My First Live Hotchkiss Artillery Shell

[genlee]

I can check this relic off my bucket list now. This is a Hotchkiss 2 1/2" diameter shell

Tony, Gerry and myself were at a new site on Saturday. Well it is not a new site as in never been hunter, but new for us. I had gone out a few weekends ago to scout it out and found several fired bullets, four to be exact and all I did was walk in a straight line, for one hour.

Ok so back to yesterday, we got to the field around 7:45 am, and got busy.

About any hour into the hunt we all had a few relics, but nothing to right home about. So I head to the top of a ridge, that looked trashy and it was, but nothing to bad, just a lot of digging.

So my Fisher screams at me with a 78 solid signal but it was a high Iron reading, And it was 14+ inches so I figure it has to be something old. And it was right under a large root. After about 30 minutes of digging, probing and digging and probing I start to see the base of the shell. Now I was not sure what it was, as I have dug axles before, so out of the ground this bad boy popped.

I have to say I was a bit intimidated holding an unexploded shell in my hands, so I ran down the hill figuring if I was going to go it was going to be a skip in my step and amile on my face.

So this is my best for the year.

 

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[Msbeepbeep]

Just do the happy dance, from a distance! Congrats, and be safe!

 

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[WHADIFIND]

Excellent historical piece. BUT, be careful! Wouldn't want you to be listed as a casualty of the Civil War, especially right before Christmas!

Be careful!!!





--------- Boom ----- baby!

 

[ynpto804]

It's funny all of the comments about hurting yourself. Civil war ordinance is very stable as long as it's sealed. I know of many people who still have live shells. You would be hard pressed to find a recent account of some having a shell just burst in the hand who wasn't disarming it. I wish CBG would chime in. Again nice find.

 

[smokeythecat]

I read two articles on CNN, Fox in the past three years about "expert" Civil War guys trying to deactivate shells, one just blew up the kitchen, the other died. Probably could find the article if I had to.

 

[Beeps in my sleep]

It's funny all of the comments about hurting yourself. Civil war ordinance is very stable as long as it's sealed. I know of many people who still have live shells. You would be hard pressed to find a recent account of some having a shell just burst in the hand who wasn't disarming it. I wish CBG would chime in. Again nice find.

He will. Give him time. He is drawn like a magnet to posts involving anything artillery. He will be by shortly I am sure. I don't know how I would feel having a live shell like that around me. I have seen the final destination movies and 1000 ways to die episodes way to many times. I can see way to die 901 "HOTch KISSED"

 

[markp]

nice find

 

[TreasurDiggrNY]

http://48thpennsylvania.blogspot.com/2008/06/live-civil-war-artillery-shell-in.html?m=1

The link above says the bomb squad was called in on this live Hotchkiss, further states that while it probably wouldn't go off if dropped a spark WOULD set it off. With my luck I would drop it on a flint rock BOOM!

 

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

WOW what an amazing piece of history!
Several questions...
is there a known battle this is this related to?
Does any museum or agency have prior claim to it as an artifact or is it yours free and clear?
Can you invest the resources to disarm it and are you then able to sell it?
Great find and best wishes.

 

[Follows Camp Craig]

Almost 50 years after the American civil war, WWI shells still pose a threat to European farmers to this day.
Makes you stop and think for a moment or two.

Naw, scoop it up and shuck it!

 

[genlee]

That shell is as alive as it can be. Found it 14+ inches under a root. The Civil War had many high tech ways of killing people. Exploding bullets, land mines and hand grenades just to mention a few. War brings out the best in people when it comes to inventing new ways of killing some one.

Sorry for the rant.


John

 

[genlee]

I will say this the shell is from a battle, and the land is private property. Soon to be developed if the land sells which I hope not for at least another year or two. Yes the shell makes me nervous very much, but like my EOD instructor said to us in training " An unexploded bomb is your friend!! It is when it blows up that it is not" I have a tremendous amount of respect for this shell, which is why i joked about it in the beginning. I treated it with all the care of a new born baby. Got it home and immediately put it in water. Not that I did that with my sons LOL

No museum will ever own this shell, mostly because it will be packed away as this is a common Artillery piece.

I have cleaned on it just to see if I could see any markings on the shell, or fuse none so far.

Ultimately I am going to get it disarmed, by a pro so having said that. I am very excited about this shell as I know which Battery fired it and pretty much from which direction it came from, based on where I found it, logistically speaking. We also found multiple frags as well, most likely Hotchkiss shells as well.

More to come on that field

John

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Genlee (the civil war Hotchkiss artillery shell's finder) wrote:
> That shell is as alive as it can be.

Since a couple of guys in this discussion have posted that they want my input, here it is.

That civil war Hotchkiss shell (which is the Percussion-fuzed version) is definitely NOT "alive as it can be." The Mercury Fulminate primer in its brass Hotchkiss-patented impact-detonation fuze went bad more than a century ago.

The absolute proof of that statement-of-fact:
At the end of the civil war, the US Army had literally multi-millions of leftover unissued musket/rifle percussion caps, whose primer was Mercury Fulminate. They were put into "dry storage" at various Arsenals. Several years later, they got issued to troops when the Indian Wars cranked up. But a serious problem was revealed. Most of them were "duds" -- which is indeed a serious problem when you're in combat. So, the Ordnance Department conducted scientific testing to discover the "use-by date" of the percussion caps... and in 1880, filed an official report of the results. About a century later, when US Army Ordnance Colonel John Biemeck (who is the author of a recent book on Historical artillery Blackpowder projectiles and their fuzes, and a longtime personal friend of mine) was doing research in the Pentagon Library, he found a copy of that official Ordnance Department report from 1880. It said the Mercury Fulminate in the percussion caps degraded to uselessness in five to fifteen years. As some of you readers may know, you can still buy Original (1860s) unissued packets of civil war percussion caps. So Colonel Biemeck bought a batch of them, and tested their "activeness" with a hammer, and a blowtorch. He got no reaction AT ALL from any of them -- which confirmed the 1880 report. Genlee, the primer in your Hotchkiss shell's percussion fuze is a Mercury Fulminate percussion cap. So, your civil war Hotchkiss shell now is simply an iron container filled with Blackpowder. It is actually less dangerous than the tin-cans of Blackpowder we civil war battle reenactors have in our homes -- because a kid can't find it and open it up.

Furthermore, unlike shells from the 1880s and afterward, your EXCAVATED artillery shell from the CVIL WAR ERA will not explode just from being dropped -- nor even, from being hammered-on.

The proof of that statement-of-fact:
We relic-hunters have dug over 100,000 artillery shells which were manufactured from the Revolutionary War through the Civil War. My extensive research has not found even ONE report of any of those 100,000-plus pre-1880s artillery shells exploding from being hit by the shovel during the digging-up process. It's true that 1880s-and-later ones can still be "shock sensitive"... but excavated pre-1880s ones clearly are NOT shock-sensitive. The 100,000-plus that we've dug without blowing ourselves up are undeniable proof of that.

Yes, a very-few (less than 20) pre-1880s ones have exploded... but in EVERY case when that happened, somebody was either using a power-tool on it or had put in a hot fire or an oven. If you can avoid doing those extremely provocative things to a pre-1880s one, the only way it can hurt you is if you drop it on your foot.

The problem is that most people (including most Police and Military personnel) are unable to tell the difference between a comparatively harmless pre-1880s artillery shell and a dangerous "modern era" one. So, unless you are fully 100%-CERTAIN that a shell is pre-1880s, I recommend you treat as a dangerous one.

I must also correct the information at the link posted by TreasureDiggrNY in reply #27 (above). It is false that a spark from simply handling or dropping (or even hammering) can detonate an excavated pre-1880s artillery shell. I've personally run electricity through several hundred "non-deactivated" civil war artillery shells during the Electrolysis process... and so have many other people. Obviously, there has not been even a single explosion from doing that.

Pardon me please, but I must also correct what Smokeythecat's WW2 Army Engineers dad told him, saying Blackpowder will degrade into Nitroglycerine. Blackpowder was the only artillery projectile explosive charge used in the civil war and earlier. (Some experiments were done with"Guncotton," but it was found to be too unstable and thus didn't get used in artillery shells or grenades.) Blackpowder consists of only three ingredients:
1- finely-ground charcoal
2- sulfur
3- Potassium Nitrate (a.k.a. Saltpeter)

Therefore, it is chemically IMPOSSIBLE for Blackpowder to become Nitroglycerine... because the necessary ingredients for forming Nitroglycerine are not present in it. Blackpowder absolutely will NOT "degrade into Nitroglycerine." Smokeythecat, your dad was confusing Blackpowder with Dynamite... which does contain Nitroglycerine. When dynamite gets too old, or is stored improperly, it can "sweat" nitroglycerin and thereby become extremely dangerous to handle.

In closing, let me point out that throughout this post, I have been careful to specify that I'm talking about EXCAVATED pre-1880s artillery projectiles. What I've said in this post might not apply to one still in pristine non-excavated condition because it was kept in great-grandpa's attic ever since he picked it up hot-&-smoking at the battle at Gettysburg.

Also in closing, I'm going to re-emphasize, if you are not absolutely 100%-CERTAIN that the artillery shell was made before the 1880s, you should be cautious about it. If you are unsure, post several CLOSEUP digital photos of it in TreasureNet's "What-Is-It?" forum and I'll identify it for you. Perhaps I should mention, I am a US Government-recognized Professional Expert on pre-1880s artillery projectiles. I've written books and numerous magazine articles about them. Also, I've "inerted" civil war artillery shells for the National Park Service. Also, the Richmond VA vicinity city and county Police Bomb Squads consult me when they come across an artillery projectile they're not sure about. Because of that, I've managed to save several excavated civil war shells (which are in actual fact historical archeological artifacts) from being needlessly destroyed.

 

[housemom6]

Wow whether it's dangerous or a dud I still would have pooped a brick seeing that one. I've said it before, it's freaking amazing what it's just lying around or buried a few inches away under our feet. Great find

 

[pepperj]

Congrats on the shell and on your persistence in digging up the find in the first place, lots of folks would of stopped at the root and just not bothered with looking further. Great write up on what the danger of the shell actually is CBG, your knowledge is first rate in this field.

 

[ynpto804]

Thank you CBG!!!

 

[Limitool]

Almost 50 years after the American civil war, WWI shells still pose a threat to European farmers to this day.
Makes you stop and think for a moment or two.

Naw, scoop it up and shuck it!

Damn... I wish you hadn't mentioned the WW1 shell comment above... I'm sitting here with 2 of them on my desk top replying to your comment. I hope I don't make the news.

 

[Follows Camp Craig]

Damn... I wish you hadn't mentioned the WW1 shell comment above... I'm sitting here with 2 of them on my desk top replying to your comment. I hope I don't make the news.

Ha ha, and if I remember drooling over those images correctly. your Babies are equipped with Proximity fuses and HAVE been fired.
I would love to be able to take a shot at it with 80 curies of Iridium 192 Just to get a glimpse inside.


I recall a family ranch along the California coast near Pt. Conception that was shelled by a Japanese sub during WWII.
The two shells served as mantle pieces for years before being properly decommissioned.
Had they been 4 feet lower and serving as andirons the results would have been disastrous.

Still, I am haunted by the term "Fulminate of mercury"

I had a 1909 Argentine Mauser whose ammo was plagued with hang fire or misfires due to the old ammo
Then in the early 1990s a senator by the last name of Feinstein tried to establish a short shelf life
for a particular product containing fulminate of mercury in my state.

Thankfully Fulminate of mercury is now allowed to live out its natural life, but in some states it is outlawed
or limited to exactly how many of its family members can hang out in a straight or staggered line.

 

[smokeythecat]

I found the article I wanted, showing where an expert got killed defusing a Civil War shell. And I thought my cat got my last remaining memory cell.

Virginia Man Killed In Civil War Cannonball Blast | Fox News

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Sam was a longtime friend. He lived in the same county I do. I'm named and quoted in the Fox News article you linked to. The local police consulted me for the after-accident forensics investigation. My analysis of the fragments proved it was a 9-inch caliber US Navy roundshell (weighing 74 to 75 pounds, including a 3-pound Blackpowder bursting-charge) with the navy's special WATERPROOF fuze. Sam was using a power-tool on it. As I said in my previous reply, "extreme" provocation (such as a power-tool or a very hot fire or oven) is required to cause an EXCAVATED pre-1880s shell to explode. Dropping it won't do that, and hitting it with a shovel won't do that... otherwise, we relic-hunters could not have excavated over 100,000 pre-1880s artillery shells with not even a single explosion from doing so.

 

[genlee]

And that, is the rest of the story LOL CanonBallGuy that was very informative and as I suspected, as I have been talking to some folks around here, and they basically told the same thing. And for that I am very thankful.

I do plan to return to the fields, as I am sure there is more there. My guess is due to the hot rocks most get discouraged and move on, myself and my buddies hunt like hyenas on a zebra.


John