Holmes "Missing" directions

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

That's possible, but here's another theory to add to the mix.

"The three manuscripts were two that Higham had written and the Holmes manuscript."

What if Charles Frederick Higham actually wrote the Holmes Manuscript, and was the "stranger" that was with Dane Coolidge and his cowboy friends?

This kind of story would be right up the alley of this author. Most of it could have originated with the stories that were floating around after Waltz's death.
When it first came to light, Brownie was telling the truth....He had never seen
it before.

Brownie was asked about it a million times. Believe he got tired of people asking him about it and having to deny he wrote it. Sometime around 1950, he decides to make it his own. He adds the family history and his own search into the story thinking to publish it and make some money.

What the family sees, is Brownie adding that history to Higham's Manuscript. They swear, Brownie wrote the whole thing.....which is doubtful,
but perhaps none of them knew the whole story, assuming that's how it went down.

This theory makes a lot of sense to me. What will add some wood to that fire,
is getting the original manuscript from the State Library. I believe it's available to copy, or at least view.

Joe

 

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[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe,

I see where youre going with it. That makes as good as sense as anything.

Does your book from Coolidge give the "directions" in that book?

That will be the "smoking gun" for me one way or the other. Say Higham did write the manuscript (very likely by your last statements). If they DID NOT contain the directions, that could still make the "directions" part of the manuscript real. Meaning the "directions" could have been put in there by Brownie, as you said he may have "added" to it, and actually be REAL. Yet another reason for Brownie to disown it. He may have regreted putting those in there and wanted to act like it was ALL false. When in reality, the directions may have been real, he just changed his mind about them getting "out" to the public.

If they ARE in the Coolidge book, the whole darn thing could be made up. (I for one, hope not!!)

I dont know if this is making as much sense to you as it does to me but, like i said before, i think youre onto something.

Thanks again,
Travis

Im off to read a Nikola Tesla book, need to not think about the Dutchman anymore tonight!!

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe,

One more question.

When you say State Library, are you referring to ASU?

Travis

 

[Ellie Baba]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hi Travis,

I came across this statement while browsing through your thread:

Here is the most interesting part for me. One of the "clues" related to the Lost Dutchman says "There is a symbol near the mine that contains a Triangle, Circle, and a Crescent". In my opinion, i have seen these symbols on the Stone maps. Does this mean that the Lost Dutchman is part of the Stone maps? Maybe, maybe not. Again, i don't care, but it is interesting.

May I inquire as to where this information can be found?

Have great week!

Ellie Baba

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hi Travis,

I came across this statement while browsing through your thread:

Here is the most interesting part for me. One of the "clues" related to the Lost Dutchman says "There is a symbol near the mine that contains a Triangle, Circle, and a Crescent". In my opinion, i have seen these symbols on the Stone maps. Does this mean that the Lost Dutchman is part of the Stone maps? Maybe, maybe not. Again, i don't care, but it is interesting.

May I inquire as to where this information can be found?

Have great week!

Ellie Baba

Hello Ellie,

I found that on the net when i was browsing around before i signed up here. It was credited to "Diaz" and that was it. I have no idea if it comes from a book or somewhere else. I could have nothing at all to do with The Lost Dutchman for all i know.

I just try to write everything i come across down in my notes just in case.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe,

One more question.

When you say State Library, are you referring to ASU?

Travis

Travis,

I believe this is what you are looking for: http://www.lib.az.us/Default.aspx

Let me know what you find out.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Thanks Joe, I will see what i can find.

Did you miss the question about the Coolidge book?

Does it give the "directions" in that version?

If you dont wish to answer, let me know and i will quit asking you.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

I will look at it again tonight. No problem with giving you and answer, just need to reread it.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

There are no directions in the story.

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe,

Thanks again for looking at that. I didnt have any time today but i am hoping tomorrow i can get by the Library.

In a bit i will post a "timeline" i put together this afternoon reguarding the this whole discussion. I would appreciate any input if there is anything "wrong" (known, unknown history, etc.)

The way i'm looking at it, the information you provided last night and today, along with some new info i received today, gives a possibility of the DATE that the "story" that ends up in the "modern Manuscript" could have been written/made up.

This is MAJOR in my opinion. In my eyes, its really hard to argue, unless someone has "inside" information. Some of it of course includes my opinion but, its still interesting to ponder.

Thanks again,
Travis

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis ,

I think your being mislead a little concerning the story in Dane Coolidges book, Arizona cowboys.

Dane Coolidge didn't write the account in 1903.

"zentull" confused an earlier passage in the book that was talking about the author which said,
"In 1903 his (Coolidge) wanderings brought him to the Verde River Valley of central Arizona where he wrote the stories and took the photographs that comprise Arizona Cowboys."

That passage doesn't say Coolidge wrote the accounts in 1903, it says Coolidge came to the Verde River Valley in 1903. Coolidge wrote the stories while in the Verde River Valley. The book was published in 1938. All of the stories given in the account appeared in one form or another in the Arizona Republic and Tucson Star between 1922 and 1938 covering the annual Pioneers reunions held every year in April in Phoenix where hundreds of old timers would get together and relate stories and tales of the Arizona pioneer period. These stories circulated around Arizona for years and had many different variations as early as the early 1920's.

The lead in to the account in the book was left out. Johnny Jones gives the account and he was talking to a stranger that stopped by the ranch. Here is what it says,

"The stranger never knew that Johnny was kidding him and he (Johnny) went on with such tall stories about the Lost Dutchman Mine that he had us all google-eyed."

The account over the next 10-12 pages is a comprise of all the old stories well known and circulated around Arizona at the time, with Johnnys special twist to each one.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

All,

Here is a sort of "timeline" I put together from the recent information Joe has provided, as well as something i read today reguarding the earlier post from Joe about the "Coolidge" story.

A lot of this is just opinion as the "facts" are still questionable because, i wasnt there but, it still could provide an answer to when and how the "story" around the Manuscript evolved to what we see today. While it still doesnt answer definatively "Who" wrote the Manuscript, it does, in my opinion narrow the story down a bit closer to who the source might have been.

1891-1903
A similar "story" to the modern Manuscript develops and by 1903 is being circulated by word of mouth around the Phoenix area.
Who started it? Dick Holmes, Coolidge himself, Unknown source??

1903-1904
Coolidge is in the Phoenix area and hears the story from a "stranger".

1938
The "story" comes out in a book by Coolidge called "Arizona Cowboys", Chapter 8 "The Lost Dutchman Mine"
This story by Coolidge DOES NOT contain the DIRECTIONS like the Modern Manuscript has in it.

1963
A letter written by Higham makes a referrence to Coolidge. It says "Every sensational and fiction minded writer jumped on a simple little story by Dane Coolidge in the early 1900's only a few years after he had written the story"

Possible sources for the "Modern Version"
1) Higham wrote his own version of the old story. (I am not saying he plagiarized from Coolidge, im saying Higham heard the story and wrote his own version)
2) Brownie re-wrote the story so his Father Dick didnt look "bad" like the Coolidge story portrays. (This could have been a real story Brownie already knew from growing up around the "source" and he wrote down the "real" version and that is why Brownies version is different. Brownie didnt plagiarize either)
3) Higham wrote the "story" based on the "old" story, cleaned it up to match what Brownie knew including the directions and the family history.

Brownie didnt want to associate with the Manuscript. Why??
1) Brownie didnt want to be associated with Coolidge? (His story)
2) Brownie didnt want to be associated with Higham?
3) Brownie didnt like the "discrepancies" in the story?
4) Brownie Healed from his accident better than he thought and didnt want the "directions" to get out to the public? (As Thomas Glover says)

My thoughts:
If Coolidge really did hear the "story" around 1903, then the basic story in the Manuscript was made up BEFORE 1903. Coolidge also could have heard a "distorted" version of the story.

If Brownie was involved in the "Modern Version", he could have just added the "facts" that he knew. Things like his Father following Waltz, and the directions, etc. It basically took the story that was already "out" and filled in the things that were "missing" or "incorrect". (According to Brownie anyway)

The whole point, in my opinion, is that its apparent that the basic story was "out", at the most, 12 years after Waltz had died. And its very likely that it was out well before that. It was already an established "word of mouth" story by the time Coolidge heard it in 1903. (This is of course all based on whether Coolidge really heard it from a "stranger", or made it all up himself)

In my opinion, that means its possible that Dick Holmes himself pieced together the "basics" of the Modern Version to "cover" himself for taking the gold. Why was the Coolidge version slightly different? Maybe the "stranger" wasnt friendly with Dick Holmes and changed some things to make him look "bad"? Maybe Coolidge didnt decide to write the whole story down until 30 years later and "fudged" some of the details because he was relying on memory?

My personal belief is that Brownie added the REAL directions (maybe/probably not all of them) and the family history to an already existing story. Maybe a "real" story, possibly from his own family, but an existing story none the less.

Just my thoughts on it.

thanks,
Travis

Based on this information, I believe now we at least have the "when", even if we dont have the "who" pegged down for sure.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis ,

I think your being mislead a little concerning the story in Dane Coolidges book, Arizona cowboys.

Dane Coolidge didn't write the account in 1903.

"zentull" confused an earlier passage in the book that was talking about the author which said,
"In 1903 his (Coolidge) wanderings brought him to the Verde River Valley of central Arizona where he wrote the stories and took the photographs that comprise Arizona Cowboys."

That passage doesn't say Coolidge wrote the accounts in 1903, it says Coolidge came to the Verde River Valley in 1903. Coolidge wrote the stories while in the Verde River Valley. The book was published in 1938. All of the stories given in the account appeared in one form or another in the Arizona Republic and Tucson Star between 1922 and 1938 covering the annual Pioneers reunions held every year in April in Phoenix where hundreds of old timers would get together and relate stories and tales of the Arizona pioneer period. These stories circulated around Arizona for years and had many different variations as early as the early 1920's.

The lead in to the account in the book was left out. Johnny Jones gives the account and he was talking to a stranger that stopped by the ranch. Here is what it says,

"The stranger never knew that Johnny was kidding him and he (Johnny) went on with such tall stories about the Lost Dutchman Mine that he had us all google-eyed."

The account over the next 10-12 pages is a comprise of all the old stories well known and circulated around Arizona at the time, with Johnnys special twist to each one.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

Will,

A little earlier Joe had posted that he had a first edition that was from 1938. Joe was saying that Coolidge could have "heard" the story in 1903.

In my opinion, the whole "Johnny" story still could mean that Johnny heard it somewhere, even if he added his own "flavor" to it. Johnny still could have heard the "basic" story from a REAL story that was circulating.

You yourself just said that it was "all the old stories well known and circulated around Arizona at the time". In my opinion, just because Johnny added "flavor", doesnt mean the original stories werent true. Spiced up, maybe, but they still could be true. The way you put it, Johnny evidently didnt make up the story, just added to an existing one.

If anything, if the story was "well known and circulated", that could prove that the "original" story started well before Johnny told it.

again, just my opinion.
Thanks,
Travis

And after i posted this, i realized that i had skipped that part on my notes and left it out! I went back and added that so it should make sense now.

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

Its hard to follow exactly what your point is and what you are trying to learn. You have gone down so many different rabbit trails bringing Dane Coolidge, Higham , Brownie and so many others into the mix and mixing them all together as if they all were part of the same thing, that its impossible to sort out the mess. What is it exactly you are trying to get to the bottom of ? Or are you just researching and brainstorming everything that comes up at any time of the day ?

If your trying to find out who wrote, The Story of the Lost Dutchman (1944) by George (Brownie) Holmes, it was Geroge Brownie Holmes.

If your trying to find out who wrote the early so called "Holmes manuscripts", all or parts of them, Brownie said it was Charles D. Kenison.

If your trying to find out something that ties together Higham, Coolidge, and others to Brownie in the manuscript history, I can't help you because they had nothing to do with each other.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

Its hard to follow exactly what your point is and what you are trying to learn. You have gone down so many different rabbit trails bringing Dane Coolidge, Higham , Brownie and so many others into the mix and mixing them all together as if they all were part of the same thing, that its impossible to sort out the mess. What is it exactly you are trying to get to the bottom of ? Or are you just researching and brainstorming everything that comes up at any time of the day ?

If your trying to find out who wrote, The Story of the Lost Dutchman (1944) by George (Brownie) Holmes, it was Geroge Brownie Holmes.

If your trying to find out who wrote the early so called "Holmes manuscripts", all or parts of them, Brownie said it was Charles D. Kenison.

If your trying to find out something that ties together Higham, Coolidge, and others to Brownie in the manuscript history, I can't help you because they had nothing to do with each other.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

Will,

I am trying to establish WHEN the actual STORY surrounding the "directions" and "family history" in the Manuscript was actually first heard of. Thats all. It is my opinion that Dick Holmes made it up, hence the reason your "Johnny" was telling a version of it so long ago. This is just my opinion. Based on what i typed earlier, i believe that COULD show that the "story" part of it, is very old. Where it came from i dont know.

I am not trying to tie anyone together necessarily, and i apologize if my writing wasnt clear. It was to me but, that doesnt mean much when youre trying to type what your thinking.

And, no offense to anyone but, if Brownie were still around, and he tried to tell me he didnt have at least a "part" in the Manuscript, i would tell him he's full of it. To his face. Even someone with a degree in Underwater Basketweaving can see that he had SOME input in the modern version. All you have to do is listen to Clay Worst tell the story. Again, this is still my opinion and i could be wrong.

It may be a "rabbit trail" im following, but i think i just got a little closer to his "hole".

Thanks again,
Travis

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Will,

I would like to ad that what i am really trying to get down to is this.

Are the clues in the modern version of the Manuscript real?

I believe they are. This is why I believe Brownie was involved in the Manuscript. He provided REAL clues/directions to an OLD story (maybe from his father, maybe not/ maybe false altogether) in the hopes of making money or, giving out a clue or two so someone would find the house and have him help with finding the mine.

So, finding out how far back that "story" goes, is important to me. And Joe just "triggered" something last night that actually gave me a "trail" to follow that story back quite aways. I also got some help today about the Higham letter but, the person who helped me with that i will not say unless they are ok with me letting that out.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis ,

I think your being mislead a little concerning the story in Dane Coolidges book, Arizona cowboys.

Dane Coolidge didn't write the account in 1903.

"zentull" confused an earlier passage in the book that was talking about the author which said,
"In 1903 his (Coolidge) wanderings brought him to the Verde River Valley of central Arizona where he wrote the stories and took the photographs that comprise Arizona Cowboys."

That passage doesn't say Coolidge wrote the accounts in 1903, it says Coolidge came to the Verde River Valley in 1903. Coolidge wrote the stories while in the Verde River Valley. The book was published in 1938. All of the stories given in the account appeared in one form or another in the Arizona Republic and Tucson Star between 1922 and 1938 covering the annual Pioneers reunions held every year in April in Phoenix where hundreds of old timers would get together and relate stories and tales of the Arizona pioneer period. These stories circulated around Arizona for years and had many different variations as early as the early 1920's.

The lead in to the account in the book was left out. Johnny Jones gives the account and he was talking to a stranger that stopped by the ranch. Here is what it says,

"The stranger never knew that Johnny was kidding him and he (Johnny) went on with such tall stories about the Lost Dutchman Mine that he had us all google-eyed."

The account over the next 10-12 pages is a comprise of all the old stories well known and circulated around Arizona at the time, with Johnnys special twist to each one.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

Will,

A little earlier Joe had posted that he had a first edition that was from 1938. Joe was saying that Coolidge could have "heard" the story in 1903.

In my opinion, the whole "Johnny" story still could mean that Johnny heard it somewhere, even if he added his own "flavor" to it. Johnny still could have heard the "basic" story from a REAL story that was circulating.

You yourself just said that it was "all the old stories well known and circulated around Arizona at the time". In my opinion, just because Johnny added "flavor", doesnt mean the original stories werent true. Spiced up, maybe, but they still could be true. The way you put it, Johnny evidently didnt make up the story, just added to an existing one.

If anything, if the story was "well known and circulated", that could prove that the "original" story started well before Johnny told it.

again, just my opinion.
Thanks,
Travis

And after i posted this, i realized that i had skipped that part on my notes and left it out! I went back and added that so it should make sense now.

Mr. Johnson,

Travis is not being mislead by reading the "facts" as they were presented in the book. Coolidge is very clear that Johnny Jones was with him in the "spring of 1904. In that time period he was riding the range with the hands. He was also taking many of the pictures that are in the book.

As we continue through the chapters, arriving at Chapter 8 Coolidge is relating a story being told to all of the cowboys by Johnny, in the presense of the "stranger". He was only with the Arizona cowboys, including Johnny Jones,
"during the great drought in Arizona in 1903-04."

If you have some kind of evidence that confirms that Cooidge heard this story in some period other than that, please present it. Right now, what I have just written is the "best evidence". The rest is pure conjecture and personal opinion, IMHO.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[wwjohnson]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

Good luck in your efforts to run down the clues and find out how far back the storys go. Hope you find success and the end of the trails ! I'm heading out to the mountains tomorrow for several days to run down some of those clues myself. Plan to also spend some time looking for Jesse Capen.

Best of luck to you

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Will,

Thanks and be safe. I may even run into out there.

Good luck with your search.

Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Will, aascho,

Will you start your search at Jesse's old campsite, or somewhere farther west? There are some bad cliffs over Pistol Canyon that are pretty dangerous. Have you ever followed bike' goz'aa into that area?

Gonosaa'go,

Joe Ribaudo