Cave of gold bars

[deducer]

Those are good points too. We know that, like all intelligent warriors, the Apaches rarely engaged an enemy that they knew they couldn't defeat - typically by ambush. We also know that they not only took what they wanted or could use, but would attack and kill intruders regardless what useful goods they were carrying, if any. I guess the argument boils down to trying to establish whether this phantom Mexican pack train(s) existed at all - which at this point is purely speculative.

My unproven working hypothesis about the source of the unconfirmed massive vaults in the Caballos - based on where the gold could have originated, the relative ease of transport, and, interestingly, Noss's own assays of some of the bars (which I believe were recovered from the Caballos, not Victorio Peak), indicates that it came from the Santa Rita-Pinos Altos region. PA was a gold camp; Santa Rita del Cobre, in addition to massive copper harvesting, originally recovered large amounts of gold from the many earlier shallow workings, and most recent core-drilling has revealed very high-grade gold close to the Kneeling Nun. This extensive mineralized zone is a documented and proven significant producer in the modern era - ca 1800 to present - and an alleged far greater producer prior to 1800, quite a mysterious time for the region. Of course, this hypothesis also would include the Apache menace.

As far as the hypothetical "Mexican pack trains," you may find the following passages interesting (from Antigua California: Mission and Colony on the Peninsular Frontier, 1697-1768 by Harry Crosby):

 

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[deducer]

deducer,

The Apache would not have been much interested in WHAT the pack trains were carrying, but they were very interested in the animals carrying the load. Each night spent in Apacheria was a night they went shopping for steaks. Food was usually the primary motivation for Apache interest, and they did love those mules.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe,

They sure did, and I believe that those that ran the pack trains quickly learned to have a spare mule or two handy, to quench the appetites of the Apache.

 

[EarnieP]

nmth,
Probably old news to you, but good reading for those interested in New Mexico presidios (fortified military settlements), proposed presidos, and parajes (stopping places) along El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro road.(in particular, that section from EL Paso north to Santa Fe);

http://atlas.nmhum.org/pdfs/Urrutia1771RioAbajo.pdf

1598-1889
"The final six new presidial sites which Rubi recommended were on or near the Rio Grande near El Paso...."

"Rubí recommended six new presidios, to protect travel and commerce, as well as the agricultural settlements established by the Spanish. These defensive locations would be developed by the Americans, nearly 100 years later."


http://newmexicohistoricalmarkers.blogspot.com/2013/02/paraje-san-diego-histoircal-marker-dona.html



Fort Selden established 1865 on the centuries old site of the paraje Robledo.

?--? Probable prehistoric Native watering site ---
1598 Spanish paraje,--
1771 Possible (or proposed) Spanish presidio,--
1861 Confederate Army base,--
1865 Union Army Base manned by African-American 'Buffalo Soldiers'.
That's some history!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Selden

 

[Ditlihi]

I believe many of the Padres that held the secrets of the locations of much wealth died in transit and took those secrets with them.

MIke

It's certainly possible.

Wouldn't it be interesting if one of them did....and ended up in Prussia, where the word was passed to a family of Nobility? Far more interesting would be that family sending their Chief of Mining to Mexico and then up into the northern territories searching for something....under the guise of a geological/botanical expedition.

But I digress.

My apologies for the interruption.

 

[azdave35]

deducer,

One of the most notorious stories of Superstition treasures, is where the Peralta's and the Apache had a running battle with the Apache, ending up at the Massacre Grounds. Were the Peralta's only carrying gold ore, or do you imagine they had some supplies for survival as well? The Apache were said to have cut the packs off the mules onto the ground. They then ran away with their LOOT and ate them.

Good luck,

Joe

i'm sure the apaches would have at least tore the packs apart to see if there was anything usable in them

 

[mdog]

Wouldn't it be interesting if one of them did....and ended up in Prussia, where the word was passed to a family of Nobility? Far more interesting would be that family sending their Chief of Mining to Mexico and then up into the northern territories searching for something....under the guise of a geological/botanical expedition.

But I digress.

My apologies for the interruption.



View attachment 1481590

Good post Ditlihi. Do you know of such an expedition? Also, a simplified version of the emblem you posted would be a circle inside a heart.

 

[Ditlihi]

Good post Ditlihl. Do you know of such an expedition? Also, a simplified version of the emblem you posted would be a circle inside a heart.

I do, and will post more on that later. And you're correct, a circle inside a heart....but also a circle topped by a cross, with a V on the bottom.

 

[somehiker]

How about a "V" inside a circle, with the cross above.....like this



or these....http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html

Older version of that family crest



Are you saying the Habsburgs were searching for "Jesuit" treasure ?

 

[sdcfia]

Wouldn't it be interesting if one of them did....and ended up in Prussia, where the word was passed to a family of Nobility? Far more interesting would be that family sending their Chief of Mining to Mexico and then up into the northern territories searching for something....under the guise of a geological/botanical expedition.

But I digress.

My apologies for the interruption.



View attachment 1481590

Oh, what a web you weave when you throw in those European blue bloods, eh? Alexander von Humboldt must have gotten an earful during his stay in Mexico. He ran straight to his pal Thomas Jefferson (who had just purchased the West) to fill him in. Collusion, or just discussing apricot trees in New Mexico? Then Zeb Pike is sent packing west. Zeb, who had a penchant to explore certain specific locations that would generate later well-known legends of "caves of gold bars". Zeb, who named the Caballos. There's that phrase again, caves of gold bars, the title of this thread - must be a coincidence. [Jefferson, by the way, built some mighty interesting octagonal buildings back in Virginia whose sides seem to point directly to important sites in North America in a European axis mundi sort of way - some, coincidentally, linked to those pesky caves of gold bars. Yes, what a web. But I digress.] Bottom line, yes, a lotta folks got off the boat and were "searching for something."

 

[sdcfia]

... Are you saying the Habsburgs were searching for "Jesuit" treasure?

Maybe it was the other way around.

 

[Ditlihi]

Oh, what a web you weave when you throw in those European blue bloods, eh? Alexander von Humboldt must have gotten an earful during his stay in Mexico. He ran straight to his pal Thomas Jefferson (who had just purchased the West) to fill him in. Collusion, or just discussing apricot trees in New Mexico? Then Zeb Pike is sent packing west. Zeb, who had a penchant to explore certain specific locations that would generate later well-known legends of "caves of gold bars". Zeb, who named the Caballos. There's that phrase again, caves of gold bars, the title of this thread - must be a coincidence. [Jefferson, by the way, built some mighty interesting octagonal buildings back in Virginia whose sides seem to point directly to important sites in North America in a European axis mundi sort of way - some, coincidentally, linked to those pesky caves of gold bars. Yes, what a web. But I digress.] Bottom line, yes, a lotta folks got off the boat and were "searching for something."

Indeed, my friend.

If Lewis and Clark had been a couple of weeks slower in embarking on their expedition, they might have had more on their itinerary, eh?

Something of extreme interest to Von Humboldt was the work of exiled Jesuit, Father Francisco Javier Clavijero.

An interesting study.

 

[Ditlihi]

How about a "V" inside a circle, with the cross above.....like this

View attachment 1481640

or these....http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html

Older version of that family crest

View attachment 1481641

Are you saying the Habsburgs were searching for "Jesuit" treasure ?

A very interesting symbology on that cross, eh?

How's that Softail? Nothing serious I hope.

 

[gollum]

How about a "V" inside a circle, with the cross above.....like this

View attachment 1481640

or these....http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html

Older version of that family crest

View attachment 1481641

Are you saying the Habsburgs were searching for "Jesuit" treasure ?

You know that symbol on the show was placed there by the production company? They didn't know anything about Jesuits until I told them on the pilot. I believe they grabbed the symbol from my website, on one of the many pics of ingots I had.

Mike

 

[Ditlihi]

I believe that's pretty much common knowledge, Mike. However, you do bring up a good point, your photos of the bars. I particularly like the one you accidentally stumbled on in the Fisher collection.

 

[somehiker]

You know that symbol on the show was placed there by the production company? They didn't know anything about Jesuits until I told them on the pilot. I believe they grabbed the symbol from my website, on one of the many pics of ingots I had.

Mike

Ya, I'd figured as much, and made a comment to that effect after the episode had aired the first time.
Also know the actual location of that shot.

Wayne

 

[Ditlihi]

There was allegedly a Jesuit that went with the Coronado expedition in 1540. I am trying to locate where I read about that.

Now that would be news.

My apologies for back tracking a bit, but just noticed these two posts.

I believe it was a Franciscan who journeyed with Coronado....


https://archive.org/stream/supplementtoenc00unkngoog/supplementtoenc00unkngoog_djvu.txt

SUPPLEMENT TO ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA.
(NINTH EDITION.) VOLUME V.
THE HENRY G. ALLEN COMPANY,
NEW YORK.
1891.

Pg. 176


" A Franciscan Father, Mark of Nice, on information given by survivors of Narvaez's force, penetrated to the Zufiis, of New Mexico, and missionaries with Coronado's expedition, 1540-42, penetrated to the country near the Missouri and Mississippi, where Father Padilla and a companion were killed by the natives. "

 

[Ditlihi]

Another reference for Father Mark.....


https://archive.org/details/historychurchusa03sheauoft

History of the Catholic Church Within the Limits of the United States,
From the First Attempted Colonisation to the Present Time, Volume 1
By John Gilmary Shea
1886

Book II, Chapter I
The Catholic Church in the Spanish Colonies
Pgs 114 - 118

Excerpt -

" Father Mark thus stands in history as the earliest of the
priestly explorers who, unarmed and afoot, penetrated into
the heart of the country, in advance of all Europeans—a
barefooted friar effecting more, as Viceroy Mendoza wrote,
than well-armed parties of Spaniards had been able to ac
complish. The point reached by Father Mark was certainly
one of the towns of the Pueblo Indians of New Mexico and
Arizona, whose remarkable dwellings and progress in civil
ization he was the first to make known. "

 

[Ditlihi]

Good post Ditlihi. Do you know of such an expedition? Also, a simplified version of the emblem you posted would be a circle inside a heart.

Dog, you might find some of the maps and information at the following link helpful, and I haven't forgotten your request, have just been busy with a remodel. Sdcfia seems to be following my line of info well enough without my added input though.


https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/lewisandclark/lewis-before.html


Now, enough playing catch up. I'm back to work.

 

[sdcfia]

Another reference for Father Mark.....


https://archive.org/details/historychurchusa03sheauoft

History of the Catholic Church Within the Limits of the United States,
From the First Attempted Colonisation to the Present Time, Volume 1
By John Gilmary Shea
1886

Book II, Chapter I
The Catholic Church in the Spanish Colonies
Pgs 114 - 118

Excerpt -

" Father Mark thus stands in history as the earliest of the
priestly explorers who, unarmed and afoot, penetrated into
the heart of the country, in advance of all Europeans—a
barefooted friar effecting more, as Viceroy Mendoza wrote,
than well-armed parties of Spaniards had been able to ac
complish. The point reached by Father Mark was certainly
one of the towns of the Pueblo Indians of New Mexico and
Arizona, whose remarkable dwellings and progress in civil
ization he was the first to make known. "

Michel Nallino is one of the best sources of information concerning Marcos de Niza's expeditions into North America. The two free pdf's below are classics. Of course, it's my opinion that Marcos, following Estevanico, may have been given the location of a crazy-rich native gold lode in New Mexico in 1538. Marcos, who witnessed the Spanish modus operandi in Peru and became a Native advocate, may well have then sandbagged Coronado in 1540 and purposely led the Spanish expedition on a failed snipe hunt searching for "Cibola."

http://nallino.net/Arizona/Arizona.pdf

https://archive.org/details/FrayMarcosDeNizaUtopia

 

[Ditlihi]