histroy of the cave /tunnel

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

At the end of his life he appeared just plain dirt poor, if he had actually made that much cash their should have been something left, maybe still burried in his old back yard?
Bill

...

His property was searched pretty well from what I understand.

Oh? They had MD's back then...?
Anything buried on the property was either found long ago when it was developed, or is paved over with concrete. Still, it would be an interesting area to MD. (I bet that it was buried under the chicken coop. Not a fun place to dig....)

real treasure hunters dig that shit!

 

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[Zephyr]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Oh? They had MD's back then...?

No, they used shovels I "heard" most of his property was dug up with shovels looking for gold ore. Not sure how true that is though. I seem to spin some yarns around here

My shovel only finds rocks and tree roots. Seems to zero in on them automatically....

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

my shovel needs its own maid ..... , to dust it off now and then .......

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

=Bob Collins ]
$250,000.00 of 1888 dollars in today's value would be at least five to eight times that amount.

Jacob was a millionare! Why would he need to go get more gold? BC
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bob, speaking personally, once you go on the trail wholeheartedly,it becomes a way of life. You do not give it up just because you have hit it for a fair amount of money. I know that Beth, Oro, Gallum, and many others, probably including yourself, would not give it up just because they had been successful.. They would only have better toys to play with for the "Next One".

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

=Bob Collins ]
Ah the next one....I forgot! The money trail is one trail I would like to keep on hiking.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Bob, I sincerely hope that you never do, nor that we never grow up. I love it and hope to meet you on the trail some day!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

781.25 pounds of pure Gold to get that amount at $20 per ounce. (Troy ounces are smaller so this is just an estimate.)


$335,000,000,00 million in visable gold!

Wow!

Has any mine around the area produced those amounts of gold? BC

~~~~~~~~~

Not there, but the Tayopa complex has for sure. Yes they do exist. Even my lil Escondida mine which assays $2000+ could equal this in only 125 tons. 5 men @ 3 tons daily with crude hand tools and wheelbarrows in approximately 42 working days.

Don Jose de La Mancha












[/quote]

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

HOLA mi amigo Real deTayopa! (And everyone, of course)

Dang buddy, but you do know how to get an old prospector's heart pumping don't you! I love assay reports, especially when they come back like THAT one!

Just a side note here for those trying to do the math, but a Troy ounce is a bit heavier than the English or Avoirdupois ounce:

1 ounce Troy = 1.097142857 ounce Avd.

Ore shipped by Waltz would have been hand-cobbed and selected, so it is safe to assume it would be very high grade.

Other gold mines have produced millions of dollars in gold, including mines in the Goldfield district which is (arguably) within what was known as the Superstitions at the time Waltz was alive and actively prospecting/mining.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Sheehs Gentlemen: as is usual, I had to option it for just a fraction of what it is worth to finish up Tayopa, sigh sniff, however I still have 2 1/2 years while it is still mine to do with as I wish except to embargo it with any large debts or any other compromises. So who knows more about hi-grading than Oro? hehehe.

Seriously, I have given thought to this. I have a Mexican gambusino (miner) that is intimately privy to the mine. He wanted it but I got it instead, however he is willing to work it for the hi-grade that he knows about, perhaps 30 - 40 tons a month until they come up with the final payment and securities.©@

Suggestions?

Incidentally those are European (Metric) assays. It is in grams, A Gram of gold is running aprox. $21 US ( 1 ounce is about $670 / 32 grms = $20.94).

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Personally I hope they cannot complete their agreement and so default, but there is very little hope of that, it is just too good. Their investment is guaranteed to be returned in couple of months after putting it into limited production, but then they are promoters rather than miners. I also hold 3% net smelter royalty for the life of the mine no matter who works it.

Incidentally, this post is merely to show why the LDM is worth finding if it actually exists, it probably would be far richer.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

So who knows more about hi-grading than Oro? hehehe.

Shh! That was "prospecting".....

It is a sad fact of the mining game that so many mining agreements have fallen apart or end up in courts. Good luck on the Escondido mi amigo, I hope this one will pay off the way it really should.

your high-grading (er..."prospecting") friend,

Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Congrats Joe,

I can only hope that all goes as planned.
Just don't let those Jesuits come back and trick you .

Take care and keep us posted.

Thom
OD

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Oro,

I received this, this morning:

Hi, Joe,

Alas, we do not have any records of ore shipments from Arizona. All such remained the property of the shipping office, and have disappeared over the years.

Regards,

Dr. Robert J. Chandler
Senior Research Historian
Historical Services, A0101-106
Wells Fargo Bank
420 Montgomery Street
San Francisco, CA 94163-2921
415/396-2022

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You still may be right, but this seems pretty definitive. Not all of the historical archives were destroyed in the 1906 fire. I believe around 40 tons of archives were located, much later, in Philadelphia. I believe those are now housed in the San Francisco Archives.

Dr. Chandler has defined the type of records we would need, and states they no longer exist. I was considering a future trip to look at the archives myself, but will probably take the word of "Senior Research Historian", as well as the results of the LDM researchers who have already been down this road.

I also plan on one phone call to Dr. Chandler.

The question now, is: What exactly did you see with the #s and name "Walz" and why the name spelled incorrectly? I believe you saw something.....but what? Many people have written this ore shipments story, most provably wrong. Could that be the memory, or did you see the actual document?

If you like, I will relate the results of my phone call. Otherwise, I will just keep it private.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Hello Joe,

I got a very similar reply to an email I sent to Mr Chandler, so I cannot prove what I saw. Not for the moment anyway. He did add that they have no records of any shipments of any kind for anyone from Arizona for that time period, not just Walz/Waltz.

I have 'hit' a number of museums over the years, (in fact just discovered one in Benson that I have never been in, hope to visit that before leaving the area) and have used a number of historical societies libraries as well, perhaps my memory is just wrong.

However the other (though slight) reports, such as the gold cashed in by Mrs Thomas, and the pieces of ore now in jewelry or matchbox, are eloquent evidence that there was a gold deposit that is different from every other known source, which was the point in the first place.

What I recall seeing was a ruled page with an entry on each line, with a brief description of what was shipped and approximate value, as well as several instances of Indian attacks, holdups, dead mules, etc but not a lot of detail for any of the entries, just one line. I am sure that the name that caught my eye was spelled 'Walz" without the 't' but I was convinced that it has to be the same as our Waltz. I am trying another angle on this, which will take some time.

Sorry the quest turned out to be a dead end. I hope you have a great day.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Oro,

It was not my intent to slight you in any way. From what I have seen here, I respect you.

In the past I have questioned facts presented by people I had tremendous respect for. Many of those folks are no longer on speaking terms with me. They thought I went too far by bringing in opposing facts......with sources. I prefer historical truth to changing history one word at a time or in bunches, for that matter. I know it's just a quirk, but I believe it's important.

Dr. Chandler gave me a call today. We probably talked for 20 or 30 minutes. I was like a kid in a candy store. Here was a man who really knew the history of the times and exactly what role Wells Fargo played in that story. I took notes. Came away from that conversation with a bit more knowledge than I started it with. Lucky day for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Hello Joe,

Thank you for the kind words - and be assured that I was in no way offended, in fact I was dead-sure it would be the simplest thing to prove. Any new information you care to share via the phone call would be very much appreciated.

We also have the written statement from the Holmes manuscript stating that Dick took the candle box of gold ore, (saying he had been given it by Waltz), and used the proceeds to outfit his search for the mine for some time. Even without the Wells Fargo records, we have at least some evidence that there was very rich gold ore, in respectable quantities (though considerably less) and unlike any known source.

I have not given up on finding it, (where I saw and took notes from) but it will take some time to track down. Thanks again and I hope you have a great day.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Roy,

I will not be posting the contents of that phone call. If you would like to have the bare bones of what we talked about, I will be happy to email it to you. I was offered more conversations in the future.

I have no argument, whatsoever, with the fact that Jacob Waltz had some rich gold ore in his possession. At this point in time, I believe he had a mine in the Superstitions. It seems obvious, knowing what I believe I know, that key directions and clues were changed,
who knows by whom, to send a few generations of Dutch Hunters in the wrong direction. As it turns out, many of those clues only had one or two words changed. That was just enough. Goes right along with my favorite saying: History is changed one word at at time.

I have to admit that I find a number of things that I positively remember, turning up wrong every day. That's why I have so many books at my fingertips. May not know the facts anymore, but still remember where to find them.

As I said before, I would love for you to turn up a great source for that information. In fact, I doubt anyone would be happier than me. What a great boost for the story of the LDM. Have to run it right down to the secret meetings of the Don's Club.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Sure Joe - my email is:

[email protected]

thank you in advance,

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

PS Just my own opinion but I fear that a great many of the 'clues' and pretty much all of the 'maps' are of little value to ever find that lost mine, for they have been used by literally thousands of folks over 100+ years without success. I am sure there are folks who will strongly disagree with me on this, but I am not even sure the mine is within what WE call the "Superstitions" today, but in a nearby area where gold has been produced in the past. You are oh-so-right about history getting changed one word at a time too - we can see it happen even here:

"It lies within an imaginery circle...five miles etc"
The Lost Dutchman lies within a circle five miles in diameter"

It happens often times quite innocently, and often enough when someone assumes something to mean something, like "it" must refer to the "Lost Dutchman" for instance.

PSS Are you thinking of putting the Bully Bueno back into production?

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Roy,

There is a man who has already placed a claim on the mine. I don't believe it will ever be worked.....to any extent, but who knows. I did not look for it with the intention of becoming a miner. It had rich surface ore, but pinched out quickly. Not unusual for the area.

It's the history of the thing that intrigues me.

The information will be coming your way in a few minutes.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Hello Joe,

I got a very similar reply to an email I sent to Mr Chandler, so I cannot prove what I saw. Not for the moment anyway. He did add that they have no records of any shipments of any kind for anyone from Arizona for that time period, not just Walz/Waltz.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

Setting aside the ore shipments to anywhere from Jacob Waltz, what are we left with?

I can tell you this: In 1849 pure gold sold to the mint for $20.67 a troy ounce. The price for gold dust and nuggets sold at the, fixed, price of $16 a troy ounce. What that means, is that the amount or ore needed to reach that $250,000 has been increased dramatically.

First, there would be no way to keep those kind of shipments a secret.....especially in those days of the "Arizona Gold Rush". Too many people had to be involved to move that kind of ore. Second, no mint purchased "gold ore". It had to be refined elsewhere down into pure gold to be sold to the mints. That process would have been done in Arizona.

Try to picture Waltz, or for that matter anyone, moving enough ore to extract $250,000 worth of refined gold to sell to a mint. That would have entailed wearing out a bit of boot leather, not to mention muleflesh just to get the ore to the refiner. Remember this "ore" had to be packed out of the Superstitions to the nearest mill, and then rendered down into pure gold......prior to shipment to any mint.

Other than stories and one very questionable "Accountable Warrant" we are left with the two sworn affidavits from Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn that they have seen an assay report with Dick Holmes name on it from the Goldman's store in Phoenix. That assay report, the ore, the jewelry and the lighter is all owned by one person. He received the "evidence" from Brownie Holmes who said it came from his dad. Neither affidavit states how much Holmes was paid for the ore.

That "owner" has provided statements, to different people, that are provably false. At what point do we assume we are getting truthful information from him. Why should we trust the "artifacts"? The assay report that was viewed showed no mine or any connection to Jacob Waltz and the LDM.

There is no doubt in my mind that Waltz did have some gold ore squirreled away on his property and under his deathbed. These questions remain: How much ore did he have and where did it come from? 50# of raw gold, nuggets or dust...., no quartz, would have been worth $9600 at Goldman's store.

My guess is that he had much less gold in his lifetime than what has been alleged.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[El Gato]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

CJ wrote:
"My guess is that he had much less gold in his lifetime than what has been alleged.

Joe Ribaudo"



CJ

I have to agree with you!

According to the story that Ely told in his book. Waltz was only at the mine three times.

First trip –
Waltz and his partner went to the mine with some Peraltas.

Second trip –
Waltz and his partner returned to the mine, worked it for a few weeks and made three caches, (One large and two small ones) before Waltz had to leave and go to town for supplies. Upon returning from his trip to town Waltz found the camp destroyed and his partner missing. (assumed dead). He loaded up one of the small caches and left. He sold all of this ore in Tucson on the way to Sonora to tell Peralta what had happened at the mine.

Third trip –
Ely wrote that Julia told him that Waltz returned to the area some time later and removed the other small cache, and that Waltz told her that they would retrieve the large cache when he took her and Rhinhardt into the mountains.

It appears that Waltz only worked the mine one time (during his second trip to it) and that he lived the rest of his life off of the two small caches he and his partner made during that trip. The ore from the candle box (approx 50 pounds) under his bed when he died was supposed to have been what was left of the second small cache.

It is a simple story that is consistent with the way Waltz lived out his final years.

El Gato

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

thank you... El gato & CJ ...


you just help me catch waltz in a out right lie ....

more importian you help me prove what the truth is ....! .....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Hola: hmmm

"He sold all of this ore in Tucson on the way to Sonora to tell Peralta what had happened at the mine."
~~~~~~~~~

Am I missing something here?
Why didn't he stop off at DJUI"S first?
On second thougt isn't ther a bit of time difference here?

Don Jose de La Mancha