Confederate Flag

[Montana Jim]

George - there is no question in my mind more was going on...I just selected one source to post from the hundreds I found. You are correct on those circumstances. The county I live in here in Montana has the most recorded deaths of settlers, miners, and such by Indians than anyplace else in there state... However, our government made sure life was hell for the native Americana's too... there are some mitigating factors. I also realize the victors write the history!

They weren't called he Indian Wars for nothing!

 

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[PBK]

This would seem to be a thread which— to a very great degree through my own fault, I am sorry to say— has badly lost its way.

Perhaps it would be best to return to the stated subject, namely, "Confederate Flag."

Of course, those who wish to continue discuss other topics such as Lincoln and the hanging of the Santee Sioux can do so by starting a new thread in an appropriate forum.

 

[BuckleBoy]

This would seem to be a thread which— to a very great degree through my own fault, I am sorry to say— has badly lost its way.

Perhaps it would be best to return to the stated subject, namely, "Confederate Flag."

Of course, those who wish to continue discuss other topics such as Lincoln and the hanging of the Santee Sioux can do so by starting a new thread in an appropriate forum.

I didn't see the "Hanging" forum... is it a new one? Oh--there it is. Right beside "Furniture for Sale"


Yes...back to Flags...

 

[PBK]

I didn't see the "Hanging" forum... is it a new one? Oh--there it is. Right beside "Furniture for Sale" :thumbsup

If all else fails, try "Everything Else."

 

[blurr]

I don't care what flag you want to fly. In America though, Old Glory should ride on top


John

 

[Mainedigger]

My big question is why alot of people get upset and come unglued when someone flies the Stars and Bars or any other Confederate flag...flags made by and flown by Americans....yet they have NO problem when a Mexican flag is not only flown, but flown ABOVE the Stars and Stripes(if the Stars and Stripes are even there at all)....
They will say the confederate flag is racist and shouldn;t be flown however a Mexican or Puerto Rican flag are flown by minorities so political correctness says we can;t say anything....
Flags are flown for and to show pride, so fly the Stars and Stripes and under it should be any other flag one decides to fly...be it Confederate, English, Swedish, Mexican, etc...It shows one is Proud to be American and also proud of their roots and history as well.

 

[thompy]

im a nothern boy, but let it fly high, we should not change our history to make some liberals happy, the South earned the right to fly the confederate flag , in the blood of many good men.

 

[oldbill]

The South will rise!!!!!!! Hurry up! Bill

 

[GrayCloud]

Thanks Thompy, The South did and is still paying a high price for a war that was forced on us. Yes forced, for all of you that are shocked, do the research.

Big61al, It may surprise you, but I would not even consider attending a Klan rally. I will fly a Confederate flag either by it self or under the Stars and Stripes. It may also shock you to know that many black Americans not only support the Confederate flag, but they also fought and died for the south. Slavery is wrong, no doubt some slaves were mistreated. Many slaves were very well taken care of, and were considered as family. I know hard to believe, again do the research, read Forty Years a Confederate Solder, a book about the Bowman family from Tensas Parish in Louisiana. It may also shock you to know that far more whites have been slaves than blacks throughout history. There have been many countries that had more black slaves than the U.S. NOTICE I SAID U.S., NOT THE SOUTH. Check your history, over 80% of the slaves brought into the US came through Boston and New York. Research Reseach. One more thing. There are still more blacks being held as slaves today, mostly in African countries, than what was shipped to the US. Where is the liberal outcry for them? Oh,they don;t have time as they are to busy attacking our great Confederate Flag.

 

[La Beep]

How many presidents came from the south?

I think 10 (out of 43)... if you actually count Jimmy Carter as a president.

I think a recount is in order. lol. Virgina was a southern state. Washington and Adams, to name a few early presidents.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Thanks Thompy, The South did and is still paying a high price for a war that was forced on us. Yes forced, for all of you that are shocked, do the research.

Big61al, It may surprise you, but I would not even consider attending a Klan rally. I will fly a Confederate flag either by it self or under the Stars and Stripes. It may also shock you to know that many black Americans not only support the Confederate flag, but they also fought and died for the south. Slavery is wrong, no doubt some slaves were mistreated. Many slaves were very well taken care of, and were considered as family. I know hard to believe, again do the research, read Forty Years a Confederate Solder, a book about the Bowman family from Tensas Parish in Louisiana. It may also shock you to know that far more whites have been slaves than blacks throughout history. There have been many countries that had more black slaves than the U.S. NOTICE I SAID U.S., NOT THE SOUTH. Check your history, over 80% of the slaves brought into the US came through Boston and New York. Research Reseach. One more thing. There are still more blacks being held as slaves today, mostly in African countries, than what was shipped to the US. Where is the liberal outcry for them? Oh,they don;t have time as they are to busy attacking our great Confederate Flag.

The South did not enlist black troops. The bill was passed, but it was passed too late in the war. Research, Research! I don't really understand this load of stuff you've posted. Are you defending slavery? Makes no sense to point out slavery in other countries when this war happened over 140 years ago... and at that time, we were the LAST of the leading World Powers to abolish slavery. Research Research!

This article should clear it up:

History gives lie to myth of black Confederate soldiers

By Truman R. Clark--professor of history at Tomball College

A racist fabrication has sprung up in the last decade: that the Confederacy had "thousands" of African- American slaves "fighting" in its armies during the Civil War.

Unfortunately, even some African-American men today have gotten conned into Putting on Confederate uniforms to play "re-enactors" in an army that fought to ensure that their ancestors would remain slaves.

There are two underlying points of this claim: first, to say that slavery wasn't so bad, because after all, the slaves themselves fought to preserve the slave South; and second, that the Confederacy wasn't really fighting for slavery. Both these notions may make some of our contemporaries feel good, but neither is historically accurate.

When one speaks of "soldiers" and "fighting" in a war, one is not talking about slaves who were taken from their masters and forced to work on military roads and other military construction projects; nor is one talking about slaves who were taken along by their masters to continue the duties of a personal valet that they performed back on the plantation. Of course, there were thousands of African-Americans forced into these situations, but they were hardly "soldiers fighting."

Another logical point against this wacky modern idea of a racially integrated Confederate army has to do with the prisoner of war issue during the Civil War. Through 1862, there was an effective exchange system of POWs between the two sides. This entirely broke down in 1863, however, because the Confederacy refused to see black Union soldiers as soldiers - they would not be exchanged, but instead were made slaves (or, as in the 1864 Fort Pillow incident, simply murdered after their surrender). At that, the United States refused to exchange any Southern POWs and the prisoner of war camps on both sides grew immensely in numbers and misery the rest of the war.

If the Confederacy had black soldiers in its armies, why didn't it see black men as soldiers?

By the way, all the Confederate soldiers captured by Union troops were white men. If there were "thousands" of black soldiers in the Confederate armies, why were none of them among the approximately 215,000 soldiers captured by the U. S. forces?

If there were thousands of African-American men fighting in the Confederate armies, they apparently cleverly did so without Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, the members of the Confederate congress or any of the white soldiers of the Confederacy knowing about it. (I can just imagine some former Confederate soldier, told in 1892 that hundreds of the men in his army unit during the Civil War were black, snapping his fingers and saying, "I knew there was something different about those guys!")

The South was running short of soldiers as the war dragged on, however, and some people began to suggest that it would be better to use slaves to fight than to lose. As late as three weeks before the Civil War came to an end, the members of the Confederate congress (and Lee and Davis) were hotly debating the question of whether to start using slaves in the Southern armies.

If, as some folks in the 1990s claim, there were already "thousands" of black troops in the Confederate armies, why were the leaders of the Confederacy still debating about whether or not they should start bringing them in?

The very accurate point made then by opponents of this legislation was, as one Georgia leader stated, "If slaves will make good soldiers our whole theory of slavery is wrong." Southern newspaper editors blasted the idea as "the very doctrine which the war was commenced to put down," a "surrender of the essential and distinctive principle of Southern civilization."

And what was that "essential and distinctive principle of Southern civilization"? Let's listen to the people of the times. The vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, said on March 21, 1861, that the Confederacy was "founded . . . its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based on this great physical, philosophical and moral truth."

What was the "very doctrine" which the South had entered into war to destroy? Let's go to the historical documents, the words of the people in those times. When Texas seceded from the Union in March 1861, its secession declaration was entirely about one subject: slavery. It said that Thomas Jefferson's words in the Declaration of Independence in 1776 - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" - were "the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color . . . a doctrine at war with nature . . . and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."

But, by March 13, 1865, the Confederacy had its back against the wall, and by the less than overwhelming margin of 40 to 37 in the House, and nine to eight in the Senate, the Confederate congress approved a bill to allow Jefferson Davis to require a quota of black soldiers from each state. Presumably (although the bill did not say so) slaves who fought would, if they survived the war, be freed. Southerners who opposed using blacks in the army noted that this idea had its problems: First, it was obvious that the Yankee armies would soon free them anyway; and second, if slavery was so wonderful and happy for black people, why would one be willing to risk death to win his freedom?

The war was virtually over by then, and when black Union soldiers rode into Richmond on April 3, they found two companies of black men beginning to train as potential soldiers. (When those black men had marched down the street in Confederate uniforms, local whites had pelted them with mud.) None got into the war, and Lee surrendered on April 9.

Yes, thousands of African-American men did fight in the Civil War - about 179,000. About 37,000 of them died in uniform. But they were all in the Army (or Navy) of the United States of America. The Confederate veterans who were still alive in the generations after the war all knew that and said so."



My response to the article above:


I think this article is a little over the top, and it does have some "spin"--but most of the facts are there: It appears that African-Americans were employed as cooks, musicians, and teamsters during all but the last part of the war. Were they pressed into service by their masters or drafted by the South (as were most of the white soldiers in the later part of the war)? I have no idea--but I do know that either is basically still slavery of a different sort.

You should also read the writings of Sam Watkins--a Confederate soldier--to see what most soldiers thought about being drafted and forced into the war.

8)



Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[GrayCloud]

Buckleboy, no wonder you get your facts so wrong, You can't read. Poor thing.

If you could read, you would have plainly saw that I think slavery is completely wrong and unjustifiable. No where in my family line did we ever have a slave. What got you so mad, the fact that the slaves were brought into the country by New York and Boston?

Again you did not read. I never said that there were black regiments. No the fought on their own free will. Often fighting and dying beside the white boy that they loved and grew up with.

Son, I know you don't won't to face the truth, but it will not hurt you. It may set you free. We do not all hate each other down here. Many years ago, I put my life at jeopardy to save a black friend. Oh, by the way, he voted for Bush.

 

[Ant]

I hate that flag, because the Raciest have it for their banner now. To me it's just like asking can I use the swastika because it's a symbol for good luck, it was, but most of us know it as being a symbol for the Nazis, who we stomped.

I like the Stars and Stripes, that's my flag, and one I would die for.

HH and Good Luck.

 

[Monty]

I had relatives who like the stereotype fought and died for both the north and the south. "Brother against brother" is what I am referring to. Some of them were Cherokee Indians, most were dirt poor and none of them ever owned slaves. Most of them who fought for the south were not fighting to keep slaves, rather they thought they were fighting for states rights. Most of the ones who fought for the union were inscripted and thought they were fighting to preserve the union. I doubt if any of them ever thought much about slavery one way or the other. As far as the flag thing, I doubt that any of them ever thought much about that either as the stars and bars was a battle flag and the north had battle flags as well. Fly the flag if you want to, what was the now outdated saying, "It's a free country"! I view the right to fly the flag right along with the right to speech, and the stupid White Ariens do fly the nazi flag (not the German flag) because of their freedom to do so. Fly the banner (may be more correct than the flag connotation), but yes, lets keep the Stars and Stripes above all else Do that and the rest is pretty unimportant. M nty

 

[olepossum]

osiyo tsalagi the name is seqitse of the anawi clan i think they should have the flag for us i am scottish and cherokee had family in the confederate artillery trans mississippi brigade they passed through chickamaga and round top mountain in the ndn nation duringthe civil war

 

[La Beep]

I hate that flag, because the Raciest have it for their banner now. To me it's just like asking can I use the swastika because it's a symbol for good luck, it was, but most of us know it as being a symbol for the Nazis, who we stomped.

You hate it, and I will keep flying it. I Spent 20 years in the U.S. Military and would have die for the US. I would also die for the Confederate States should they rise again.

I like the Stars and Stripes, that's my flag, and one I would die for.

Put your money where your mouth is and join up. But I really don't think you would like it, it is a dictatorship.

 

[Smee]

Let no one forget that there were not only black soldiers fighting on the side of "old glory".

There were black soldiers fighting on the side of the "Stars And Bars".

I went to trade school with one of their descendants, and as a matter of pride, he (although converted to Islam) wore a hat which bore the Confederate Battle Flag every day. He took a lot of flack over it from the other blacks, but he was proud of his ancestors and was willing to fight for his right to wear the colors.

As stated by another poster, the only ones being racist are those who want to remove the Confederate Flag.

 

[blurr]

I hate that flag, because the Raciest have it for their banner now. To me it's just like asking can I use the swastika because it's a symbol for good luck, it was, but most of us know it as being a symbol for the Nazis, who we stomped.

You hate it, and I will keep flying it. I Spent 20 years in the U.S. Military and would have die for the US. I would also die for the Confederate States should they rise again.

I like the Stars and Stripes, that's my flag, and one I would die for.

Put your money where your mouth is and join up. But I really don't think you would like it, it is a dictatorship.

I am as pro milatary and conservative as they come. There is one flag for our country, and the stars and bars isn't it!!!! Old glory. That war was fought and finished to unite this country. Love your heritage, but love even more your country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John

 

[BuckleBoy]

It may also shock you to know that many black Americans not only support the Confederate flag, but they also fought and died for the south.

Looks like I can read. Plain as day, you say that there were Confederate black soldiers. Please don't talk down to me in your posts, Newbie--I in no way deserve that type of disrespect from you.

Did I sound mad in that post? I don't think so--and I assure you that I wasn't. If I were mad, you would've known it. I just wanted to provide some facts--much the same as I have tried to do throughout this thread.


Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[Ant]

I did three years in the US Army (74-77), Infantry (11-B-10 Rifleman), plus 27 years Civil Service and I'm supporting our current War effort to this day. That gives me a total of 30 years US Government Service. And I still hate that flag for what it stands for today, and for what it stood for back then.