Vikingblood
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Point identification needed
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Vikingblood
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Sorry. I should have added that it was found in seaside beach NJ about fifty years ago.
Charl
Silver Member
Looks like the water erased any trace of flaking altogether. It will be tough to ID it. Some might even say it's not a point at all. But I am used to hunting areas where the points do suffer from being in an active tidal zone, so I can see that as a possible water worn projectile, but not everyone will likely agree.
Charl
Silver Member
If found in southern New England, not that far from NJ, it would classify as a version of Wading River, Late Archaic to Middle Woodland. A very generic stemmed point with 9 different stem forms, including the form seen in your's. But not sure how far outside New England the range extends. Found on Long Island for sure.....
Wading River
http://www.projectilepoints.net/Points/Wading_River.html
Wading River
http://www.projectilepoints.net/Points/Wading_River.html
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Vikingblood
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Thanks. That was very well normative. [emoji4]
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Vikingblood
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NCPeaches
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Is it black or is that stain? It sure is pretty and looks thick like some of the quartz points I find around here.
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Vikingblood
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I think it's black, not stained. kinda has the weight and feel of obsidian. Note: I really know nothing about this stuff.
quito
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You really think it's a point?
How thick is it?
How thick is it?
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Vikingblood
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Idk if it's a point. That's why I posted it. It might be three quarters thick.
Hot diggity
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Hate to be the bummer here, but I see nothing to suggest human contact. No flaking ever. Natural stone. Just from the 1 pic I see..
Charl
Silver Member
The problem is there are what I call "erased points". It's not a technical term at all. It's points that the water has simply erased every trace of flaking, leaving only the form. I find them all the time here on Narragansett Bay. Will try to photograph an example when I get a chance. Well, here is a decent example. New England argillite(argillaceous slate)
Water can easily erase the flaking. Same with quartz. But this is a decent example of a point with the work being worn away. I don't know the material for the piece in this thread, but NJ won't have obsidian to the best of my knowledge.
My point is, once you know your materials, and are hunting heavy surf tidal zones, you will find points that look like the one in this thread. But, as noted earlier, not everyone will agree. I also am not familiar with the material, or where it was found. It just reminds me of how water weathered points can be sometimes.....
Busy here, but if I can pick out some even better examples, I will post them. Look esp. at the second photo here. There was minimal flaking on that side to begin with, of course.....
Water can easily erase the flaking. Same with quartz. But this is a decent example of a point with the work being worn away. I don't know the material for the piece in this thread, but NJ won't have obsidian to the best of my knowledge.
My point is, once you know your materials, and are hunting heavy surf tidal zones, you will find points that look like the one in this thread. But, as noted earlier, not everyone will agree. I also am not familiar with the material, or where it was found. It just reminds me of how water weathered points can be sometimes.....
Busy here, but if I can pick out some even better examples, I will post them. Look esp. at the second photo here. There was minimal flaking on that side to begin with, of course.....
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quito
Silver Member
That's what I thought, it looks pretty thick. It is not a point. I don't know why so many people here are so quick with compliments, or eager to call some things an artifact when they clearly are not.
Charl
Silver Member
OK, here's what can happen to quartzite after ages in a tidal zone. Both what I would call "erased points" from a site on our bay. The point on the right is a Brewerton Eared Triangle!!
View attachment 1209510
Is the point in this thread a water erased point? Well, I can't be sure because I don't know the materials or styles to expect where it was found. But, in my own experience, yes, it is possible. Quartz and argillaceous slate will water wear completely smooth over time. Quartzite will usually retain a grainy appearance, but flaking can be erased......
quito, to, you may be 100% correct, but if you are used to finding water worn points! complete erasure of the flaking in certain lithics does in fact happen. Just look at my examples. Recognized by the material and form, and found at sites where less weathered examples of the same styles have also been found. I have quartz examples, if I can find them, that will look like that black piece, only white, but all flaking gone, and only the shape or form betraying what it is, a point......
Is the point in this thread a water erased point? Well, I can't be sure because I don't know the materials or styles to expect where it was found. But, in my own experience, yes, it is possible. Quartz and argillaceous slate will water wear completely smooth over time. Quartzite will usually retain a grainy appearance, but flaking can be erased......
quito, to, you may be 100% correct, but if you are used to finding water worn points! complete erasure of the flaking in certain lithics does in fact happen. Just look at my examples. Recognized by the material and form, and found at sites where less weathered examples of the same styles have also been found. I have quartz examples, if I can find them, that will look like that black piece, only white, but all flaking gone, and only the shape or form betraying what it is, a point......
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Hot diggity
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Totally possible Charl (& I like your finds) but that stufff just can't be proven. It's useless to even think about...
Charl
Silver Member
OK, may be my best example of an "erased point" I think demonstrating there is no reason the piece that started this thread could not be a point. I don't know the material here, but it's a 7000-8000 year old Stark point from Ma. Flaking gone! This was flaked, not ground into shape, and the flaking is gone.....
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Charl
Silver Member
Well, it is totally possible to know for certain when they are coming off known sites with known types. If you hunt heavy tidal zones, you do learn to recognize such things. This last example was likely the best I'll come up with today. I do disagree. You can know when they are points, but you really have to know your sites really well. As an isolated find, it will likely be much more difficult.
Charl
Silver Member
Hopefully, the example will show.....
Oh, OK, it did show up, two posts earlier. Perfect example.....
Oh, OK, it did show up, two posts earlier. Perfect example.....
Hot diggity
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Cool. A lot of neat stones. Thanks. Not every pointy stone is an artifact. I wanna see old flaking covered in lime residue before I'm taking interest. Off topic nobody should clean them.
Charl
Silver Member
Vikingblood, there is one thing you need to do. Photograph the "tip" head on, as seen in this example of a water worn flint point. Most points, but not all, will be bifacial, and most, but not all, will be bi-convex in outline when you look at tne tip head on. If we knew your piece were flint, and we don't know for sure, and if the outline as you show it, and the shape in profile match what it should be for a bifacial point, then I'd be inclined to see it as a water worn point.
But, if that is black shale, that is not a lithic material, and it's surely just a geofact, a look-alike non point.
I fully appreciate, and completely understand, why some here will say "not a point". But, I have shown examples that I know with absolute certainty are in fact points. Probably none better then the large Stark point, probably made of rhyolite, that I posted last.
Most hunters are lucky enough not to have to settle for points as water worn as some that I surface collect on Narragansett Bay. They are not exactly G 10 points! But, yes, you can recognize them. If it's a lithic used where found, and if the outline conforms from every single angle to the form expected for a bifacial point, I do indeed have all the confidence I need to say "I found a point". However, I don't expect others here to simply agree with me. I do understand very few collectors will look at your piece and immediately say "yep, that's a point." On the other hand, I really don't believe one always has to say "can never be proven". I do believe, using the steps I am describing here, yes, you can know if it's a water worn "erased point", or simply a geofact.
Anyway, here's a water worn flint point, showing a bi convex outline when looked at tip-on:
But, if that is black shale, that is not a lithic material, and it's surely just a geofact, a look-alike non point.
I fully appreciate, and completely understand, why some here will say "not a point". But, I have shown examples that I know with absolute certainty are in fact points. Probably none better then the large Stark point, probably made of rhyolite, that I posted last.
Most hunters are lucky enough not to have to settle for points as water worn as some that I surface collect on Narragansett Bay. They are not exactly G 10 points! But, yes, you can recognize them. If it's a lithic used where found, and if the outline conforms from every single angle to the form expected for a bifacial point, I do indeed have all the confidence I need to say "I found a point". However, I don't expect others here to simply agree with me. I do understand very few collectors will look at your piece and immediately say "yep, that's a point." On the other hand, I really don't believe one always has to say "can never be proven". I do believe, using the steps I am describing here, yes, you can know if it's a water worn "erased point", or simply a geofact.
Anyway, here's a water worn flint point, showing a bi convex outline when looked at tip-on:
