histroy of the cave /tunnel

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Hola: hmmm

"He sold all of this ore in Tucson on the way to Sonora to tell Peralta what had happened at the mine."
~~~~~~~~~

Am I missing something here?
Why didn't he stop off at DJUI"S first?
On second thougt isn't ther a bit of time difference here?

Don Jose de La Mancha

waltz dose not tell julia about his trip with the nephew ...lol i think you know why ,,,? for that matter he dose not tell julia the truth about the frist trip ether because of what happen to the peralta



what he told dick holmes is the truth about killing the peralta and the nephew . he changes the story when he tells julia ely only knew what julia told him . remember what clay worst says browie told him ....


i just caught waltz in a out right lie and i know why ...

he did not tell julia the truth ,he didnot want her to know he had gone into the mts 4 times .. she would have put two and two togather and figerd out what happen to the nephew ... he dose not tell her about killing the peralta ...

dick holmes acount says one thing but what clay worst says what browie told him is not the same ...

waltz tells dick one thing and julia lie to cover up what happen to the peralta and the nephew ...

what is the truth . walta was alone and he killed the peralta . latter he kills the nephew .. and then lies to hide the fact from julia...ely repetes the lies . and browie holmes tells clay worst the truth ... clay dose not under stand that browie has told him the truth about waltz beiing alone when he finds the mine , but look at what ely says julia told him , he was with his partner ...

if he told dick the truth why lie to julia ... if he told julia the truth why lie to dick holmes ..

logic tells us . he told dick holmes the truth and lied to julia ..


he did not want her to know he killed 7 men ...

look at the facts as we know them

he killed the peralta ,they had ore on them at the time .he tells julia . about the secound trip but it was two trips in one .. the nephew trip and the wiser trip mix togather ...


wiser is missing .and the trip to tucson never took place unless waltz was going there to sell the peralta gold ... and it was not part of the 3 caches , what julia didnt know could not hert her .....

you under stand what i am saying . if dick holmes told browie holmes what clay worst repeted as the truth , then waltz was alone when he found the mine ... if thats true then why lie to julia ....?

waltz was alone and he killed the 3 peralta and the nephew ....why tell julia he went to tell the peralta what happen ... . because he could not tell her he killed them stold their gold ore and sold it in tucson ....

he dose not want to tell her he killed the nephew so he tells her he has only been to the mine 3 times when in fact he has been there 5-6 times ....

once when he killed the nephew and once when he killed the miner and once when he killed the two solders ....

selective memmory i gess ....?

 

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[El Gato]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman

Forget about what you read in the Holmes Manuscript. There never was a nephew.

No body buried in the floor of a cave with a chain around it's neck at Agua Escondido either, unless it was someone that Dick Holmes had prior knowledge of and used to flesh out his phony story.

So, you think you found that cave in the Superstitions? Do you know where Agua Escondido is?

The entire Holmes Manuscript is made up from a mix of stories the Homles family collected over the years. Do you really believe that if Dick H. ever trailed the Dutchman to any certain place the Holmes family would have ever revealed that location? It is all a diversion. Same as the phony sets of Bark Notes that have been circulating for he last 50-60 years.

Ely wrote the truth as he knew it, almost on his own deathbed. When it came out in his book, the stories led to certain areas in the mountains that made Bark's descendants (who were actively looking for the mine) uneasy. The first set of phony Bark Notes was intentionally circulated to cast doubt on what Ely had written.

The Holmes family were not the only ones playing the "muddy up the waters" and send people on "wild goose chase" game.

The Mexican fire beds and the cave of Mexican sandals that Ely and Bark found and Ely wrote about are probably the only real stories (other than what might be found in the Gassler Manuscript) that give any clue to the location of the LDM.

El Gato

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

LOL you got that the facts backwards ...
i found 29 sites 5 caves ...

the dick holmes acount has some facts and some lies . so dose the ely acount . thats because he got his acount from julia .. and it is a fact waltz lied to julia about killing the peralta and the nephew ...


what ely says is heresay ..

dick tells browie he was alone when he shot the peralta and stold there gold and mine ... thats not what he tells julia lol ...



see i can be wrong too . i saw what i beleived was the remains of about 7 house . they truned out to be the remains of a large wooden bridge to a unknown mine shaft ..

someone destoryed the bridge and hide any sign of it being there .. i guess they did not do as good a job as they had hope too ...

you believe what you want ....i am glad you believe what you do ...lol

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman

Forget about what you read in the Holmes Manuscript. There never was a nephew.

No body buried in the floor of a cave with a chain around it's neck at Agua Escondido either, unless it was someone that Dick Holmes had prior knowledge of and used to flesh out his phony story.

So, you think you found that cave in the Superstitions? Do you know where Agua Escondido is?

The entire Holmes Manuscript is made up from a mix of stories the Homles family collected over the years. Do you really believe that if Dick H. ever trailed the Dutchman to any certain place the Holmes family would have ever revealed that location? It is all a diversion. Same as the phony sets of Bark Notes that have been circulating for he last 50-60 years.

Ely wrote the truth as he knew it, almost on his own deathbed. When it came out in his book, the stories led to certain areas in the mountains that made Bark's descendants (who were actively looking for the mine) uneasy. The first set of phony Bark Notes was intentionally circulated to cast doubt on what Ely had written.

The Holmes family were not the only ones playing the "muddy up the waters" and send people on "wild goose chase" game.

The Mexican fire beds and the cave of Mexican sandals that Ely and Bark found and Ely wrote about are probably the only real stories (other than what might be found in the Gassler Manuscript) that give any clue to the location of the LDM.

El Gato

"No body buried in the floor of a cave with a chain around it's neck at Agua Escondido."who said anyone was buried in a cave ...?" i never did ..

but never said the shelving rock has a date on it ether ....

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Bowman,

Looks like Randy no longer wants to have his words or thoughts associated with such meaningless conversations. Can't say that I blame him...... if that was the reason for his deletions.

I have decided to take another course and put your name on "ignore". It's been fun, but is just getting too old now.

Take care of yourself,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[El Gato]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman wrote -

"and it is a fact waltz lied to julia about killing the peralta and the nephew"



Blindbowman

Sorry buddy, but there is no mention of the nephew in Julia's story to Ely or anywhere in Ely's book. That is all Holmes nonsense!

El Gato

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman wrote -

"and it is a fact waltz lied to julia about killing the peralta and the nephew"



Blindbowman

Sorry buddy, but there is no mention of the nephew in Julia's story to Ely or anywhere in Ely's book. That is all Holmes nonsense!

El Gato

thats just my piont El Gato .

there is nothing in Ely's acount that he got from julia . that tells us julia was not told the truth by waltz .. she could not tell Ely if she did not know it to start with . but the fact waltz told dick holmes one story and told julia another means logical one of those stories is a lie . and most likely it has to be the julia acount .. why lie to dick holmes when the man is dieing . thats dosent prove anything .. but if he lied to julia we see his reason and it makes logical sence why he lied to julia .. he did not want to tell julia he had killed those people ..
Ely's story come after the fact . i dont disrespect his story . he stated what he had been told by julia and she stated what she had been told bu waltz , the fact remains waltz lied to julia to save face in her eyes , he cared about her and did not want her to see him as a killer ...


how anyone can take Ely's acount over dick holmes's just shocks me .. Ely's is secound best not fristhand .

dont get me wrong i beleive Ely was tell the truth about what he was told by julia in fact it makes me even beleive his story even more .. because it helps show waltz's lie to her for what it was ...

it also pionts out two other lies waltz told dick holmes ....


EL gato ..

why would julia lie to Ely ...?

why would Ely lie about what she had told him ...?

why would dick holmes lie to browie ...?

why would browie holmes lie to clay worst ...?

why would clay worst lie in his acount of what browie told him ...?

the fact is if i am right . none of them lied to anyone ... waltz lied to julia and this is all the side effects of that lie ...! and we see a clear motive for waltz to telling that lie ....

"That is all Holmes nonsense!"

it looks that way if you think dick holmes lied . i dont believe he lied to anyone ...

i beleive waltz was the one lieing and it was about the killings ...

he told dick holmes the truth but he scrampled the dirrections so dick holmes could not find the mine . hopeing julia would hear the acount told to dick holmes and under stand where the mine was . dick never told julia the acount so she never knew what waltz had told him ...

i dont dout the acount Ely told in fact i beleive he was telling us just what julia was told by waltz ...


i think that dick holmes was telling the truth as well ... from what he was told by waltz ...


nothing clay worst stated was not true of what was told to dick holmes by the waltz ..

see ely julia and dick holmes all tell the truth . waltz just tells them diffrent amonts of the same story with the lie in julia's

if he tells her he killed those people she could have thrown him out and he liked julia ...

in fact i think he liked her so much he beleived the truth would hert her feelings ....

if that ant motive i dont know what is ..!


the lie makes confussion and distrust .. dick holmes is looked at as a liar and a thife .. he was nether ...

Ely and dicks acounts were diffrent they both looked untrust worthy when in fact they were both telling the truth as they knew it to be ...

these people all spent their lifes out in those mts trying to find the LDM when waltz had told a lie to save julia the pain that the truth would bring her and the effects of that lie took her life and many more over the years to come ...

i think they all told the truth as they knew it . and waltz told the truth about the mine and its dirrection with the exception of scrampleing them for dick holmes ...

i prove that the location is out there . i beleive the dick holmes acout and the Ely and julia acounts and yes i beleive waltz lie to julia ...

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Bowman,

Looks like Randy no longer wants to have his words or thoughts associated with such meaningless conversations. Can't say that I blame him...... if that was the reason for his deletions.

I have decided to take another course and put your name on "ignore". It's been fun, but is just getting too old now.

Take care of yourself,

Joe Ribaudo

i am sorry to see you so close minded my friend , but that is up to you . before you go let me ask you one question have you ever herd of a two story high bridge made for ore wagons in the supers
the bridge was about 75 yards long and was almost total destoryed to hide it was ever there at all .. but i can prove it was there at one time ...


we thaught they were where timbers were put to built house .. that is not the case . we had a engneer look at them and he told us that there was no dout the wholes were made to subport a 40 ft high " wooden bridge ...." maybe for small ore cards of some kind ....

he went on to tell us why he believed it was a bridge and pionted out what told him it was a bridge and not some other kind of structure...


but you do what you must . you could not answer any of my question before most likely you still cant ... good luck CJ ...more power to ya ...

i never put anyone on ignore,, let me know how that works ...


i just asumed that if you knew a 10th of what you say you know, you could not have missed a 75 ft long 30-40ft high scaffolding clue ...it would be kind of hard to miss lol ...we have known about it for 8 months and never knew it was a scaffolding structure... to my under standing it may be the largest manmade structure to have ever been out in the supers ....unless you count mine shafts ...as structure ...

i can only guess it was way before most other white men got to the mt range . or we would see others telling us about it ...


the wholes in the rock walls of the cliff prove the scaffolding was real /...at one time hunderds of ore wagons move along that scaffolding bridge and wore marks on the side of the cliff .

do you under stand what i am saying to you ...i cant prove the tayopa is here i can prove a vast mine system was worked at this site and was well hiden . almost totally destoryed and coverd up


a picture may hold a thousand words . few ever see more then half...

when the spirit can walk free , it can see far more then when it is held within the human shell ...

 

[gallileo60]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Well you might be a rare kind of shaman, but you spell bad.....

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Well you might be a rare kind of shaman, but you spell bad.....

lol i dont need to spell in my world .only when i come to your world ......

 

[gallileo60]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Well you might be a rare kind of shaman, but you spell bad.....

lol i dont need to spell in my world .only when i come to your world ......

Good one....

 

[El Gato]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman,

I wrongly assumed you had read Sims Ely's book. Your response shows that you have not.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool, than it is to open it and prove it". ~Abraham Lincoln~

El Gato

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman,

I wrongly assumed you had read Sims Ely's book. Your response shows that you have not.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool, than it is to open it and prove it". ~Abraham Lincoln~

El Gato

i dont need to read second hand fiction acounts to know they are ....

i have no plans what so ever of reading his book ......he did not find the LDM did he .. i guess he didnt know as much as he led you to beleive he did . maybe he was better at book sales then treasure hunting ...lol,

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Bob,

"I've seen evidence of the bridges your talking about at old Spanish Mine's in Arkansas."

Do you know what kind of mines those were, or how "old" (era) they were?

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

i just asumed that if you knew a 10th of what you say you know, you could not have missed a 75 ft long 30-40ft high scaffolding clue ...it would be kind of hard to miss lol ...we have known about it for 8 months and never knew it was a scaffolding structure... to my under standing it may be the largest manmade structure to have ever been out in the supers ....unless you count mine shafts ...as structure ...

i can only guess it was way before most other white men got to the mt range . or we would see others telling us about it ...


the wholes in the rock walls of the cliff prove the scaffolding was real /...at one time hunderds of ore wagons move along that scaffolding bridge and wore marks on the side of the cliff .

do you under stand what i am saying to you ...i cant prove the tayopa is here i can prove a vast mine system was worked at this site and was well hiden . almost totally destoryed and coverd up


a picture may hold a thousand words . few ever see more then half...

when the spirit can walk free , it can see far more then when it is held within the human shell ...

BB,

I believe your on to something here. I've seen evidence of the bridges your talking about at old Spanish Mine's in Arkansas. It makes sense.

The Miners would cover up the road and bridge or out right destroy the bridge leaving only the holes in the rock for the wooden beams and some small amounts of stone work at the lower foundation.

The Indian uprising probably had something to do with the bridge not being totally destroyed. When is your next expedition? I would like to see that old bridge.

BC

"
Toltec Mounds Archeological State Park
490 Toltec Mounds Road, Scott, AR 72142 (501)961-9442

Toltec preserves and interprets Arkansas' tallest native American mounds. These mounds and earthen embankment are the remains of a large ceremonial and governmental complex inhabited from A.D. 600 to 950. Today this center is managed by the Arkansas State Parks and the Arkansas Archeological Survey. Facilities include a visitor center with exhibits, an A/V theater and archeological research laboratory. Site tours are available along the park's 3/4 mile handicap accessible trail.

"

some times it what we know as fact that missled us the most .....!

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman,

I wrongly assumed you had read Sims Ely's book. Your response shows that you have not.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool, than it is to open it and prove it". ~Abraham Lincoln~

El Gato

i dont need to read second hand fiction acounts to know they are ....

i have no plans what so ever of reading his book ......he did not find the LDM did he .. i guess he didnt know as much as he led you to beleive he did . maybe he was better at book sales then treasure hunting ...lol,

As a researcher you should know the value of all potential leads and information - you do yourself a great dis-service by not reading Ely's book - it's written in a "story"/fiction manner in many areas, but there is a great deal of valuable information - much of it firsthand accounts from some of the most prominent characters in the LDM saga.

For someone who claims to have their eyes wider open than everyone else, your responses and research techniques seem awfully narrow minded at times.

As an aside - hope your brother is doing better.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Cubfan,

"As a researcher you should know the value of all potential leads and information - you do yourself a great dis-service by not reading Ely's book - it's written in a "story"/fiction manner in many areas, but there is a great deal of valuable information - much of it firsthand accounts from some of the most prominent characters in the LDM saga."

To my everlasting regret, I have been guilty of the same thing......in the past. These days I have learned to read even those accounts I think might be pure fiction. I usually make that assessment by reading the first few pages of the book, sometimes just the stuff on the cover.

I don't believe Ely's book is written (any part) as "fiction". Beyond his first hand accounts, he simply repeats the stories that have been passed along to him. many of those stories may very well have been complete fabrications, but I don't think Ely doubted their truthfulness.....well, maybe a little.

IMHO, No writer of importance has ever been closer to this legend than Sim's Ely and by extension, Jim Bark.

Take care,

Joe

 

[El Gato]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

The last words in Mr Ely’s book read:

In Jim’s last years, he used to say, “Hunting the Dutchman is not for old men, Nor for old prospectors who sit on park benches in our western towns—still filled with hope, exaggeration, specimens and nicotine, They must step aside and let the younger generation hunt the Dutchman, chew their own tobacco, tell their own lies and buy or steal their own specimens. Someone, someday will fit the parts together more successfully than we have done. Good luck to him!”

I cannot read these words without believing that he told the story exactly the way he believed it to be. That is something that I cannot say for contemporary authors and speakers on the subject.

El Gato

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Blindbowman,

I wrongly assumed you had read Sims Ely's book. Your response shows that you have not.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you a fool, than it is to open it and prove it". ~Abraham Lincoln~

El Gato

i dont need to read second hand fiction acounts to know they are ....

i have no plans what so ever of reading his book ......he did not find the LDM did he .. i guess he didnt know as much as he led you to beleive he did . maybe he was better at book sales then treasure hunting ...lol,

As a researcher you should know the value of all potential leads and information - you do yourself a great dis-service by not reading Ely's book - it's written in a "story"/fiction manner in many areas, but there is a great deal of valuable information - much of it firsthand accounts from some of the most prominent characters in the LDM saga.

For someone who claims to have their eyes wider open than everyone else, your responses and research techniques seem awfully narrow minded at times.

As an aside - hope your brother is doing better.

at this piont i do not have the time to research his work . out of 29 sites we have 5 that are out right postives , we have facts that something is at those sites .. we have 12 site that are 50% or better ..

it is not that ely's work is not worth of reading ,i just do not have the time at this piont to do so ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

EG,

To save some folks the mistake of wasting time on the "contemporary authors and speakers on the subject" that you feel don't believe the stories they pass along, could you name them?

There are a number of books that I was warned away from over the years. Those warnings, for the most part, came from people who's opinion I respected.

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo