Legend of the Stone Maps

[somehiker]

Fr. Keller it so happens, was the leader of the ill fated expedition of 1753, northward from the Gila/San Pedro area,which was attacked by the Apache.


http://uair.library.arizona.edu/system/files/usain/download/azu_bv3705_s38_m55_1936_w.pdf

From https://books.google.ca/books?id=Jg...ge&q=Keller's expedition to the moqui&f=false



By the description given, someplace very close to the Superstition Mountains.
At night, so probably at or near water.....Queen Creek ?
Is this when the stones were lost or buried......the 5 smaller Tumlinson "rocks" of course....
Or at least some of the items, religious or.....?, that were intended for the proposed mission amongst the Moqui.

Fr. Keller was not around for the Expulsion, and was reported to have died while visiting a sick Pima in the north.

"The seemingly indestructible Keller of Suamca, after enduring the hardships of service on the New Spain frontier for nearly three decades, died some time after mid-August of 1759. Ailing, he had hastened to the side of a Pima of the north who was in danger of dying without confession. In doing so, the zealous Padre, evidently aware that he himself was near death, forsook the comfort of spending his last moments in the company of Europeans. Instead, by this final act, Father Keller demonstrated one of the noblest justifications for spending one’s life as a missionary: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” "

As it says in the footnote above, Fr. Keller's notes and account of the expedition are lost.
Fr. Polzer would have liked to have had them as well......



Perhaps they remain with Keller......wherever it is that he now rests in peace.

 

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[deducer]

Research can yield very interesting tidbits at times, especially where other projects have made one aware of what can be found all along the trails of previous history.
Here is one example which begs the question....what was he thinking, when he uttered this insult ?

From a history of the Pima revolt of 1751....... (1751 is found near the bottom of the stone " title " cross)

https://www.nps.gov/tuma/learn/historyculture/ignacio-xavier-keller.htm
Ignacio Xavier Keller
Nuestra Señora del Pilar y Santiago de Cocóspera Cocóspera

By
Ginny Sphar

"In 1751, Luis Oacpicgigua, or “Luis of Saric,” a Pima, was joining the fall offensive against the Apaches, with the soldiers of the presidio of San Felipe. Their route took them through Guevavi, where Father Garrucho gave them 15 head of the mission’s cattle. However, at Suamca, Father Keller’s mission, their reception was less cordial. Luis arrived in the uniform of a Spanish officer and perhaps was overbearing. Father Keller may have suggested that since Luis was more familiar with native weapons, he would enjoy greater success with them."------ Heresay later claimed that he called Luis a Chichimec dog, whose proper attire was a coyote skin and a loin cloth-------" and whose proper pastime was chasing rabbits and rodents in the hills. Whatever was said, it offended Luis, who now quit the campaign and went home nursing black thoughts."

Was Keller familiar with the same codice and the presence of such a figure at the upper right corner of this page ?

View attachment 1397216
Or was it a common insult among the Pima, which Keller knew would humiliate Luis ?

I did find that "Chichimeca" insult interesting as well, and it turns out the Spanish coined that pejorative term, particularly Cortés who thought they were a lot less civilized than the Aztecs that he conquered. Consequently I think that term was part of the vernacular Keller picked up when he came over with the first large batch of European Jesuits, and became one of only four to serve the Pimera Alta (Stiger, Segesser, and Grazhoffer being the others).

Ginny Sphar did such a great job writing about those early Jesuits- it's hard to believe she was only a volunteer for the NPS. It's a regret she passed away before she could complete what she set out to do.

 

[Old]

Interesting reading Somehiker,

On a side note.......The word Monqui, local to the northern area of the Superstitions, has always intrigued me. Will some of you locals school me on how its pronounced. It is remarkably similar (or at least I believe it is) to a local word here, Monguy or mongai (or other various spellings). Which is also similar to a Columbian area, Monqui located outside Bogota.

 

[markmar]

Interesting Marius.

I actually prefer the "little" heart's big brother........miles away. Notice the similarity of the "eyes" of the heart.

Cool !

Now look at the shape of the ground below the heart . Looks like the triangle of cristals from the ebay cross .

 

[somehiker]

Interesting reading Somehiker,

On a side note.......The word Monqui, local to the northern area of the Superstitions, has always intrigued me. Will some of you locals school me on how its pronounced. It is remarkably similar (or at least I believe it is) to a local word here, Monguy or mongai (or other various spellings). Which is also similar to a Columbian area, Monqui located outside Bogota.

I'm not familiar with that word. At least to where it might be connected to the Northern Superstitions area.
Unless you are referring to where Kino placed the word "MOQUI" on his well known 1701 map.



or Pfeffercorn's 1794 map...



The placement of the name, and the actual location are some distance apart.

 

[somehiker]

I did find that "Chichimeca" insult interesting as well, and it turns out the Spanish coined that pejorative term, particularly Cortés who thought they were a lot less civilized than the Aztecs that he conquered. Consequently I think that term was part of the vernacular Keller picked up when he came over with the first large batch of European Jesuits, and became one of only four to serve the Pimera Alta (Stiger, Segesser, and Grazhoffer being the others).

Ginny Sphar did such a great job writing about those early Jesuits- it's hard to believe she was only a volunteer for the NPS. It's a regret she passed away before she could complete what she set out to do.

More on that here.....History of Mexico - The State of Guanajuato

"But there was a large group of people who inhabited Guanajuato long before Spanish businessmen arrived with their Náhuatl-speaking allies from the south of Mexico. When the strangers first entered this land, they made no effort to distinguish between the various cultures living in Guanajuato. Instead, they applied the term Chichimeca to these aboriginal peoples. Utilizing the Náhuatl terms for dog (chichi) and rope (mecatl), the Aztec Indians had regarded their northern neighbors - the Chichimecas - as being "of dog lineage." (The implication of the term rope was a reference to "following the dog," hence a descendant of the dog)."

 

[deducer]

The Moqui tribe in history

 

[somehiker]

Most of the churches and cathedrals in Europe sell all kinds of religious stuff (rosaries, medals, crosses, statues, etc) in their gift shops. Most of it is well-done and the buyers are willing to pay a fair price, but there's always going to be folks on the street who take advantage of the unwary. I guess the bottom line in this saga is that Ryan is insinuating that the Tumlinson maps are in some way linked to the Catholic church, possibly the Jesuits.

Hard to say.
That the Order and it's representatives, Jesuit historians presumably, are assisting Ryan's project will undoubtedly add another chapter to the history of these enigmatic artifacts.
As to why, or how this came about, I only have my own research-based interpretations to rely on and work with at this point in time.
But the revelations that they are now involved in this particular "treasure hunt", and the extent of their participation, will undoubtedly give us all something to talk about down the road.

 

[Old]

Thank you very much for the link to the Monqui Tribe history. Very interesting.

Wayne, the Monqui Tribe is mentioned in the references you posted. Appears Padre Kellar's destination was to the Monqui. Which would have been north and perhaps east of the Superstitions proper. I've seen this tribe and area mentioned several places in the early literature.

I'm horrible at sounding out words that I've not heard spoken. And; occasionally can butcher those that I have heard spoke.

Any idea of the sound of the word Monqui? Is it perhaps Mon-cue, or Mon-ki? The word I am familiar with in my area is Monguy, pronounced just as it looks Mon - guy or sometimes Mon-gi. I'm interested if Monqui has a similar sound base.

Monguy is an interesting word from the Algonquin language, exclusive to the Chickahominy Tribe. The Chickahominy had a friendly but independent nature similar to what I'm seeing written concerning the Monqui tribe.

Monguy is a plural term and is the name of the ruling group of chiefs, which were the elders and spiritual leaders. These chiefs were a bloodline dynasty which included men and women, different from the War Chief which was an earned title. I am interested if this tribe has any possibility of a connection via the name.

 

[somehiker]

Sounds like we are on different tracks, Linda, since the tribal area/people mentioned in all three accounts of Keller's entrada that I provided earlier is spelled " Moqui ", rather than "monqui".
As it is on the maps as well.
They are now called the " Hopi ".
Keller himself however, may have spelled it differently in his own notes.

 

[sdcfia]

Yes, quite interesting people. Very similar language, appearance, legends, prophecies and customs to the Tibetans.

 

[cw0909]

old at the bottom of the link that deducer posted, are links for the
history of the moqui 1780-1890, from the 1865-1890 history link
says: Moqui pronounced Mokee
good read @ all links interesting & informative
deducer link
https://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/the-moqui-tribe-in-history.htm

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.760784)]In 1872 J. H. Beadle an experienced
traveler and author who spent much time with the Indians gave the names of
the 7 Moqui towns as follows: Moqui pronounced Mokee; Moquina pronounced
Mokeenah; Tequa pronounced Taywah; Hualpec pronounced Wallpake;
Shepalawa pronounced Shapalawah; Oraybe pronounced
Orybay;Beowawe pronounced Baowahay.[/COLOR]

https://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/the-moqui-tribe-in-history-1865-1890.htm

 

[somehiker]

Yes, quite interesting people. Very similar language, appearance, legends, prophecies and customs to the Tibetans.

View attachment 1397815

SUN Nation - Hopi, People of Peace

In connection with the the Hopi Stones and Prophecies, I've mentioned some of this in previous posts...
In wondering as to a possible link between the smaller stones that are now claimed to have actually been found by Tumlinson, rather than the larger stone maps, and the four Hopi prophecy stones.

 

[sdcfia]

SUN Nation - Hopi, People of Peace

In connection with the the Hopi Stones and Prophecies, I've mentioned some of this in previous posts...
In wondering as to a possible link between the smaller stones that are now claimed to have actually been found by Tumlinson, rather than the larger stone maps, and the four Hopi prophecy stones.

That's a pretty good website. I suspect all that we know about and from the Hopi, as intriguing as it is, is incomplete and likely to remain so.

Linking Tumlinson to the Hopi would require some serious backup, IMO. Well, at least nobody has identified Travis as Pahana ... yet.

 

[somehiker]

That's a pretty good website. I suspect all that we know about and from the Hopi, as intriguing as it is, is incomplete and likely to remain so.

Linking Tumlinson to the Hopi would require some serious backup, IMO. Well, at least nobody has identified Travis as Pahana ... yet.

I'll leave it up to RG, to establish the history of Travis' "rocks". And no, Travis wouldn't have been the "Pahana". Nor could he be, despite some very bold claims made recently, "the most successful treasure hunter the Superstition Mountains has ever known...". Got a feeling .....
What I'm really interested in, is the symbology and type of rock or alternative rock-like material used, as well as any similarities between "the rocks" and the other small stone "maps" found awhile back, also in the QC area. Those "stones" were what initially piqued my own interest in the Hopi stones. Just have to wait and see, I guess.

 

[cw0909]

unless someone made copies,they say the stones are kept at.......
"And so a long time passed, and the Great Spirit gave each of the four races stone tablets.
Ours are kept at the Hopi Reservation in Arizona at Four Corners Area on the Third Mesa." -- Lee Brown
SUN Nation - Hopi, People of Peace

 

[cw0909]

i read the Hopi site posted by somehiker, and started looking around
for what i could find, about the mission the Coyote clan tore down,
after the Catholic priests were thrown out back in the 1600s.
ive found nothing yet, but searching, the priests & friars have been
hiding stuff they thought important for a long time.

Fra.Bernardino de Sahugun and other Spanish priests had preserved
numerous original Aztec documents by devising a way to write the
Nahuatal language of the Aztecs in the Latin alphabet. This enabled
eyewitnesses to the Conquest to record an Aztec account of the entire invasion.
The Aztecs speak - an Aztec account of the Conquest of Mexico : Mexico History

 

[cactusjumper]

i read the Hopi site posted by somehiker, and started looking around
for what i could find, about the mission the Coyote clan tore down,
after the Catholic priests were thrown out back in the 1600s.
ive found nothing yet, but searching, the priests & friars have been
hiding stuff they thought important for a long time.

cw,

For an excellent Aztec account of the conquest, I would highly recommend "The Broken Spears" by Miguel Leon-Portilla. The sources for the book are original Aztec accounts that survived the conquest. From and Aztec Elegy, we read this: "Nothing but flowers and songs of sorrow are left in Mexico and Tlatelolco, where once we saw warriors and wise men."

It is an unbelievable bit of history.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cw0909]

cactusjumper
thanks i was going to look for that today see links below,it was mentioned
in the link i posted that Dr.Angel Maria Garibay K studies of the docs
were published in The Broken Spears

The Broken Spears 1992 edtion
scroll to bottom of pg, all but 4 ch. can be read
https://books.google.com/books/about/The Broken Spears.html?id=5OF8htt4erIC

i ordered the 2006 edition today from our library network, should be at my
local library mon.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Broken_Spears.html?id=Pv0U-OoKIl4C

 

[cw0909]

wondering how much of the wealth spoken about, is still hidden in the
jungles of mexico and the deserts, by bandits and or church


The economy of New Spain: Mexico's Colonial era
The economy of New Spain: Mexico's Colonial era : Mexico History