thats a bit of a con as its three filter, so allows faster than a two filter and slower than a four, but is not variable.

I have Minelab, Whites, Troy, XP etc etc and you can't get round the fact that you have to fit your detecting style to the machines basic design. Now if you try an XLT you will think its really poor as you will use it like your Minelab. Now I would always give the edge to an Explorer over an XLT on pure depth but you have to consider whether the gain of an inch or two in depth is going to outway the fact the XLT user will have covered twice as much ground in the same detecting period.

Then we will return again to the "good practise" low coil sweep. BBS/FBS and Pulse doesn't like to much air between soil and coil. Many other detectors though will benefit from a raised coil especially if the ground mineralisation has become high enough that the detector is having difficulty in coping. You either raise the coil, swap to a smaller coil or switch coil type.

If you don't you lose performance, its as easy as that.

 

[Jazdo]

All this has me itchin for a new machine !

One thing I will mention is at the street tear out site which macemann66,markiniowa,and I hunted
a while back (posts are viewable on tnet) we all used diff detectors. Whites,Minelab,Tesoro. We all
missed coins that the other guy found by switching spots. Which is gonna happen,but I think there
was only one of the guys that found a old nickel.

On the other hand I found almost a dozen old ones. Does that mean they were only looking at
certain numbers on their machine,or something else ?

 

[Silver crazy]

I like showing off what i find there is nothing wrong with that, even though i don't find much ha ha.

 

[scrounger d detector collector]

i sure enjoyed reading this post. esp the freq discussion.

i own the etrac and see how it finds deep coins.

in my case copper coins only.

im now at 32 wheat cents and 2 indians.NO SILVER . etrac anniv date sep9

i must admit the 2 indians would not have been found WITH MY TESORO.

AS THE ETRAC BARELY GOT THEM.

maybe my pounded park can beat your pounded park

into the extremely pounded park category.

then again i usually only hunt 1.5 hours possibly 2.

after that im beat. old n fat

 

[NiagracountyNY]

I don't think that any of the newer detectors built in 2009 will find any more than the detectors made in 1992.......... in your mind yes ... in reality no.... there merchandising and advertising are good and you fall for it.......................... Also i know a lot of hunters that find old & deep coins with older detectors that don't cost a arm and a leg ... Oh yes and they are not all Minelabs...............

I couldnt Disagree More...I have used many Detectors...I still have a few..I can run them side by side..The old whites and the gti 2500 dont even come CLOSE to the depth or target ID of my explorerSE or my E-Trac...I didnt FALL FOR anything but Deeper Holes and signals i had been walking over that these other machines couldnt even PICK up.when i went over my yard that i hunted 200 times with every detector i have owned..The pile of coins i pulled out would make you re think that statement..Its not advertising and smoke screens theyare selling...This is 2009...The New Computer driven proccesors walk circles around the old machines..This is my personal opinion,But i think if you read all the forums..You may agree.

 

[U.K. Brian]

Does this mean you think that Minelab might win the G.N.R.S. competition this year ?

 

[Digger]

I think winning at the GNRS has a lot to do with luck and user skill, and not that much with which detector works best.

 

[AUDuke]

Why do you Minelab users keep trying to convert ordinary detector users over? There is already enough competition among ourselves. Just let them think they are getting the deep stuff and leave the really deep stuff for us ML owners.