Confederate Flag

[GPURS]

It may also shock you to know that many black Americans not only support the Confederate flag, but they also fought and died for the south.

Looks like I can read. Plain as day, you say that there were Confederate black soldiers. Please don't talk down to me in your posts, Newbie--I in no way deserve that type of disrespect from you.

Did I sound mad in that post? I don't think so--and I assure you that I wasn't. If I were mad, you would've known it. I just wanted to provide some facts--much the same as I have tried to do throughout this thread.


Regards,


Buckleboy

As many times as you "talk down" to other people, you sure do get real touchy when someone does it to you. You make it a point to call this guy "Newbie". I guess he just did not realize he was dealing with the all-knowing one from the ivory tower. His points were as valid as yours fella....

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi, I can't decide whether to fly the British, French or Spanish flags since they all represented the US at one time, and of opposing sides.. Sigh. I suppose this is because not too many romantic, but not necessarily historically correct, Movies and TV series have been made of their periods. double sigh.

However, there is only ONE FLAG WHICH IS SUPREME, 'THE PRESENT ONE REPRESENTING THE US. This should always take precedence over any other.

Don Jose de La Mancha (pore confused Saint)

p.s. The present trend to post, utilize flags as bathing suits, vehicle adornments etc., is actually debasing to what that flag originally stood for.

p.p.s Many, many good men died defendng the Swastika, so it also should be allowed to wave freely and proudly no?

 

[blurr]

I did three years in the US Army (74-77), Infantry (11-B-10 Rifleman), plus 27 years Civil Service and I'm supporting our current War effort to this day. That gives me a total of 30 years US Government Service. And I still hate that flag for what it stands for today, and for what it stood for back then.

It IS apart of our country's history, and should be treated as such. My only problem with it is that when countries have civil wars, they honor the flag that flies after the bullets quit flying. I guess America is unique in this respect, but show me one other country that still pays homage to the flag of the opposition during a civil war. Kind of wierd, isn't it?

John

 

[GrayCloud]

Well said as usual Monty.

Gpurs, Looks like the Buckle still has reading issues. If he would read the part of my post that he copied, I never stated Black Enlisted Solders. I said that many Blacks fought and died fighting for the South. They should not be disrespected by denying them.

Many of my ancestors were Cherokee and they to fought for the South. Buckle, do you deny them also. All denominations and races of people fought for both sides. We all deserve the right to pay respect to our decedents. My decedents fought and died under the Confederate Flag. To us the flag is about heritage, not hate.

 

[BuckleBoy]

p.p.s Many, many good men died defendng the Swastika, so it also should be allowed to wave freely and proudly no?

In America, a person has that freedom. I would feel uncomfortable if my neighbor sported a Swastika--but it is their right.

On Treasurenet, it might be another story if it made its way onto someone's avatar...Tnet is not a democracy.



Blurr,

We are in agreement 100%. I have made no anti-southern or pro-southern comments on this thread--only been trying to get the facts straight so far. And to be honest, I probably will not get my opinion involved in the Confed. flag avatar issue. I would imagine that part of the reason America is unique is because we're free to honor that flag as we wish.


Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[BuckleBoy]

Well said as usual Monty.

Gpurs, Looks like the Buckle still has reading issues. If he would read the part of my post that he copied, I never stated Black Enlisted Solders. I said that many Blacks fought and died fighting for the South. They should not be disrespected by denying them.

Many of my ancestors were Cherokee and they to fought for the South. Buckle, do you deny them also. All denominations and races of people fought for both sides. We all deserve the right to pay respect to our decedents. My decedents fought and died under the Confederate Flag. To us the flag is about heritage, not hate.

I don't deny the Cherokee one bit. The records of their enlistment are there! I'm sorry I have a habit of skipping over stuff that isn't relevant--what do Cherokee have to do with any of this anyhow?

How exactly did Blacks fight and die for the South? Did they wander out into a storm of lead and iron without a weapon? How did they acquire a gun? Black troops that were armed at the end of the war by the South were still in training by the time the war ended.

By the way--since we're both talking down to each other now--I hardly think your decendents fought for the South.





-Buck

 

[Old Dog]

Quote from EDDE,

in before the fecal storm .
End quote.

No Kidding

 

[GrayCloud]

Buckleboy, watch your step, its looks like you may be calling me a liar.

My Grandfather on my Dads side was Robert Garrett, he was born 1880 in South Arkansas. He had many relatives that fought for the South. His wife was full blood Cherokee from the reservation and her white name was Dorthy Smith. She had relatives that fought for the South. My Mothers people were Kimble's and Trichells, from central and South Louisiana. They too had decedents in the war.

My Dad was at Pearl Harbor when it was bombed. He was in the Army not the Navy. Do you doubt that? He had four brothers and they all were in WW2. I had a brother in Nam. I was in the army during Nam, but I was not in any action. When we buried my Dad, we found out he had two Bronze and one Silver Star. He never talked about the war to us, and took his memories to the grave.

Do not call me or my decedents a liar.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Buckleboy, watch your step, its looks like you may be calling me a liar.

My Grandfather on my Dads side was Robert Garrett, he was born 1880 in South Arkansas. He had many relatives that fought for the South. His wife was full blood Cherokee from the reservation and her white name was Dorthy Smith. She had relatives that fought for the South. My Mothers people were Kimble's and Trichells, from central and South Louisiana. They too had decedents in the war.

My Dad was at Pearl Harbor when it was bombed. He was in the Army not the Navy. Do you doubt that? He had four brothers and they all were in WW2. I had a brother in Nam. I was in the army during Nam, but I was not in any action. When we buried my Dad, we found out he had two Bronze and one Silver Star. He never talked about the war to us, and took his memories to the grave.

Do not call me or my decedents a liar.

Yes, but your grandfather and your father are not your descendants. They are your ancestors. Your descendants are your children and grandchildren.

 

[get-r-dug]

The Confederate States of America's national flags and battle flag have been much maligned, misunderstood, and misused.

I have no intention of being drawn into a debate about any or all of them, but I will say this: whatever else they may represent to others, they are undeniably historically significant symbols of the South— and the South means a very great deal to me indeed.

No doubt those in other regions feel the same devotion to their homeland, and I respect them for it; but my own sentiments are best expressed by Edward Ward Carmack's "Pledge to the South," from a speech which he delivered in the U.S. House of Representatives:

"The South is a land that has known sorrows;
it is a land that has broken the ashen crust and
moistened it with tears; a land scarred and riven
by the plowshare of war and billowed with the
graves of her dead; but a land of legend,
a land of song, a land of hallowed and heroic
memories.

"To that land every drop of my blood, every
fiber of my being, every pulsation of my heart,
is consecrated forever. I was born of her womb;
I was nurtured at her breast; and when my last
hour shall come, I pray God that I may be
pillowed upon her bosom and rocked to sleep
within her tender and encircling arms."

I don't know what to say........I have a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye from that pledge...never heard it before...very cool.

 

[PBK]

I don't know what to say........I have a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye from that pledge...never heard it before...very cool.

Did you know that Edward Ward Carmack was from your state?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_W._Carmack

I'm glad I could share his tribute to the South with you.



And now back to the topic of the flag....

 

[GrayCloud]

Buckleboy, I stand corrected. My apology. No hard feelings.

 

[get-r-dug]

I don't know what to say........I have a lump in my throat and a tear in my eye from that pledge...never heard it before...very cool.

Did you know that Edward Ward Carmack was from your state?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_W._Carmack

I'm glad I could share his tribute to the South with you.



And now back to the topic of the flag....

Thank you for the info....I didn't know any of this. I am deeply ashamed for not even knowing the history of my own state...

 

[BuckleBoy]

Buckleboy, I stand corrected. My apology. No hard feelings.

Never were any hard feelings here.


Cheers,


Buck

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Room: I rather expect a storm of confrontations on this post.

In the 1700's a group of extremely intelligent and well educated men met to form a new country and Constitution. They were working with first hand experience from the dangers of a Monarchy or dictatorial government so they formed it with counter balancing powers, hopefully eliminating this. However, we have successfully been dismounting it by far less dedicated or intelligent people. We even have many demanding a new, up to date one

Among many other things, they recognized the dangers of separation, so created a new nation with the various states voluntarily entering it and legally, morally agreeing to never disband for mutual protection. under this new Nation. "United we stand, divided we fall"

The civil war was not about slavery, it was simply to maintain the integrity and strength of this new Nation, without this, North America would have soon been taken over by the hungry European Nations as they had done to other countries.

Consider what could, and probably would have occurred IF the Confederacy had been successful. Having set up the precident of seccession, the Confederacy itself would soon also find states succeeding from itself for the same reasons, Power, financial, and political. It soon would be fragmented and easy picking for Hungry Powers.

In effect the new Nation would have collapsed militarily and economically as other states also succeeded for the same above reasons.

Our leaders also recognized that the weak Americas could form a foothold for agressive Dictators , so they enacted the Monroe Doctrine..

Imagine what the aggressive European powers would have found in the early 1900's and again in the 1930's. if the Confederacy had succeeded.

After conquering Europe in the 40's Hitler would have had a field day with a divided America, instead, because of the results of the Civil war, we were still united and effectively, through our industry etc., saved the world from Hitler's 1000 year third Reich.

While I salute brave men everywhere, including Japanese trying to kill me in WW-2, I cannot, in clear conscience, hold the Confederacy's decision to go to war as admirable, or anything but foolish, and perhaps a bit greedy for power or money. No where do I see where it was supposed to help the average Southerner.

While you may fly the flag to your heart's content, I rather wish that you wouldn't hold up the 'Confederacy' cause as something almost mystically holy, it certainly wasn,t !

Don Jose de La Mancha alias Till Eulenspeigle

 

[PBK]

Consider the following from the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Whether rightly or wrongly, in 1861 many Southerners felt that they had reached such a point of decision— just as the colonists had back in 1776.

Let us not forget (either carelessly or as a matter of convenience) that large numbers of Loyalists believed that Americans had no right to renounce their allegiance to Great Britain and its king, and that such patriots were in fact guilty of sedition and treason.

Again, I am not raising the issue of right or wrong, only pointing out that if the phrase "consent of the governed" has any meaning at all, then surely it includes the understanding that such consent is not absolute or irrevocable. Indeed, as the founding fathers themselves acknowledged, there remains with the people what they termed "their right... their duty" to seek, and if necessary to create, an acceptable alternative to a government which they feel no longer honors their rights, serves their best interests, or respects their personal, collective, and cultural worth.

Individual citizens and sovereign states alike have "certain unalienable rights," and they also have the right to declare, secure, and defend them.

And while some may or may not make the wrong choice. it is far more wrong to deny that they have a right to choose. Ask the men who died at Bunker Hill.

However you or I, history or Heaven may judge them, the men who died defending the flag of the Confederate States of America believed that they had those rights, too.

 

[Old Dog]

Awesome post PBK,
Thanks,
For a very long time here in my little corner of the world in our little VFW post,
in and among the younger vets was a very old and revered veteran from the Spanish American War.
No, This man was an immigrant who was a naturalised citizen. He fought against the American invaders.

Yet , he was respected and his military service was as honored as any American's was.
And YES, the man is now buried in the Veterans cemetery here with full honors.

I see no difference with soldiers who Fought and served under the Stars and Bars,
as opposed to those who did the same under Old Glory.

Thom

 

[Mainedigger]

Consider the following from the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Whether rightly or wrongly, in 1861 many Southerners felt that they had reached such a point of decision— just as the colonists had back in 1776.

Let us not forget (either carelessly or as a matter of convenience) that large numbers of Loyalists believed that Americans had no right to renounce their allegiance to Great Britain and its king, and that such patriots were in fact guilty of sedition and treason.

Again, I am not raising the issue of right or wrong, only pointing out that if the phrase "consent of the governed" has any meaning at all, then surely it includes the understanding that such consent is not absolute or irrevocable. Indeed, as the founding fathers themselves acknowledged, there remains with the people what they termed "their right... their duty" to seek, and if necessary to create, an acceptable alternative to a government which they feel no longer honors their rights, serves their best interests, or respects their personal, collective, and cultural worth.

Individual citizens and sovereign states alike have "certain unalienable rights," and they also have the right to declare, secure, and defend them.

And while some may or may not make the wrong choice. it is far more wrong to deny that they have a right to choose. Ask the men who died at Bunker Hill.

However you or I, history or Heaven may judge them, the men who died defending the flag of the Confederate States of America believed that they had those rights, too.

PBK..and that says it all in a nut shell.... As you stated...right or wrong on their reasoning for doing so...the Declaration of Independence CLEARLY spelled out that the people had the right to choose their own form of government. The reasoning for doing so does not matter, for if the majority feel it is needed then it is their right to do as they wish. The Southern states that did leave the Union and form the Condederacy intially left over States rights...the legality of their leaving has been hotly debated for years...however they felt it was their right to do so and as the above Declaration of Independence clearly states, in my opinion, they were correct in assuming so.
Their cause was on the losing end so its a moot point, however to say they did not have the right to succeed from the Union is a travesty and an insult to our founding fathers ideals and hard work and since then government has seemed to take over and forgotten that it is WE the people and they have forgotten that then as well as now we have the right to choose our form of government and dictate ourselves how we are represented and by whom regardless of how many politicians want us to not know that fact and tell us otherwise.
The founding fathers gave us the power to run our government as we see fit, if we don't use that power then its nobodies fault but our own and if we let our elected officials get away with squashing our rights then they surely will.

 

[Ray S S]

Hello, Slingshot, No matter which flag it is that you posted, it still is a pretty nice pic with
the sky and trees behind it. It started quite a long post with alot of interresting facts and
opinions with a few good pics thrown in. I enjoyed reading the whole thing. I am interrested
in the Civil War anyway because my mother's father faught in it. He enlisted at Port Huron,
Mi in '62. I have a writeup about him off the computer. It mentions the battles he was in, wounded
three times, and when he was mustered out.


To Real de Tayopa, I agree with you about how a pic of the flag is used in decorating in so
many different ways. In my opinion sometimes it looks like more like disrespecting the flag
than to honor it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: It was posted -->...the Declaration of Independence CLEARLY spelled out that the people had the right to choose their own form of government. The reasoning for doing so does not matter, for "if the majority " feel it is needed then it is their right to do as they wish.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is no disputing this, and the majority stayed with the then Fed gov't, so the Conferency did not represent the majority any more than one of our present minorities, in fact the majority of the states supported the Fed Gov't.. I presume that you will agree that none of our present minorities have the avowed right to resort to violence under the above interpretation.

Till Eulenspiegle alias Don Jose de La Mancha