Buried Pirate Treasure in Panama
treasurediver
Full Member
- Mar 13, 2005
- 176
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Reading this report it would seem that the newspaper article that we discussed earlier, might be a distorted version. As if the journalist had taken considerable liberties in his writings.
I may have wrongly accused the archaeologists and apologize for that.
I may have wrongly accused the archaeologists and apologize for that.
BillA
Bronze Member
well written, far preferable to the florid adventurer prattle
back to the detector in a shoe (joke)
back to the detector in a shoe (joke)
perdidogringo
Sr. Member
- Apr 21, 2011
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Excellent find, Treasure Diver! There's some interesting info. on the archeology of Morgan's Panama raid that I hadn't come across in other sources. In particular:
These efforts resulted in the discovery of the foundations for the perimeter walls of the Cabildo and the remains of the flight of stone stairs that led to the upper floor (Brizuela 1996a, 1996b). On the turn of the stairs to the upper level the excavation team documented the first and only archaeological evidence of the massive fire that is supposed to have destroyed the town.Below the modern earthen surface they first found a stratum composed of debris from a fallen roof: many fragments of bricks, roof tiles, wrought iron nails, and very few ceramics in a soil and ash matrix. Directly underneath the debris level of the fallen roof and upper floor was the third stratum, composed entirely of soil and ash, representing the burned remains as a result of the fire that destroyed the building during the pirate attack ofJanuary 28, 1671. The major find on this level was an iron sword now on display at the onsite museum (figure 6.5). Directly beneath the ash level was the stair stone floor, which was blackened by the fire and ash. The masonry walls at the back of the Cabildo and parts of the cobble floors also showed darkened spots, evidence of the fire that took down the building and supposedly the entire town.
In the fifteen years of continuous archaeological excavations at Panamá Viejo since then, these remain the only direct traces of Morgan’s attack and the fire that ensued.
... It seems odd that in a late seventeenth century wooden town that suffered major fires and continued to suffer them throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries (even when it moved to its new location in SanFelipe) none of the structures around or next to the Cabildo burned down, even when the Cabildo and the cathedral did. These were the most representative buildings of the church and state in the city and obvious targets for the pirates. Yet for all the stories about the conflagration that supposedly destroyed the entire city, no hard evidence has yet to be found of a widespread fire that affected buildings beyond those belonging to the colonial or ecclesiastic authorities (figure 6.6). This contradicts the Spanish account that Morgan burned down the entire city and lends more credence to Morgan’s report of trying to put out the flames that the Spanish started upon their retreat...
Last edited:
perdidogringo
Sr. Member
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Thank, Kanacki but I can't take credit for those conclusions (although they also make sense to me). The italicized text in my last post is from the study that Treasure Diver shared a few messages ago.
Last edited:
BillA
Bronze Member
archaeological confirmation of what has been said for years, Morgan did not fire the city
KANACKI
Bronze Member
- Mar 1, 2015
- 1,445
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- All Treasure Hunting
Hello Atodisco
First of all thank you for starting this interesting thread. And thank everyone else contributed to it. So please forgive my long winded post.
I imagine you will have a wonderful project and adventure ahead. And would like to see you achieve the dream.
Its a preconditioning of human kind to go forth and try to better ones circumstances in life. While many are content with their lot, others are desiring to dream of bigger and better things.
Why do some chose to search for treasure is perhaps the mystique of it all? Daring to dream against the odds. Perhaps no different than hardened gamblers 3 am in morning gambling their last dollar away on the vain hope of making it big.
Some say its just a for the escapism from the every day grind? While some say its the journey and not the destination that matters in part is true? However that is fine when you have no commitments and obligations only to yourself and no one else.
While by all means follow your dreams treasure hunting can give you an incredible adventure as I can personally attest to it like flying on a magic carpet ride. You will encounter adventure and misadventure with the highs and lows. If you live the dream you will never feel so alive. And life will never seem the same again.
But does the dream pays the bills?
So this is why I feel to at least mention some hard truths about treasure hunting.
Treasure hunting is a very hard mistress or master to please. Forget about the romantic notions of Hollywood and even of lasted crop of so called Documentaries conjure up on the subject. Treasure hunting is very hard graft and the horrible reality 99 % of treasure hunting projects will fail to generate wealth.
It can be a hard and expensive learning curve. Yet if you learn your lessons well and the treasure hunting gods might shine down upon you fortune and glory may fall on you. However to gain any chance of success you have to be aware of some realizations if you want to succeed.
First you have to determine what you are your intentions. For example
Research Treasure legend for a book or film part commercial, part altruistic?
Research treasure legend for adventure and altruistic intentions?
Research treasure legend for commercial gain?
One ask oneself how far you are willing to push yourselves. Where is point enough is enough? For example how far you are prepared to stray between legal and illegal?
How far are you willing commit your money into your project. Ask yourself if you cannot commit your own money into a project? How can you expect others to commit theirs?
The secret to being a very successful treasure hunter is understanding why some people are rich and others are poor?
For a very basic example of 2 brothers “A” and “B”
“A” and “B” had the same job with the same amount of pay. However over time “A” sacrificed 10% of his income every week to create assets. “B” over time spent is 10% on needless items that lost value over time and created liabilities. “A” built up assets over time that gave him multiple incomes. “B” so tied up with liabilities could not generate assets because he was hamstrung by liabilities. “A” no longer needed to rely on his Job more more as his assets was generating income for him. “B” became more trapped as his liabilities kept him in a cycle of debt and made him more and more enslaved to his job.
“A” had become wealthy “B” had stayed poor
The key is successful money management.
For example Rich people can distinguish better the difference between an “asset “ and a “liability” than poor people. It is the key factor between rich and poor. Anyone seriously looking to succeed in treasure hunting or any mining or deep sea salvage enterprise must use the exact same principles.
For example there is no point in wasting your time and effort into a treasure legend that is more a liability than a potential asset? So you have to be very ruthless and clinical in determining the treasure story is question has any merit to begin with? Perhaps 95% of stories would fail under serious scrutiny. While others do have evidence to suggest there might be some thing there?.
The next hurdle is practicality and cost. For example what was once wilderness is now a super market under urban sprawl is going to be a hard if not impossible sell the idea to get permission to dig. Therefore regardless if there is some thing there or not it is going to be a liability?
For another example you find a lost gold mine but the cost of extraction exceeds the value of gold extracted. Liability?
A sunken ship carrying 5 million dollars at the bottom of the deep ocean. Vessel charter, permits salvage, legal costs that exceed the value of the treasure. Liability?
Type of treasure recovered etc.... Can be Liability?
For example an object being cultural patrimony is that does not have provenance predating 1972 is a liability?
Legality of the find can be liability?
Converting discovered assets into liquid currency can be a liability?
Question of Legal ownership liability?
Removing the asset from one country to next liability?
Dealing with government with corrupt institutions is a liability?
Dealing with land owners liability?
Investors expectations are liabilities?
Breaches of non disclosure agreements by interested party's liability?
Even Publicity is a liability?
See a pattern here? I can tell a story for each one of the above after many long years researching and experience.
Wealthy people invest in “assets” not “liabilities” poor people invest in liabilities. So that principle should be kept in mind if one is considering to commit themselves to a serious treasure hunting project regardless if they are after investors or in bank rolling the project themselves. So for a project to be viable you need to address those liabilities.
For many people in the English World believe treasure hunting is like in movies you run off into foreign country, do what you want without locals catching on to what your about and you have a great adventure finding treasure and running off into the sunset rich beyond compare. If only that was true.
I cannot count the amount of people that approached the trio over the years with potential projects all over the globe but with no understanding of the liabilities that needed to be addressed. While to be fair everyone and I mean everyone including myself goes through that a simplistic view of having a metal detector, map and shovel will travel, A rather naive outlook until reality kicks in.
So if your intentions is just documentary then you do not need real treasure hunters involved.or a great expense of Lidar is only a tool to assist not a magic bullet. Real treasure hunters rarely commit themselves to media exposure, why? Because its bad for business and future business. You can hire actors preferable a bit of eye candy and flog off a documentary to Discovery or history Channel. Hell you do not even need to be historically accurate any more. It not like Discovery or history channel vets what is present to them. You can have a wonderful adventure filming in Porto Bello and old Panama without the hassles and have as many selfies to your hearts content.
If you want to search and recover treasure for real its a whole different ball game. A real dance between smoke and mirrors keeping the vultures at bay. And certainty one would not be posting on a forum leaving any possible perceived incriminating evidence that could be used by those seeking their own ideological agenda against your efforts.
Once again this advice is not discourage anyone from having an adventure. But just giving you some free sound hard learned lessons of what problems you could face.
Kanacki
First of all thank you for starting this interesting thread. And thank everyone else contributed to it. So please forgive my long winded post.
I imagine you will have a wonderful project and adventure ahead. And would like to see you achieve the dream.
Its a preconditioning of human kind to go forth and try to better ones circumstances in life. While many are content with their lot, others are desiring to dream of bigger and better things.
Why do some chose to search for treasure is perhaps the mystique of it all? Daring to dream against the odds. Perhaps no different than hardened gamblers 3 am in morning gambling their last dollar away on the vain hope of making it big.
Some say its just a for the escapism from the every day grind? While some say its the journey and not the destination that matters in part is true? However that is fine when you have no commitments and obligations only to yourself and no one else.
While by all means follow your dreams treasure hunting can give you an incredible adventure as I can personally attest to it like flying on a magic carpet ride. You will encounter adventure and misadventure with the highs and lows. If you live the dream you will never feel so alive. And life will never seem the same again.
But does the dream pays the bills?
So this is why I feel to at least mention some hard truths about treasure hunting.
Treasure hunting is a very hard mistress or master to please. Forget about the romantic notions of Hollywood and even of lasted crop of so called Documentaries conjure up on the subject. Treasure hunting is very hard graft and the horrible reality 99 % of treasure hunting projects will fail to generate wealth.
It can be a hard and expensive learning curve. Yet if you learn your lessons well and the treasure hunting gods might shine down upon you fortune and glory may fall on you. However to gain any chance of success you have to be aware of some realizations if you want to succeed.
First you have to determine what you are your intentions. For example
Research Treasure legend for a book or film part commercial, part altruistic?
Research treasure legend for adventure and altruistic intentions?
Research treasure legend for commercial gain?
One ask oneself how far you are willing to push yourselves. Where is point enough is enough? For example how far you are prepared to stray between legal and illegal?
How far are you willing commit your money into your project. Ask yourself if you cannot commit your own money into a project? How can you expect others to commit theirs?
The secret to being a very successful treasure hunter is understanding why some people are rich and others are poor?
For a very basic example of 2 brothers “A” and “B”
“A” and “B” had the same job with the same amount of pay. However over time “A” sacrificed 10% of his income every week to create assets. “B” over time spent is 10% on needless items that lost value over time and created liabilities. “A” built up assets over time that gave him multiple incomes. “B” so tied up with liabilities could not generate assets because he was hamstrung by liabilities. “A” no longer needed to rely on his Job more more as his assets was generating income for him. “B” became more trapped as his liabilities kept him in a cycle of debt and made him more and more enslaved to his job.
“A” had become wealthy “B” had stayed poor
The key is successful money management.
For example Rich people can distinguish better the difference between an “asset “ and a “liability” than poor people. It is the key factor between rich and poor. Anyone seriously looking to succeed in treasure hunting or any mining or deep sea salvage enterprise must use the exact same principles.
For example there is no point in wasting your time and effort into a treasure legend that is more a liability than a potential asset? So you have to be very ruthless and clinical in determining the treasure story is question has any merit to begin with? Perhaps 95% of stories would fail under serious scrutiny. While others do have evidence to suggest there might be some thing there?.
The next hurdle is practicality and cost. For example what was once wilderness is now a super market under urban sprawl is going to be a hard if not impossible sell the idea to get permission to dig. Therefore regardless if there is some thing there or not it is going to be a liability?
For another example you find a lost gold mine but the cost of extraction exceeds the value of gold extracted. Liability?
A sunken ship carrying 5 million dollars at the bottom of the deep ocean. Vessel charter, permits salvage, legal costs that exceed the value of the treasure. Liability?
Type of treasure recovered etc.... Can be Liability?
For example an object being cultural patrimony is that does not have provenance predating 1972 is a liability?
Legality of the find can be liability?
Converting discovered assets into liquid currency can be a liability?
Question of Legal ownership liability?
Removing the asset from one country to next liability?
Dealing with government with corrupt institutions is a liability?
Dealing with land owners liability?
Investors expectations are liabilities?
Breaches of non disclosure agreements by interested party's liability?
Even Publicity is a liability?
See a pattern here? I can tell a story for each one of the above after many long years researching and experience.
Wealthy people invest in “assets” not “liabilities” poor people invest in liabilities. So that principle should be kept in mind if one is considering to commit themselves to a serious treasure hunting project regardless if they are after investors or in bank rolling the project themselves. So for a project to be viable you need to address those liabilities.
For many people in the English World believe treasure hunting is like in movies you run off into foreign country, do what you want without locals catching on to what your about and you have a great adventure finding treasure and running off into the sunset rich beyond compare. If only that was true.
I cannot count the amount of people that approached the trio over the years with potential projects all over the globe but with no understanding of the liabilities that needed to be addressed. While to be fair everyone and I mean everyone including myself goes through that a simplistic view of having a metal detector, map and shovel will travel, A rather naive outlook until reality kicks in.
So if your intentions is just documentary then you do not need real treasure hunters involved.or a great expense of Lidar is only a tool to assist not a magic bullet. Real treasure hunters rarely commit themselves to media exposure, why? Because its bad for business and future business. You can hire actors preferable a bit of eye candy and flog off a documentary to Discovery or history Channel. Hell you do not even need to be historically accurate any more. It not like Discovery or history channel vets what is present to them. You can have a wonderful adventure filming in Porto Bello and old Panama without the hassles and have as many selfies to your hearts content.
If you want to search and recover treasure for real its a whole different ball game. A real dance between smoke and mirrors keeping the vultures at bay. And certainty one would not be posting on a forum leaving any possible perceived incriminating evidence that could be used by those seeking their own ideological agenda against your efforts.
Once again this advice is not discourage anyone from having an adventure. But just giving you some free sound hard learned lessons of what problems you could face.
Kanacki
perdidogringo
Sr. Member
- Apr 21, 2011
- 411
- 927
- Detector(s) used
- Equinox 900, Fisher CZ-21, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Loved your post, Kanacki! I wish there was some way we could make it a sticky.
BillA
Bronze Member
Hi Atodisco, going to digress for a bit with
Kanacki
Really like your liability list, with FAR less experience I too could describe an incidence of each.
No real problem because my motivation was my entertainment, I always was a winner. (Do stay out of prison.)
Bill
Kanacki
Really like your liability list, with FAR less experience I too could describe an incidence of each.
No real problem because my motivation was my entertainment, I always was a winner. (Do stay out of prison.)
Bill
Colombiapictures
Full Member
- May 7, 2010
- 123
- 71
A good and proper business plan takes care of all that. Do the due diligence and then look at the bottom line. Don't cheat in the business plan.
The bottom line will tell it all.
The bottom line will tell it all.
BillA
Bronze Member
a business plan is a presentation of a hypothetical sequence of events
due diligence ? Tommy Thompson was an honest man
the bottom line is called 'bait'
keywords: Morgan, silver
due diligence ? Tommy Thompson was an honest man
the bottom line is called 'bait'
keywords: Morgan, silver
Colombiapictures
Full Member
- May 7, 2010
- 123
- 71
Greed is like a cancer in the mind. Greed is the cause of 90% of the failures in treasure hunting.
perdidogringo
Sr. Member
- Apr 21, 2011
- 411
- 927
- Detector(s) used
- Equinox 900, Fisher CZ-21, Garrett Pro-Pointer AT
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Interesting
Not sure if you guys have seen this study from 2009 but it talks a lot about the things we discussed earlier in this thread concerning the various wrecks along Lajas reef and the archeology of the San Lorenzo/Chagres area.
https://www.academia.edu/5799679/Reconnaissance_Mouth_of_the_RĂo_Chagres_Panama
You have to sign up to but the basic membership is free. You can then download it.
Robert Marx gets a mention and claims Morgan's ships were salvaged by 1970:
Treasure hunter Robert F. Marx reported in 2004 that he had discovered the remains of Morgan‟s ships in 1954, had recovered materials from them, and later returned to find the wrecks had been removed in 1970:
"In 1954, when I was a diver and salvage expert in the U.S. Marine Corps, I was in Panama for a short time and looked for the Oxford. I had, as a guide, a copy of an old manuscript with a chart showing the position where all five of Morgan‟s ships were wrecked in 1670. The reef, with waves breaking over it, was easy to find and so were vestiges of the pirate wrecks embedded in it. In quite shallow water I found 128 iron and 16 bronze cannon, 22 large anchors, thousands of cannon balls and tons of lead and iron ingots — most likely used as ballast. Also in evidence were hundreds of rum and wine bottles, some still full. I spent an exciting five days digging in the reef and discovered many artifacts from Morgan‟s ships — from small pewter 32 buckles to muskets as long as a man‟s body. The only piece of treasure I found was a gold pocket watch inscribed “James Moore, 1657.” Eighteen years passed before I was able to return to Panama with a salvage vessel to explore Morgan‟s wrecks further. Anticipation turned to disillusionment when I found nothing but deep holes in the coral reef where salvors had used explosives to dislodge the cannon and anchors. I learned from fishermen that, two years earlier, divers from California had salvaged all five of the ships. I wonder if they even realized that they were on Henry Morgan‟s shipwrecks!" (Marx 2004:136).
Even this forum gets quoted in the paper!
In August 2001, an online posting by “whaywood” in the forum treasurenet.com talked ofa “circa 1700 wreck:
”just for information.... Treasure Quest Panama with West Indies Ltd.have started the salvage of an unknown wreck near the mouth of theChagres River. All work is being done under contract and directionof the Ministry of Culture (INAC). Early recoveries consisted ofchest of sword blades, mule shoes, ax heads and scissors in leatherpouches. One iron gun of approx 5ft in length was also recovered.Speculation is that the wreck was inbound from Europe.(http://treasurenet.com/forum/shipwrecks/archives/20011102/messages/1002385.shtml)A follow-up, posted by “Sport Diver” on September 3, 2001, said, “From a surveyconducted in 1999 this wreck has been tentatively identified as the 'Toledo' which sailedfrom Spain with supplies. Not much treasure.”(http://treasurenet.com/forum/shipwrecks/archives/20011102/messages/1002392.shtml)
Not sure if you guys have seen this study from 2009 but it talks a lot about the things we discussed earlier in this thread concerning the various wrecks along Lajas reef and the archeology of the San Lorenzo/Chagres area.
https://www.academia.edu/5799679/Reconnaissance_Mouth_of_the_RĂo_Chagres_Panama
You have to sign up to but the basic membership is free. You can then download it.
Robert Marx gets a mention and claims Morgan's ships were salvaged by 1970:
Treasure hunter Robert F. Marx reported in 2004 that he had discovered the remains of Morgan‟s ships in 1954, had recovered materials from them, and later returned to find the wrecks had been removed in 1970:
"In 1954, when I was a diver and salvage expert in the U.S. Marine Corps, I was in Panama for a short time and looked for the Oxford. I had, as a guide, a copy of an old manuscript with a chart showing the position where all five of Morgan‟s ships were wrecked in 1670. The reef, with waves breaking over it, was easy to find and so were vestiges of the pirate wrecks embedded in it. In quite shallow water I found 128 iron and 16 bronze cannon, 22 large anchors, thousands of cannon balls and tons of lead and iron ingots — most likely used as ballast. Also in evidence were hundreds of rum and wine bottles, some still full. I spent an exciting five days digging in the reef and discovered many artifacts from Morgan‟s ships — from small pewter 32 buckles to muskets as long as a man‟s body. The only piece of treasure I found was a gold pocket watch inscribed “James Moore, 1657.” Eighteen years passed before I was able to return to Panama with a salvage vessel to explore Morgan‟s wrecks further. Anticipation turned to disillusionment when I found nothing but deep holes in the coral reef where salvors had used explosives to dislodge the cannon and anchors. I learned from fishermen that, two years earlier, divers from California had salvaged all five of the ships. I wonder if they even realized that they were on Henry Morgan‟s shipwrecks!" (Marx 2004:136).
Even this forum gets quoted in the paper!
In August 2001, an online posting by “whaywood” in the forum treasurenet.com talked ofa “circa 1700 wreck:
”just for information.... Treasure Quest Panama with West Indies Ltd.have started the salvage of an unknown wreck near the mouth of theChagres River. All work is being done under contract and directionof the Ministry of Culture (INAC). Early recoveries consisted ofchest of sword blades, mule shoes, ax heads and scissors in leatherpouches. One iron gun of approx 5ft in length was also recovered.Speculation is that the wreck was inbound from Europe.(http://treasurenet.com/forum/shipwrecks/archives/20011102/messages/1002385.shtml)A follow-up, posted by “Sport Diver” on September 3, 2001, said, “From a surveyconducted in 1999 this wreck has been tentatively identified as the 'Toledo' which sailedfrom Spain with supplies. Not much treasure.”(http://treasurenet.com/forum/shipwrecks/archives/20011102/messages/1002392.shtml)
Last edited:
Colombiapictures
Full Member
- May 7, 2010
- 123
- 71
May he rest in peace.
treasurediver
Full Member
- Mar 13, 2005
- 176
- 263
Connecting the dots......
In this thread we have connected Panama with Henry Morgan and Henry Morgan with Captain Morgan's Rum.
The Buccaneers with Barbeque?
And how do we connect the Guacamole?
Of course, William Dampier was also connected with Henry Morgan.
Interesting article below? Is it real? Is it fake News?
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/first-food-writer
In this thread we have connected Panama with Henry Morgan and Henry Morgan with Captain Morgan's Rum.
The Buccaneers with Barbeque?
And how do we connect the Guacamole?
Of course, William Dampier was also connected with Henry Morgan.
Interesting article below? Is it real? Is it fake News?
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/first-food-writer
KANACKI
Bronze Member
- Mar 1, 2015
- 1,445
- 5,931
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Hello All
Perhaps it better to read Damiper's account to get a better understanding than relying on a author putting his own spin on him.
A NEW VOYAGE ROUND THE WORLD BY WILLIAM DAMPIER
Kanacki
Perhaps it better to read Damiper's account to get a better understanding than relying on a author putting his own spin on him.
A NEW VOYAGE ROUND THE WORLD BY WILLIAM DAMPIER
Kanacki
BillA
Bronze Member
Thanks Kanacki, far better than the preceding potboilers - and a longer and more informative read
BillA
Bronze Member
have a good trip
