Legend of the Stone Maps

[somehiker]

Not sure what you mean by separate pieces, but the attachment ring and ball at the bottom would have been added to the cross after it was shaped.
Looks a bit rough at the upper end of the "IHS" side, so may have started out as a casting, and plenty of filing/sanding marks visible on both surfaces.
I doubt any craftsman would leave such a piece covered in "hammer marks", even if one were used to further shape a rough casting.



Further....the symbolism used helps to identify a likely source as well..... (Cross of Lorraine) France.

 

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[deducer]

A question about the cross shown...

It looks to have been made with rolled sheet due to it's uniform thickness of the separate pieces, not hand hammered...

Would that have been the process in the 18th century, the time period the seller gives to this cross?

Screw has a tapered thread. That was not invented until 1842.

 

[markmar]

And again Lynda

Can you see the little heart in the middle of this image ? Is the heart that the CP map shows on the stone Cross map .

 

[somehiker]

View attachment 1397026 View attachment 1397027

Screw has a tapered thread. That was not invented until 1842.

Looks like a straight thread to me, but if it's a "standard" thread, eg 6-32, it's probably from the late 18oo's at the earliest.
Tapered threads are almost exclusively used for pipe and plugs, and wouldn't be suitable for this purpose....especially the size and with such soft material.
Keep in mind though, that thread cutting tools have been around for a long time. Jewelry/clock/watchmaking for instance.

 

[Roadhse2]

After looking at the additional pictures on the Ebay ad, the piece looked as tho it is sheet and soldered together to make the cross shape of both halves. The uniform sides thickness of the formed 'boxes' and the smooth inside of each top and bottom looks like rolled metal to me and not cast.

That process may have been available at that time, but I was under the impression it came about in a later time period, as well as soldering techniques to assemble.

Just curious, thanks for the replies....

 

[deducer]

Looks like a straight thread to me, but if it's a "standard" thread, eg 6-32, it's probably from the late 18oo's at the earliest.
Tapered threads are almost exclusively used for pipe and plugs, and wouldn't be suitable for this purpose....especially the size and with such soft material.
Keep in mind though, that thread cutting tools have been around for a long time. Jewelry/clock/watchmaking for instance.

You're right.. I should have looked closer. Think it was the shadow that threw me off, or I jumped to too hasty a conclusion. That green around the base of the knob at the bottom is oxidization, suggesting that this thing has been plated and is brass or copper based. This would date this latter 19th century. Thoughts?

 

[cw0909]

i was thinking late 1890s early 1910-20, not an expert so really dont know
what i do know from looking at the imgs, its not worth 1200.00, to me
maybe the paper is older?

http://i65.tinypic.com/2wmdulv.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/30uydd4.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/359gzfm.jpg

 

[cw0909]

anyone know what these symbols? are

 

[somehiker]

After looking at the additional pictures on the Ebay ad, the piece looked as tho it is sheet and soldered together to make the cross shape of both halves. The uniform sides thickness of the formed 'boxes' and the smooth inside of each top and bottom looks like rolled metal to me and not cast.

That process may have been available at that time, but I was under the impression it came about in a later time period, as well as soldering techniques to assemble.

Just curious, thanks for the replies....

Ahh....I see what you are getting at now



The cross is actually a "reliquary", used to store and protect a religious relic of some kind.....presumably the piece of parchment (a printed blessing perhaps ?).
As such, it hasn't been cast, but rather has been folded and soldered from thinner sheet material.
Gold, silver, copper etc. has been processed into thin sections for about as long as it's been valued for decorative purposes. Gold and silver foil and "leaf" being a product of many ancient cultures. Soldering has been around for just about as long.

The oxide present on the knob may be from either copper or zinc components of the alloys used to solder silver.....or even residue of the flux that was used in the process.

 

[sdcfia]

eBay auction 152140335765
View attachment 1396930
View attachment 1396931
Exact 2 photos posted on other site

"RARE CRUCIFIX" ha ha. Buyer beware - these types of "rare" items are all over Italy and Spain for a hundred bucks. Kinda the same as buying Mayan, Aztec, Toltec, et al "artifacts" in Mexico. Ebay - purveyor of fine collectables from around the world. Ha ha.

 

[somehiker]

"RARE CRUCIFIX" ha ha. Buyer beware - these types of "rare" items are all over Italy and Spain for a hundred bucks. Kinda the same as buying Mayan, Aztec, Toltec, et al "artifacts" in Mexico. Ebay - purveyor of fine collectables from around the world. Ha ha.

Unfortunately so true. Even reputable dealers are sometimes fooled by their suppliers.
Even.....http://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/27/b...ss-hunter-admits-sale-of-fake-gold-coins.html
Can't speak for this merchant.....but I wouldn't risk my own bankroll on anything like this from E-Bay.

 

[sdcfia]

Unfortunately so true. Even reputable dealers are sometimes fooled by their suppliers.
Can't speak for this merchant.....but I wouldn't risk my own bankroll on anything like this from E-Bay.

Most of the churches and cathedrals in Europe sell all kinds of religious stuff (rosaries, medals, crosses, statues, etc) in their gift shops. Most of it is well-done and the buyers are willing to pay a fair price, but there's always going to be folks on the street who take advantage of the unwary. I guess the bottom line in this saga is that Ryan is insinuating that the Tumlinson maps are in some way linked to the Catholic church, possibly the Jesuits.

 

[Old]

Interesting Marius.

I actually prefer the "little" heart's big brother........miles away. Notice the similarity of the "eyes" of the heart.

 

[somehiker]

One heart that I've been kinda partial to....not the last heart, but all the good ones were probably part of the package.
Like the way that well-worn trail crosses over it, and where that same trail ultimately ends in a very narrow cleft in a sheer cliff face as well.
I'll let you guys interpret for yourselves......

Older sat. view



Original photo (2011) from about 200 yds away....cropped



The arrow also points to something of special significance......recycled for another purpose in this case.

 

[somehiker]

And this one, though much smaller, is very old and on that trail as well.



And this one....



Got another down below...can ya see it ?

 

[somehiker]

Enough hearts out there to satisfy

Huitzilopochtli himself.
Or at least them who believed in him.



This scene looks like it came right off of the Codice Tolteca-Chichimeca.
And the cave and what's above it, from another old map or two.


​

 

[wrmickel1]

Somehiker

I've found things like these, One has 248 I thought maybe there old claim markers.

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

Did you check out the cave. And what's in it.

Wrmickel1

 

[somehiker]

Did you check out the cave. And what's in it.

Wrmickel1

What looks like a blocked-up opening.

"248".....could be a claim marker I suppose.

Can also see this from the cave....

View attachment 100_0883 perfil.bmp

 

[somehiker]

Research can yield very interesting tidbits at times, especially where other projects have made one aware of what can be found all along the trails of previous history.
Here is one example which begs the question....what was he thinking, when he uttered this insult ?

From a history of the Pima revolt of 1751....... (1751 is found near the bottom of the stone " title " cross)

https://www.nps.gov/tuma/learn/historyculture/ignacio-xavier-keller.htm
Ignacio Xavier Keller
Nuestra Señora del Pilar y Santiago de Cocóspera Cocóspera

By
Ginny Sphar

"In 1751, Luis Oacpicgigua, or “Luis of Saric,” a Pima, was joining the fall offensive against the Apaches, with the soldiers of the presidio of San Felipe. Their route took them through Guevavi, where Father Garrucho gave them 15 head of the mission’s cattle. However, at Suamca, Father Keller’s mission, their reception was less cordial. Luis arrived in the uniform of a Spanish officer and perhaps was overbearing. Father Keller may have suggested that since Luis was more familiar with native weapons, he would enjoy greater success with them."------ Heresay later claimed that he called Luis a Chichimec dog, whose proper attire was a coyote skin and a loin cloth-------" and whose proper pastime was chasing rabbits and rodents in the hills. Whatever was said, it offended Luis, who now quit the campaign and went home nursing black thoughts."

Was Keller familiar with the same codice and the presence of such a figure at the upper right corner of this page ?

View attachment 1397216
Or was it a common insult among the Pima, which Keller knew would humiliate Luis ?