need help about finding some law about gates on mining claim roadsok so im coming to

[danec71]

need help about finding some law about gates on mining claim road

ok so im coming to the status conference portion of my civil case against another claim owner that has been locking me out of my claims with a gate across our road that accesses both our mining claims.i have pretty much what i need as far as laws.what im looking for is some kind of forestt service regulation or rcw of any sort that might talk about gates on forewst service property.who can install or cant.who controls them or not.anything that may mention about if the gate was authorized in the past to be installed by a certain person and and now that company is gone who now owns the gate.just anything that talks about who can put one in.who controls it.what does that mean for everyone elses access.i know this gate was installed by a small mining company about 40 years ago or so.probably authorized by usfs but they have been gone for a long time and now it just exists there for ever.any kind of links may help.thanks

 

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[et1955]

Here in Washington State there are many gates blocking access to areas and mining claims, up in the Sultan area you have Everett Water shed, SPUD, Timber companies and USFS controlling these gates. If the USFS has land on the other side of the gate despite the other property owners and if I own a claim back there the USFS will provide a key for me. You may have to pay a deposit for the key. Good Luck

 

[Bejay]

You might try this and give these to your Sheriff:

LEO SHEEP COMPANY v.UNITED STATES of America (Wyoming Case)

43 USC § 1061 (Federal Law)

BUFORD v. HOUTZ (Supreme Court)

CAMFIELD v. UNITED STATES (Supreme Court)

This should be all the enforcement power a sheriff needs to open the gate.

It's well established law that public lands have public access. If your Sheriff won't open them utilizing these then you should be able to get a court order to open them.

Bejay

 

[kcm]

I can't remember all of what was posted before, but I'm assuming you have confirmed that the gate was not installed and is not controlled by the USFS. If it was installed by them, or if they have taken over control of the access, then your case is aimed in the wrong direction. Seems I vaguely remember (BOY, does that get me into trouble!!) that you stated before that this was definitely not a USFS gate, and was installed by the other claim owner. If that is the case, then you have an open-and-shut case, as he has zero authority to deny access to your claim. So if this is a private gate, then make certain in your court case that you have unrestricted access to your claim. And if this guy is as ornery as you've made him out to be, then it would be advisable to also get a dashcam and keep it running all the time, from the time you go out to the claim until you get back home (or wherever). Many dashcams can easily record over 8 continuous hours in high definition. If the guy tries to come back later and say that you did this or that, #1 is he has to have proof. #2 is, if you have well-documented actions of your time on and/or through his claim, that obviously wouldn't be absolute proof that you did no wrong as files can be deleted. But, it would show that you're trying to cover your butt after having tried to work "with" him on a gate/access solution.

This is NOT legal advice - just my opinion.

 

[et1955]

Please clarify, have you talked to the claim owner with the gate, is his claim patented, have you talked to the USFS about the gate.

 

[winners58]

this started in June? http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/general-discussion/506745-forest-service-gate-question.html
and still had the problem in Aug. (diff. thread) http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/general-discussion/512086-forest-service-gate-question.html

you'll have to work it out with the the other claim owner or take a FS LEO with you to lay down the law
with every one present and in agreement, Have a beer or smoke with him and work something out.

Gates everywhere in Washington the usually way is to have a "contractional agreement" with
an agency or others with the stipulation its for travel to and from the claim only.
I know the Washington prospectors have many claims behind gates and have an access form.
http://www.washingtonprospectors.org/images/forms/key_checkout_acknowledgment.pdf

 

[danec71]

Yes this case has been going for five months now. I'm just entering that phase where trial be started. I have pretty much everything I need about access onto unpatented mining claims which all of our claims are unpatented. I don't believe this gate was put in by the US FS. I'm almost positive it was installed by a small company that was up there are 30 or 40 years ago and probably approved by the forest service more than likely. But those days are long gone and of course the gate is going to stay forest service loves gates. The only road that accesses up into the small Gulch runs through his mining claim at the start and that's where the gate is on the only road. As far as I'm concerned and the Mining lawyer I talk to you that doesn't give him the right to control access and everything behind it. In fact it's obviously it doesn't.it belongs to all claim owners which unfortunately is only us 2.The guy tells me all the time his claims are private and I cannot trust pass. I'm not really concerned about losing this case. I'm just looking for any written laws statutes or RCW's of any kind it says anything about having permission installing gates anything about controlling gates whether not they were installed by the forest service or not. I suppose I could pay the lawyer but I've already paid him enough and this is my only other issue I didn't talk to him about. Anyway I've been looking and looking and I can't find anything about gates. I know what he's doing is wrong and I could just pull the gate down and I have went to the four service who have cut the lock off and put there's on about five or six times. Of course this last time when I went to go through in the lock was changed again I just said screw it and decide to go the legal route. We all know that The four service is probably just sitting back and having a big laugh about this they don't care that people can't get in that's the way they want it. So anything you guys might have would be great otherwise I guess I'll have to pay another 300 bucks an hour for this guy to research this.thanks

 

[Hoser John]

Does the road lead to any private patented property or just FS lands with none. I just utilized, 18 months ago, this avenue to keep a gate AND a insane tank trap off my access road. Your rights of egress and regress were even further codified under the Nixon administration..RS 277 IF memory serves me right?? I have public comment on the attempted closures of the early 2000s , will look for you but I'm in California and there is NO HOMOGENEOUS APPLICATION OF LAW within the Forest Circus state to state anymore sic sic sic-John

 

[Kenmitch]

What happened between the 2 of you guys that led to this predicament your in? Seems like something isn't being said. Did he accuse you of poaching his gold? Boundary dispute? Locking your access to the claims seems extreme under friendly circumstances. I'd assume under normal circumstances he'd just give you a key and a friendly reminder about the boundaries of the claims.

 

[Golden_Crab]

What happened between the 2 of you guys that led to this predicament your in? Seems like something isn't being said. Did he accuse you of poaching his gold? Boundary dispute? Locking your access to the claims seems extreme under friendly circumstances. I'd assume under normal circumstances he'd just give you a key and a friendly reminder about the boundaries of the claims.

I was thinking the same thing, although they dont have to like each other... the guy with the gate on his claim has zero right to put a lock on the gate. He has claim to the minerals, not the surface, and his actions are clearly interfering with your mining activities and others would be miners. Not a chance he's going to win unless theres something we don't know about..

 

[kcm]

OK, here's the question I have to ask. You say that you "believe" the gate was installed by a small company some 30 to 40 years ago. It also sounds like this company is no longer around. So in essence, this is now a USFS gate, and they should have full control and say over its use. ...I'm only using Common Sense here, and unfortunately many laws are not based on Common Sense. However, I'm wondering how much discussion you've had with FS about the gate and what they have said. ...Seems like I remember (ah, there I go again! ) you mentioning in another thread that they (USFS) said you'd have to work things out with the other claim owner. As that has not panned out, have you tried going back to the FS and asking them to intervene on your behalf?

 

[danec71]

OK I'll answer the questions but I was just trying to get some information about gates if it existed in the four service manuals. But this is been going on for few years now this year be in the worst of all. It's just not me he runs everybody out there hikers hunters campers it doesn't matter. But it started with me after he had some of his tunnels cleaned out Addie found some pretty good stuff and kick those people out of there. But not before he had another tunnel cleaned out on one of my Mining claims that turned out to be pretty good and that's when he started forcing me out and try to tell me that that was on his mining claim. He knows it's not right but it's the game he wants to play. But overall he just wants everybody out of there . And yes I have had discussions with the four service they've cut locks off for me five or six times. I just had another discussion with the Ranger telling him that he was going to be next in line for a lawsuit because he's not doing his job. I let him know I do all the regulations I have there for service manuals and everything. His excuses they have too much going on with forest fires and then now there's snow on the ground they can't do anything and It will be a multi year process . So I told him welcome to being a forest service Ranger it's your job to manage all this. So in the meantime I will just get an injunction against this guy to stop doing what he's doing and I guess we'll see what the forest service does after that. At least I'll be able to get in and out. And I told the Ranger that he would be next in line if nobody wanted to step up that he could be sued individually From the forest service itself as a forest service employee. He didn't like that too much

 

[et1955]

Have you talked to your local Sheriff about this, if this is not private land he cannot run anybody off his claim unless they are interfering with his mining. You said the FS have cut the locks off the gate 5 to 6 times which means the locks are not FS property. One answer might be that FS installs there own lock on the gate and then give you and others that have claims in the area a key. If all else fails bolt cutters.

 

[danec71]

Forest service lock is suppose to be on there .forest service knows what is going on but dragging there feet.says they have finally drafted a letter to send to him after 3 years of trouble.this why I filed the lawsuit.once I get an injunction on him to stop all this then we will see what the forest service has.he is about to make his life very difficult because if he doesn't follow court orders he will end up in jail.

 

[winners58]

does the other miner have a Plan of Operations, can you compel the FS under RS2477 or the mining laws
https://www.fs.fed.us/dirindexhome/fsm/2700/2730.doc
the gate could have been put in under a previous PoO and no longer applies to the current claim holder.
might be cheaper and faster to just file a plan of operations that includes a right-a way to your claim.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Well you also have the laws laid down by the Federal Public Lands Management Act (FPLMA) to draw on in your fight. In a nutshell, these state that all of the public shall have equal access to public lands. If he has been throwing hikers, hunters etc out of the area he's in the wrong right there. These laws were put into place to prevent exactly this kind of action by individuals. We as miners have to share the surface rights to public lands and a claim is only for protecting the subsurface mineral rights. By tossing hikers, hunters, equestrians, fishermen etc out he's broken Federal Laws already.

There are some people out there that want to keep others off their claims for what ever reason but they are not allowed to boot everyone. If they're so worried about mineral trespass they need to install trail cams or something to keep an eye on things when they're not there. Locking everyone out goes against the laws. I've never had any problem with letting others have access to areas I'm working as long as they're not attempting to prospect or mine. One area I was testing (staked, monument in place but not filed on so far) had a portion of the Arizona Trail running right through it. Met many a hiker, off roader and riders while working the area and enjoyed the company. They would usually stop and ask what was going on, which gave me a chance to explain how Placer mining worked.

 

[Bejay]

Just for clarification: There are a number of justifiable reasons to either post "no trespassing" and or "gates". When we speak of mining, (note! this encompasses all miners), one MUST consider the actual mining operation that is taking place. A claimant who incorporates the use of machinery/large equipment has a liability duty to post and enforce that signage or obstacle). One must consider the mining methods!

Bejay

 

[goldenIrishman]

Good point Bejay. A miner using heavy equipment has a right to protect said equipment from theft or vandalism. None of us but the OP have all the details so to be honest we're all guessing in the dark.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Good point Bejay. A miner using heavy equipment has a right to protect said equipment from theft or vandalism. None of us but the OP have all the details so to be honest we're all guessing in the dark.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

Sounds like the gate has been locked for 30 years. Have you enjoyed access to your claims during this period, or have you recently acquired the claims and want to use this restricted access now?

"He keeps locking me out"...leads me to believe you are cutting a lock?

 

[danec71]

I've had these claims since 2004. When I first started using the gate and had to for service locks and a private lock. I had a key to that number 10 lock for the forest service. Then eventually through the years it went down to one for service lock and one private lock and then over the last three years The four service lock kept getting cut off and replace with just a private lock then I'd have to go down had the four service cut it off put their lock back on everything a be fine for a while and that locket be gone somebody's private lock on there and eventually it's now to the point to where he has pretty much fortified his own lock on there and I went to the four service and since they are dragging their ass I decided just to go the legal route. I'm sure I could cut right through this lock with some kind a torch and get my access in there but this point I'm not going to cause any problems I'd rather see him for Ryan Court. I just received my trial date two days ago unfortunately have to wait till August maybe in the meantime I should consider some things like calling the sheriff and enforcing the mineral trust pass law. Or just cut my way through. But at this point I don't know if it's worth causing any trouble since trial date is coming.