SC arrowhead

[wreckvalle]

Do not have alot but every once in a while I find an arrow head while diving. This one was found in SC. would love to know its age.

Capt. Dan
www.aquaexplorers.com

 

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[Vicegrip]

Wow that's one way to find them.
How deep was it?

 

[wreckvalle]

Wow that's one way to find them.
How deep was it?

I found this one in about 40' of water while diving for shark teeth fossils in SC. It as just sitting ont eh bottom of the Cooper River

 

[steve71]

dang looks cold congrats

 

[Vicegrip]

I found this one in about 40' of water while diving for shark teeth fossils in SC. It as just sitting ont eh bottom of the Cooper River
[/quote]

That's just to cool.
Let's see a pic of some shark teeth fossils .

 

[pickaway]

Nice find.

 

[bruce]

I think it is Woodland style dartpoint and I am guessing 2,500 years old.
If there one there more ! Hooked on arrowhead hunting where the fish are plenty.

Bruce

 

[*Molly*]

Nice point, I have lots of these, its a Morrow Mountain-5,000-2,000BC, very nice find.

Molly.

 

[tomclark]

I agree, Archaic. Nice material has that nice river stain.

 

[bruce]

Sorry Wreckvalle,
Steered you wrong on that Molly corrected thank you.
Waubesa is what I was thinking Archaic thanks Tom. Im a learning as I
go.
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[*Molly*]

Waubesa points are found from Ohio to Oklahoma, they are Hopewellian. But they are simular to Morrow Mountains. The Morrow Mountains can be found all down the east from what I understand. Also Morrow Mountains used to be called Garys.

Molly.

 

[Cannonman17]

Waubesa points are found from Ohio to Oklahoma, they are Hopewellian. But they are simular to Morrow Mountains. The Morrow Mountains can be found all down the east from what I understand. Also Morrow Mountains used to be called Garys.

Molly.

Waubesa point distribution is actually considerablly larger than that of a line from Ohio to Oklahoma...The Adena-Waubesa type points are very prevalent up through central MI, WI, MN, and even farther along the lake shores. Also, the Morrow Mountain, Gary, Dickson, Adena-Waubesa type points involves a far more complex, IMO, relationship than what you're ever going to get from that identification book you're looking at. In fact I believe they are often mistaken for one another. Set that book down for a second! Understanding the artifacts that you're finding, or any of us are finding, involves a whole lot more than matching outline shapes of the artifacts to that of a book.

 

[*Molly*]

We'll said cannonman, my thoughts exactly.

Molly.

 

[Neanderthal]

Now I know why Molly was asking me about Waubesa's last night. Firstly, I concur that his point is not Waubesa, it's most likely Morrow Mountain. Now, getting to exactly what Waubesa are. Waubesa are not Adena, they are Hopewell. That's a common falsehood perpetuated by Overstreet guide. Dickson also are not Adena, they are Hopewell. Although they can be easily confused with Adena in outline, they are a much later mid-Woodland type point. Waubesa were actually named after a site in Wisconsin, but seem to share the same distribution range with other Hopewell. We find them readily in Oklahoma (In assocation with Hopewell, namely Snyders Cluster) but do not find Adena. Ohio to Oklahoma does seem to be the appropriate east and west margins in a northernly fashion, they don't seem to extend very far south. Waubesa and Dickson are both commonly mistaken for other type points, generally Adena variants but many other stemmed forms also. Mason, Cresap and Florence also seem to be hard to identify for alot of people. Sometimes, you simply cannot tell the difference in some of them unless found in a datable context or direct association.

I still say the biggest screwup in all of the typology involves our most common stemmed point - "Gary". They are over a dozen different forms and cultures..and yet we (I'm guilty of it too) still call them ..."Gary". I'm working on helping to cure that problem though.

I'm going to try to attach an image that I made a few months ago concerning stemmed forms of the Ozarks. After I made it, I realized I forgot a few (Petit Jean River, Kramer, etc). It does give you an idea of the differences between Waubesa, Dickson and a few others though.

Hope this helps!

 

[Cannonman17]

Good post Matt-

The Waubesa are THICK up this way, they comprise nearly 15% of my total collection. In contrast I have only seen two snyders blades (from two different sites) and one large broken Dickson point. I'm still in the habbit (old habbits are hard to break) of calling the Waubesa points "Adena-Waubesa".

Matt- I have one thing that I've been trying to figure out forever now and maybe you can shed some light on it, with all the waubesa type points I find around here shouldn't I be finding a whole lot more hopewell type remains? I find very little or no pottery that would be considered hopewell, no ground stone tools at all, no chuncky stones, no decerative items, no hoes, only one spot I know of that had some raised garden beds. Tons of the waubesa points though-
About 85% of all the pottery I've found in central wisconsin had been Madison cord wrapped... kind of plain jane stuff... I've always considered it to be part of the woodland tradition but predating the hopewell.. you don't suppose this is the hopewell pottery do you?
Lastly... every fricking book I look at always shows the hopewell culture as being a relatively small blob centered in the ohio river valley and not extending this far north BUT I have found one classic hopewell site complete with pottery, snyders blades, garden beds, etc right here smack in the middle of wisconsin- what gives?

 

[Neanderthal]

Here's some other notes. The Waubesa is in actuality a variant of the Dickson Broadblade and they are commonly found together. Although Adena isn't prevalent over this way, it's thought by many that some of our stemmed forms could be descendants thereof. For instance, the Dickson / Waubesa. It's speculated that the stemmed Hopewell forms could have been some of the earlier ones, a morph of the earlier eastern stemmed lanceolates of the Adena Culture. The Burkett type could be the missing link, if that's the case. Burkett share a similar age to the Adena and a similar form has been found associated with Adena. Our Burkett belong to the Fourche Maline. It's just as likely that our stemmed Hopewell could have derived from earlier stemmed forms that existed over in this area at the time even earlier than the Adena; Hidden Valley, Petit Jean River and Standlee. Petit Jean River are comparable to the Hidden Valley in age (and may be a variant), but found more southward. The Standlee have a much larger distribution range but are slightly later. Standlee is a type that was misidentified by Waldorff and proclaimed a "Stemmed Afton".

See, this is why I shouldn't post...I ramble on too damn much.

 

[Cannonman17]

I like it when you ramble on! You do create more questions than answers sometime though! LOL
Now.. why don't I find hardly any Dickson point up here? Just so we're on the same page I'm scanning what I call Waubesa points to see if you concur- I'm thinking maybe what I've been calling waubesas are what you would call something else....?

 

[Neanderthal]

Good post Matt-

The Waubesa are THICK up this way, they comprise nearly 15% of my total collection. In contrast I have only seen two snyders blades (from two different sites) and one large broken Dickson point. I'm still in the habbit (old habbits are hard to break) of calling the Waubesa points "Adena-Waubesa".

Matt- I have one thing that I've been trying to figure out forever now and maybe you can shed some light on it, with all the waubesa type points I find around here shouldn't I be finding a whole lot more hopewell type remains? I find very little or no pottery that would be considered hopewell, no ground stone tools at all, no chuncky stones, no decerative items, no hoes, only one spot I know of that had some raised garden beds. Tons of the waubesa points though-
About 85% of all the pottery I've found in central wisconsin had been Madison cord wrapped... kind of plain jane stuff... I've always considered it to be part of the woodland tradition but predating the hopewell.. you don't suppose this is the hopewell pottery do you?
Lastly... every fricking book I look at always shows the hopewell culture as being a relatively small blob centered in the ohio river valley and not extending this far north BUT I have found one classic hopewell site complete with pottery, snyders blades, garden beds, etc right here smack in the middle of wisconsin- what gives?

Hey Paul! Yup, I have found sites just like you mention above that have abundance of Waubesa, but little else. Honestly, I think the Snyders Cluster itself was a bit later in the Hopewell Culture and the stemmed forms started earlier. We usually identify the Culture itself with Snyders Affinis (Snyders, Gibson, Grand, Mackinaw, Norton, Carter, Manker, etc), but the stemmed forms are just as much a part, but perhaps started earlier. I know that we don't find all Snyders affiliated points here (usually just Grand, Snyders and rarely a Carter or Mackinaw), but they do in the same group in other places. I think the Hopewell changed dramatically as the people spread out from east to west, a cultural diffusion. I've studied a bit on the Ohio Hopewell group and they were markedly different than ours and even had some different customs. However, they appear to be the same people.

There is only one spot that I hunt that is solely Hopewellian occupation. You will find nothing there but Hopewell artifacts (Snyders Cluster, Dickson & Waubesa). We call the spot "HopeHell" and I've learned a ton from it. I've identified 4 common blade forms from several different tool forms. There is very little pottery, but we do find some Cooper Zone Stamped. Hopewell pottery is some of the rarest there is, and you can probably count on both hands the number of complete Hopewell vessels ever recovered. Owning a complete Zone Stamped vessel is my holy grail and I hope to have one someday. Hey..this reminds me..I actually have pics of "Hopehell" that I may be able to show sometime that would show the layout of the houses, etc. I'll see if I can't dig through the hard drive and find them. I took them when the lake was down and you can visibly make out the layout of the village.

 

[Neanderthal]

Quick question..Paul, do you any of those with the stems ground on them?

 

[Cannonman17]

While this was just a sample group none of them have ground stems.. I could go check all of them but I don't think I have ever found one like these with a ground base- why?