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ECS

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Do you really think that the only Thomas J. Beale "of Richmond" who matched the exact name and physical description offered in the pamphlet remained ignorant of that fact when that publication was advertised so heavily to so many Lynchburg people who conducted business in Richmond?...
You have a physical description of Alderman Beale?
If the Beale Papers was heavily advertised to "Lynchburg people who conducted business in Richmond", why wasn't it advertised in Richmond.
Still a lot of sound and fury in your posts, full speculation based fulfilling a pet theory, that really signify nothing.
 

franklin

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Yes, but even the author himself said that TJB had been exposed to the sun too long. So how could it be a black man?

Also the author said he wore his hair long which was not a custom at the time. An Indian now could wear his hair long for it was their custom and an Indian can be mistaken for a semi-colored black man.
 

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493261kwph0krn73.gif
 

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bigscoop

bigscoop

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Yes, but even the author himself said that TJB had been exposed to the sun too long. So how could it be a black man?

Also the author said he wore his hair long which was not a custom at the time. An Indian now could wear his hair long for it was their custom and an Indian can be mistaken for a semi-colored black man.

A man of color......"complexion" is defined as being the "natural skin tone" of an individual, this is before any exposure to sun and weather, which is why your author made reference to "as if" instead of "was", and then went on to explain that upon his second return Beale was even "darker then ever" which is to say that he was already dark even before any exposure to sun and weather.

We know for a fact that Thomas J. Beale of Richmond was a free man of color and we understand the limited ways in which men of color could have been either emancipated or born as free men throughout the period, etc. We are also told by the author that he felt that Beale was from some "western portion" of the state, this being in "1817-1822" to which at that time all of the Virginia's were still just one Virginia and governed by the same laws, this however, not being the case after 1863. It's important to remember that the narration was written many years after the events and not during the events as we might expect with a journal or diary. So, in essence, several years after 1817-1822 a man sits down to author a history as best he can within the various limitations imposed on him. This individual has the ciphers, the letters, and the history behind the events in question and during his narration he has provided inaccurate details about the source of the wealth and the manner in which the ciphers were numbered, this last fact insuring that he and the original coder, at the very least, "shared the same knowledge." So, what is the only remaining scenario in which this could be possible if the author is indeed narrating a somewhat altered but true history? Answer - the author had to have known the original coder. PERIOD! All of this is what caused the author of this new theory to ask the right questions and then continue to look for the required proof. :thumbsup:
 

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bigscoop

bigscoop

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Still a lot of sound and fury in your posts, full speculation based fulfilling a pet theory, that really signify nothing.

Yes, yes, you keep telling me that. Apparently the issue is that you and I have been reading different pamphlets, mine containing names and details such as Thomas J. Beale, dark and swarthy, Richmond, etc, etc, etc, and your's containing names and details such as Grandpa Risque, his fabulous library, Book Sellers, Sherlock Holmes, etc., etc., etc.

Have you noticed that each and every time your desperation drives you post something in another effort to slam the door on this new theory that YOU keep slamming and smashing your hand in the door jam? :laughing7:
 

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ECS

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Yes, yes, you keep telling me that. Apparently the issue is that you and I have been reading different pamphlets, mine containing names and details such as Thomas J. Beale, dark and swarthy, Richmond, etc, etc, etc, and your's containing names and details such as Grandpa Risque, his fabulous library, Book Sellers, Sherlock Holmes, etc., etc., etc.

Have you noticed that each and every time your desperation drives you post something in another effort to slam the door on this new theory that YOU keep slamming and smashing your hand in the door jam? :laughing7:
We are all reading the same job pamphlet, its just that we don't jump to conclusions about the narrative text and seek any kind of events or persons than can be utilized to create a pet theory.
It is highly apparent why you constantly employ derision on the fiction compiled from several sources theory, using it a shield, sparing you from the slings and arrows directed at your lack of solid proof for this "theory du jour".
 

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bigscoop

bigscoop

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We are all reading the same job pamphlet, its just that we don't jump to conclusions about the narrative text and seek any kind of events or persons than can be utilized to create a pet theory.
It is highly apparent why you constantly employ derision on the fiction compiled from several sources theory, using it a shield, sparing you from the slings and arrows directed at your lack of solid proof for this "theory du jour".

:laughing7:......if you say so, and I have no illusions about those arrows as I'm certain many do not wish to accept what the author has clearly stated and what has been pointed out in exacting and proper terms. For many here "complexion" must remain a tan and given the many southern backgrounds and values exhibited here this, I suppose, is only natural. We see this again with the name Thomas J. Beale, who these same romances and values must also remain in the helm of these same values and romances even in face of "absolute fact" that there was only one name and description and residence during the era matching this individual, and so and so on.

And, no, we clearly are not reading and referencing from the same pamphlet as nearly "everything I quote and relate to" is a direct result of what is in my copy VS things like Grandpa Risque and his fabulous library, or Book Sellers, etc., etc., which very clearly are not in my copy. :thumbsup: By the way, how's that hand? :laughing7:
 

franklin

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A man of color......"complexion" is defined as being the "natural skin tone" of an individual, this is before any exposure to sun and weather, which is why your author made reference to "as if" instead of "was", and then went on to explain that upon his second return Beale was even "darker then ever" which is to say that he was already dark even before any exposure to sun and weather.

We know for a fact that Thomas J. Beale of Richmond was a free man of color and we understand the limited ways in which men of color could have been either emancipated or born as free men throughout the period, etc. We are also told by the author that he felt that Beale was from some "western portion" of the state, this being in "1817-1822" to which at that time all of the Virginia's were still just one Virginia and governed by the same laws, this however, not being the case after 1863. It's important to remember that the narration was written many years after the events and not during the events as we might expect with a journal or diary. So, in essence, several years after 1817-1822 a man sits down to author a history as best he can within the various limitations imposed on him. This individual has the ciphers, the letters, and the history behind the events in question and during his narration he has provided inaccurate details about the source of the wealth and the manner in which the ciphers were numbered, this last fact insuring that he and the original coder, at the very least, "shared the same knowledge." So, what is the only remaining scenario in which this could be possible if the author is indeed narrating a somewhat altered but true history? Answer - the author had to have known the original coder. PERIOD! All of this is what caused the author of this new theory to ask the right questions and then continue to look for the required proof. :thumbsup:

bigscoop, You are like JBW only the agent for the author yet you are defending this theory of a blackman like it was your own? I don't believe it. No sir not for a minute. TJB of Botetourt County and or Fincastle City was a surveyor, military man and well educated------does not fit the description of a blackman during the Civil War let alone the 1817-1822 eral Forget it and move on to another theory.
 

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bigscoop

bigscoop

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bigscoop, You are like JBW only the agent for the author yet you are defending this theory of a blackman like it was your own? I don't believe it. No sir not for a minute. TJB of Botetourt County and or Fincastle City was a surveyor, military man and well educated------does not fit the description of a blackman during the Civil War let alone the 1817-1822 eral Forget it and move on to another theory.

You fellows, just as has been detailed to me by the new author in previous weeks/months, have so-so much to learn and to consider before you can even begin to draw such conclusions through such narrow windows. Read the following, for starters......this should help you to understand the true "scoop" being conveyed, pardon the pun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_people_of_color
 

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bigscoop

bigscoop

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You fellows, just as has been detailed to me by the new author in previous weeks/months, have so-so much to learn and to consider before you can even begin to draw such conclusions through such narrow windows. Read the following, for starters......this should help you to understand the true "scoop" being conveyed, pardon the pun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_people_of_color

The above might/should even cause you to give pause and to consider the author's timely use of the spelling, "connexions." Or not....up to you.
 

ECS

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The above might/should even cause you to give pause and to consider the author's timely use of the spelling, "connexions." Or not....up to you.
You are still whipping that dead horse theory with "facts" unrelated to the narrative text contained in the 1885 Beale Papers with the vigor of an obsessive agenda.
"Well I don't know, but I been told
If the horse don't pull, you got to carry the load"- The Grateful Dead
Bigscoop, if you insist on promoting this theory, its time to carry the load with REAL direct "connexions" to the Beale story and Ward.
 

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bigscoop

bigscoop

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You are still whipping that dead horse theory with "facts" unrelated to the narrative text contained in the 1885 Beale Papers with the vigor of an obsessive agenda.
"Well I don't know, but I been told
If the horse don't pull, you got to carry the load"- The Grateful Dead
Bigscoop, if you insist on promoting this theory, its time to carry the load with REAL direct "connexions" to the Beale story and Ward.

Well that's the amazing part, already have and it's still right in front of you.....
Remember a while back when I told you that once you discover it you would say to yourself, "Wow! How did I miss that?" Well, it's still here, right in front of you if only you look for it. :laughing7:

In fact, a few post back you even asked me if I had a description of the Richmond, Thomas J. Beale......and to this I will now reply, why do I need as HE wasn't even alive in 1817-1822. A free "man of color" with a first, middle, and last name. Your author has asked you to make the connections and he has provided you ever lead possible towards doing just that.
 

ECS

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At least Littlefield, in his allegory thesis on the "Wizard of Oz" explained the symbolism of the characters and locations in that novel.
In your Beale allegory, what does the buffalo hunt symbolize? The treasure vault? The iron box? The friendly Indians?
...and so on...
 

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bigscoop

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At least Littlefield, in his allegory thesis on the "Wizard of Oz" explained the symbolism of the characters and locations in that novel.
In your Beale allegory, what does the buffalo hunt symbolize? The treasure vault? The iron box? The friendly Indians?
...and so on...

Symbolize? Did you read the link I posted that explained, "free people of color?" This is what I have been attempting to point out in some of my post without having to write a entire book, but basically free people of color didn't just represent blacks, per say, but also a wide variety of mixed races. The topic of slavery and emancipated slaves is an entirely different subject then the much broader free people of color issue. There were many highly educated free people of color during the era who moved about as easily as any white man due to their features and origins. So how does all of this possibly tie into the Beale papers?

Risque had slaves.
Thomas Beale had slaves.
Thomas Jefferson had slaves..
....just to quickly name a few.

Now because I can't say too much, but just as "example" let me point out that any one of these men were of the age that they could have fathered "the father of" Thomas J. Beale of Richmond, could they not? Now does this new theorist have proof of something along these lines? Well, I believe he does.
 

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Not me brother.
 

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Just to help out some people with the typical stereotypes...My brother, who is white, is married to an African-American. They have had four children together. Three of them have the undeniable characteristics of African-Americans, but one of them does not. He has straight, jet-black hair and a very dark complexion that gets even darker in the summer. In the 1800's, he could have easily have passed as a white man, just one with a very dark complexion. What Bigscoop is saying is certainly plausible.
 

Rebel - KGC

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Just to help out some people with the typical stereotypes...My brother, who is white, is married to an African-American. They have had four children together. Three of them have the undeniable characteristics of African-Americans, but one of them does not. He has straight, jet-black hair and a very dark complexion that gets even darker in the summer. In the 1800's, he could have easily have passed as a white man, just one with a very dark complexion. What Bigscoop is saying is certainly plausible.
WB, dt!
 

Rebel - KGC

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Wanted to go further with this... TJ's Monticello web-site has info on Sally's THREE sons fathered by TJ (Sally was his wife's 1/2 sister; fathered by the same father... and BEAUTIFUL!). The boys "passed" for "white", moved into "White Society", and fought for the YANKS... in the Confederate War; one was KIA, one served in an "all-white" Unit... the third one COMMANDED a "all-white" Unit; CHECK IT OUT!
 

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