Gold Hawg: 1715 Fleet Find

[RELICDUDE07]

When i first saw it, i thought it may have been some type of hanging bedside candle holder -close the shutters to dim the light .What ever it was ----- it's a true TREASURE!!!!!!!Im so glad you found this piece of history!

 

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[bikerlawyer]

Hey Bonnie I had lunch with Bob Marx today he told me what your find is and wants you to call him at work 321-327-2984.

 

[FISHEYE]

It was a robotic eagle/turkey now missing the motor/robotics and wing due to many years at the bottom of the ocean.


Its kinda like Bubo the golden owl.

 

[jeff k]

http://www.enrada.com/response.htm

It looks like a chicken to me.

 

[elle]

Congratulations Bonnie on your find!

The Catholic Encyclopedia: An International Work of Reference on the Constitution,
Doctrine, and History of the Catholic Church. By Charles George Herbermann, 1913.

Page 214:

"The Blessed Sacrament was reserved in a silver pelican hung over the High Alter."

Tom, you were so close and right on target. I read that the pelican and the eagle of St. John
were used interchangeably by artists for many religious works. Good job on your wonderful
answer! Hey, tell Monica today is her Saint's Day.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

http://www.enrada.com/response.htm

A Pelican in Piety. Great ID by Dr. Eugene Lyon.
...but I wonder what is the purpose of the 3 hinges? ...to help stabalize from the rocking of the ship? ...and why the hole in each hinge?

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast244.htm
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/28433765@N07/3672572134/

Could this have held the Holy Eucharist to give Communion on the ship?

 

[mad4wrecks]

I got en email from Ernie Richards informing me that Eugene Lyons thought it was a pelican too and I will certainly defer to him.

Had no idea it was St. Monica day...thanks!

Tom

 

[traderoftreasures]

if that was me i would have not been able to post.
I would still be there dredging the ocean floor.
CONGRATULATIONS ON A SWEEEETTTTTT FIND.

 

[Goodyguy]

I doubt that I can be of much help but I would like to ask a few questions. This is indeed an incredible find, Bonnie, and a mystery.


Did you say it has 3 eyelets- one on the head and one on each wing?

It also appears to have 3 holes dead center in the hinges. The holes must serve a purpose. They must be there for a reason.

Anything on the base, hole or eyelet? Will it stand up on its own?

Do the wings move with the hinge? Do you see any wear marks?

I wonder if jewels were mounted in those holes?
Rubies would have really set it off!

 

[elle]

I believe it was a pyx-a receptacle that held the Eucharist.
It could have been carried or hung in the air. See picture how it was suspended.
A dove or pelican was used often as the image designed.

 

[captbonnie]

Hi all,

In today and looks like for awhile with the swell picking up --
"Gold Hawg" has been running hard (and sweet) with that new engine installation so time for a thorough look over-
got to keep the boat and crew happy - don't want Mom too worn out to celebrate her 87th next month!

Haven't given up on the wing - this swell might settle out that bottom - berms and holes all running together. Did back off it
last couple days and hit the area where I found the K'ang Hsi earlier -

the "pelican in piety" looks to be our bird - a PELICAN!! Many thanks to Gene Lyons for the id. Brent Brisben ( I am subcontracting for his company) came aboard and told me and with the engine running and the diving I thought "no way" - that's no pelican. But guess I haven't seen too many gold birds around the docks..
(to answer a few questions: the discoloration (pinkish areas) is the encrusted clay mud just the way the photo came out - bird was not cleaned at all at this point - this is how it came out of the water- ; the wings do not hinge - the bird seems to have been made to view from the front and the base is not a stand - tho it will balance upright.)

Here's some links you might like to see:

http://www.ecphorizer.com/EPS/site_page.php?page=902&issue=56 (this one on the pelican story even a reference to "Hamlet")

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...&ndsp=21&tbs=isch:1&ei=xaRxTKjzCYP88AbF9diACw

Bonnie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

the "pelican in piety" looks to be our bird - a PELICAN!! Many thanks to Gene Lyons for the id. Brent Brisben ( I am subcontracting for his company) came aboard and told me and with the engine running and the diving I thought "no way" - that's no pelican. But guess I haven't seen too many gold birds around the docks..

I guess its portraying one of the Egyptian Pelicans.

 

[Darren in NC]

I believe Laura is most accurate when referring to the Eucharist. Since the pelican symbolizes the sacrificial blood of Christ, I believe it specifically refers to the cup (or wine) of Holy Communion more than the bread . I've noticed that the pelican is found on chalice coverings - see upper right photo. The top middle photo is a baby pelican drinking from the chalice.

I wonder if this bird Bonnie found was an altar piece for holding wine?

As far as the look of this pelican, medieval renderings of the pelican look like chicken, geese or eagles. But church history is clear that it is a pelican.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I believe Laura is most accurate when referring to the Eucharist. Since the pelican symbolizes the sacrificial blood of Christ, I believe it specifically refers to the cup (or wine) of Holy Communion more than the bread . I've noticed that the pelican is found on chalice coverings - see upper right photo. The top middle photo is a baby pelican drinking from the chalice.

I wonder if this bird Bonnie found was an altar piece for holding wine?

As far as the look of this pelican, medieval renderings of the pelican look like chicken, geese or eagles. But church history is clear that it is a pelican.

At first I thought about the wine chalice too but because it looks as if it would be hard to drink from, Im sticking with my guess that it was to dispense Holy Communion (bread wafers).

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/eucha1a.htm

Christ instituted the Holy Eucharist in this way: He took bread, blessed and broke it, and giving it to His apostles, said: "Take and eat; this is My body;" then He took a cup of wine, blessed it, and giving it to them, said: "All of you drink of this; for this is My blood of the new covenant which is being shed for many unto the forgiveness of sins;" finally, He gave His apostles the commission: "Do this in remembrance of Me."

 

[mad4wrecks]

I'd be curious to know what Bob Marx thinks it is. I hope Bikerlawyer or CaptHawk will update this thread with his answer.

 

[Darren in NC]

At first I thought about the wine chalice too but because it looks as if it would be hard to drink from...

Of course you wouldn't drink from it, but it is a common practice to this day to dip bread in the cup. I'm not sure when wafers came onto the scene.

Fun brainstorming.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

At first I thought about the wine chalice too but because it looks as if it would be hard to drink from...

Of course you wouldn't drink from it, but it is a common practice to this day to dip bread in the cup. I'm not sure when wafers came onto the scene.

Fun brainstorming.

Its been I while since I been to church, but when I went to my Moms funeral service, the priest handed me a solid gold chalice full of wine. My sister had to bump me and tell me to just take a sip lol.

But it sounds like you could be right. The bread was probably hard and there was plenty of wine onboard....maybe they dipped it. ... the experts will tell us.

 

[elle]

Hi guys!

A pyx contains the consecrated bread. Today in a Catholic Church, you will mostly see the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a
cabinet called a tabernacle. A hanging Eucharistic pyx is a suspended form of a tabernacle. It is uncommon today, but still exists in the Catholic Church.
Look at this one from a newly decorated Catholic chapel in Boston that was unveiled two years ago. This hanging pyx was made in Spain.

Long ago, the use of a dove or a pelican as a pyx to hold the Eucharist, says with belief, that the bread is Jesus Christ.

The pyx found recently (a beautiful find) was not likely used as part of the chaplain's ornament set to give mass onboard.
The church ordered many shipments of religious goods to be sent to Spain from the New World.
Many artifacts were superbly crafted from the artisans and goldsmith workers of Mexico and even as far as the Phillipines.
For example, a galleon carrying shipment for the Catholic Church in those years could have
included cargo of many chalices, missal stands, candlesticks, incense holders, custodias, and pyxes.

 

[Darren in NC]

The pyx found was not likely used as part of the chaplain's ornament set to give mass onboard.

Very well said, Laura. I agree with you. This type of "churchware" was more likely to be used in...well...a cathedral, not a trading vessel. The craftsmanship used in the New World was quite impressive for its day.

Long ago, the use of a dove or a pelican as a pyx to hold the Eucharist, says with belief, that the bread is Jesus Christ.

This pelican piece has fascinated me more than any other find on the 1715 fleet - or any other treasure found. Though limited in my sources, I have studied it as much as possible. Laura, can you tell me what your source is for a pelican being used as a pyx? In every historic or modern case, I can only find doves being used.

I want to believe this piece is a pyx, but the design doesn't lend itself to it. There are no eyelets for its hanging. The hinges don't seem to be useful to that end, either. And while "something" seemed to be placed in the middle of the pelican, the lack of easy access to the Eucharist doesn't add up. I now doubt it was wine used there, either. I do hope I'm wrong, for I do want this mystery to be solved.

 

[elle]

Hi Darren!

The Catholic Encyclopedia: An International Work of Reference on the Constitution,
Doctrine, and History of the Catholic Church. By Charles George Herbermann, 1913.

Page 214:

"The Blessed Sacrament was reserved in a silver pelican hung over the High Alter."

In this next article it explains:
"Often in the continent they (pyxes) were produced in the form of birds, commonly doves."
http://medieval-church-art.blogspot.com/2008/09/hanging-pyx.html

Google Books, The Month, Catholic Magazine and Review. 1897. Volume 89, page 175.
"[This was, of course, to keep the pyx from swaying about.] Whereon stood a pelican,
all of silver, upon the height of the said canopy, very finely gilt, giving
her blood to her young ones, in token that Christ gave His Blood for the sins
of the world, and it was goodly to behold for the Blessed Sacrament to hang in,
and the pyx wherin the Blessed Sacrament hung was of most pure gold..."