Stone Tablet Symbols?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO ORO / BETH: Fill in data,

Tayopa #1 was / is in the Guaynopa / Guaynopita area, still to be located.

Tayopa #2 is the Dos Rios, west of Yecora on the western side of the Sierra Obscuro.

Tayop 3 , the one that most of the stories are about, in mine.

I have never heard of any other Tayopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Real de Tayopa,

Real de Tayopa wrote:

Tayopa #1 was / is in the Guaynopa / Guaynopita area, still to be located.

Tayopa #2 is the Dos Rios, west of Yecora on the western side of the Sierra Obscuro.

Tayop 3 , the one that most of the stories are about, in mine.

I have never heard of any other Tayopa.

Then are you saying that Tayopa is not within the Superstition mountains of Arizona? For the record...

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript: A note for newbies and beginners.....

I know that some good folks have been tempted to link many different legends and treasures into the LDM, and yes it makes for interesting discussion and theorizing, but many of these seemingly unrelated legends have very little to tie them in with the LDM.

The KGC (Knights of the Golden Circle) this secret Southern society had many intrigues, but there is little in the way of "treasures" that I could find that could be traced directly to them - now perhaps they did have some treasures, but it is logical that if they had such treasures they would have used them to help finance the Southern war effort in the Civil War.

The KT (Knights Templar) a religious cult that had a stranglehold on Mediterranean shipping and pilgrimages to the Holy Land, the group was attacked by the European monarchies and (apparently) wiped out. They did have perhaps a very large treasure, which has never been recovered. The logical places to look for it are the last holdouts of the KT, which are in northern Scotland and the Hebrides islands. Perhaps Sir Henry Sinclair was a KT, perhaps not - it is possible that Sinclair might have slipped to North America with the KT treasure to conceal it far from the clutches of European monarchies, but we can only guess. What little evidence that exists suggests that Sinclair never got any farther than Massachusetts, which is a bit of a hike from Arizona's Superstitions.

Aztec/Montezuma treasure - it is known that the Aztecs did remove a huge treasure from their capital Tenochtitlan on the expulsion of Cortez, and that they moved it north - but from there the path has vanished. While the Aztecs did have friendly relations with some northern tribes (like the Navajos and some of the Pueblos) there seems to be no reason to think they had knowledge of anything in the Superstitions, nor that they ever entered the mountains there.

Jesuit treasures - while the Society of Jesus denies having had any mines or treasures, there is evidence that they did have both; that said, there is virtually nothing to show that they ever entered the Superstitions, so there is no reason to look for anything Jesuit in those mountains.

Maximilians treasure - there is evidence that Maximilians treasure did make it into the US, however it appears that his pack train was attacked and wiped out - with the treasure being buried in either New Mexico or west Texas, not in Arizona.

All of this is JUST MY OPINION based on what I could learn, and posted for the benefit of our readers who may or may not be posting but have little knowledge of these subjects. It would be very interesting indeed if any or all of these theories could be proven to be tied in with some kinds of lost mines or buried treasures in the Superstition mountains of Arizona, but at the moment there seems to be little to support these ideas. Psychically obtained information notwithstanding - some of our searchers are using what would be called "psychic" methods to search, and this has provided a lot of information - unfortunately at the moment this information has not been proven beyond doubt and could perhaps be simply wrong. Often enough psychic information is quite correct, however it is also often just wrong and the only way to find out is to search in the field.

For the newbie/beginner, don't be discouraged by my apparent dismissals of so many theories, as I am equally convinced that very rich gold mines do exist in the Superstitions or the immediate area around them that remain un-discovered. It is quite possible that one or more great treasures may well be concealed there as well, only a determined and lucky treasure hunter has a fair chance of ever finding them - IN MY OPINION. I am sure there are plenty of good folks here who will take great exception to what I have said in this post (among many) so I hope I have not ruffed too many feathers - remember this is all just my views on these subjects and NOT the final word on anything.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

for one there were aztec tribes from the area or had a under standing of the supers

"This article or section needs sources or references that appear in credible, third-party publications. Alone, primary sources and sources affiliated with the subject of this article are not sufficient for an accurate encyclopedia article. Please include more appropriate citations from reliable sources.
This article has been tagged since May 2007.
For other uses, see Aztlán (disambiguation).
The seven caves of Chicomoztoc, from Historia Tolteca-ChichimecaAztlán (/as.ˈtlan/, from Nahuatl Aztlan /ˈas.tɬaːn/) is the legendary ancestral home of the Nahua peoples, one of the main cultural groups in Mesoamerica. "Azteca" is the Nahuatl word for "people from Aztlan."


The legend
Nahuatl legends relates that seven tribes lived in Chicomoztoc, or "the place of the seven caves." Each cave represented a different Nahua group: the Xochimilca, Tlahuica, Acolhua, Tlaxcalan, Tepaneca, Chalca, and Mexica. Because of a common linguistic origin, those groups also are called "Nahuatlaca" (Nahua people). These tribes subsequently left the caves and settled in Aztlán.

The various descriptions of Aztlán are contradictory. While some legends describe Aztlán as a paradise, the Aubin Codex says that the Aztecs were subject to a tyrant elite called the Azteca Chicomoztoca. Guided by their priest, the Aztec fled, and on the road, their god Huitzilopochtli forbade them to call themselves Azteca, telling them that they should be known as Mexica. Ironically, the scholars of the 19th century would name them Aztec."

as far as the templars , we dont really know if they were in the area for mining ... they could have had one of a dozen diffrent reasons for being there if they were . expolation ,investment , exspan into unknown areas where they could hide the growth of their wealth ...

besides where else did they have to go after they vanished ...? i am not saying its fact . i only say it is posable . is it logical . we dont know from our prospective what motive they may have had or did'nt have at the time ... they were known to be masters secercy ,it would not be that unlikely to find no trace of them or their presence in the area , in fact if i found to much i would question the thoery even more so ...but the fact remains it is posable ...and we may not see the logical reasoning . but we were not there at that piont in time ...

and the fact dose remain the priest on the priest stone dose wear the cross on his uper arm ...and dose look to be stapped with a sword that looks like a cross .. in all reality this is exactly what they must have felt like the chruch had done to them ... maybe when the chruch urn their back to the templars they took the treasure as far away as humanly posable . thus AZ is a long ways away .. at the time and the under standing of the earth it was the other side of the planet....


but lets not make theory fact by here say . opioion and theory is just that . almost no one other then Oro has ask me anything questions dirrected beyond the theories and opioions .

why dont know who made the stones , everyone has a opioion who made them .. but can the stones tell us . i think they did ...


i know for a fact what that piont out and where , why is the next thing we need to under stand ...

i can piont out every detail and how they fit the mt range ..

i still have a hard time under standing why know one else uder stands the amont of navigational skills it would have taken to make those maps ....?

i see it as two posablities .

1. they are a total joke and a fake . wish i know for a fact they are not ...for a few reasons
a. the preson had fristhand wisdom of the area in full detail and scale .. that in it self is unbeleiveable for those times .even if we exspan the time range from 1200-1800 ...
b. the laquages use are broken castlian and portquese...it is not odd these languages show up togather . i think the signs are there we just had the idea the treasure was much younger then it truely was ...

with all the latter histroy and conflects of the area it was not hard to see how this could happen...the wars between the indains alone vanished a lot of the signs...


2. i got to agree with Oro about one piont . the black powerd . the black powerd was defind by the code . yet stated they word cask ... as as the wording tonel ..and the RNA as a old navigational term ..that term was not used very long because of its confussion with other navigational terms ...most captains had no idea what it ment or that it was being used ..

yet we see a magnetic early compass and early navigation tri and fix DR signs , these are still used todate out of respect to henry the avigator the found of modern navigation....

i think he used them so others latter would know who did these stones & maps .. i told you all that each navigator has a signature every bit as much detaied as a finger print is to each of us ...


see i can only ask my self , who had those skills and and when were those insterments being used and by who ...who could have had ships and and why is there no record of this preson and the ships movements .

was it hiden from the outside world ..if so why and by who and who could have done this and was it the act of a signal man or was it dirrected by a group or leader ...

IMHO only henry had all of these ...if he had switched place with another of his captains would anyone have known other then his own crew ...? most likely not ..

but under stand it from my piont of veiw you can put anyone in his place as a preson , but they most like would have very little idea of what the hell they should be doing .. you can take the man out of the picture but you cant take the skills out of those maps ...and thats an out right fact ...IMHO


2.

 

[the blindbowman]

lets for the sake of debeat take this one step up ..
OK ,Henry made the maps , no matter if some words were added or changed or someone added other things after . when , dose not matter right now ..

so we set are basic under stand ..if henry was there , he could have only been there at one piont in time, that i could defind as possble , you got it " 1435 " the same date i found over writen ...people that is to much of a dirrect link to just over look it..see there is a reason i say this . often a admiral dirrects his fleet and he can be on any ship at any piont in time and maynot be record in the ships log at times .. thus henry could have been elsewhere when people beleived he was some where else ...and if his king was hideing his where abouts . and dirrecting the events him self no one would have known ...

so what would we have .

we would have, a place ,a time , motive , opportunity ,skills and the resorces...

thats my piont !

lol i got to say its a crazy turn of events from what we believe we know as fact , but that dose not make it faults ,unlikely maybe . but we often over look two things .

the unknown .

and the obvious...

 

[the blindbowman]

so what do you get , the unknown obvious or the obviously unknown .. could that be linked with it oppsite abstract confusesion or randomly missplaced ...

 

[Twisted Fork]

All you need to know is where the tablets were found, and then shoot basic high triangulation point to point through the chain of mineral zones. From there it is simply being able to read a basic set of 5 land forms in sequence, that put you onto the natural looking, man made monuments chaining together the mines, caches and vaults that the triangulation shoot over. The trail runs between King's peak, Utah, and the Weaver's needle The system is more Masonic than anything.

 

[the blindbowman]

sorry where the tablets were found had nothing to do with what is on them or how they are read ...



for one thats not a triangulation ...

 

[Twisted Fork]

The tablets are designed to be printed in damp sand like plates for printing cash. Or you can charcoal trace over them as well, and then use five different insignias as guides to cut the paper map into pieces and reassemble them into 1 of 3 different maps. Each map can be used 1 of 8 different ways by turning it around, face up or backwards. Nature repeats itself anyplace where pure gold has been formed and is consistent using the same 5 land forms on interchanging scales, alternating and inverting from site to site. Comes from an oriental paper game adopted by the Jesuit.

This is the same code and geometry that can be used on any Masonic map; scale and ground position are the keys to reading it on the ground. They will make you go stark raving mad if you let them.

Look for a basic pattern in the tablets as you trace over them or make photo copies, and then cut the paper map into 3 puzzle pieces, by fitting a giant number 7 over the page as your first cutting guide or template. Swivel this 7 guide around to find it's most likely fit on the map. Now cut along the seven's edges. Now ending up with the map cut into three pieces and sitting in front of you in their original lay positions, reassemble the three as overlays, starting by leaving the largest piece the way it sits. The next two pieces one after the other, these last two must first each be turned counter clockwise, to the limit of your wrist rotation, from their original lay positions, before laying each one down atop the other. This will bring each piece near it's placement position. Wing it from there. It will fit at the point of where the most graphics match along their edges. The following map is far more complicated, but works under the same principles. The Peralta's tablets and paper maps work under the basics of the code. It's easier than it looks.

 

[Cubfan64]

BB - did you ever hear the story that as Waltz lay dying in the storage room of Julia's shoppe she began charging people $ for a few minutes alone with him? Supposedly there were a number of eye witnesses to this happening.

I've noticed that quite a few of the LDM stories and legends have a real "romanticized" spin to them. When one really digs down to the very few real "facts" surrounding those legends (documented evidence), one begins questioning more and more of the romanticized ideas.

 

[the blindbowman]

i did not write the acount i just posted . and i did not say i beleived it ..

do i believe juial and the waltz were lovers . possable but not likely , but could you ever rule out the power of greed ,,.... that i could beleive ...


UFO's , Reptilain people, short people tall people goverment coverups ,, who could beleive any of this ... but after haveing the goverment say hello i dont put anything in the circle file ...not yet at lest ...do i beleive them logicailly no i dont ... but the unexplaned can always be found in legend ...

what motavated people a long time ago may not be the same motavations that we see today ...can i explan it.... no ...

when i was in the mts . i felt something watching ... it was not human ... i dont know what it was . but it watch me . when i felt it watching . i called my spirit guide and it vanished ... i guess it dose not like the cry of the hawk .....who or what it was vanished as if it had a hiden cave near by .... it feeds at night and most likely eats anything it can find ... not a big cat , bear or wolf ...this is diffrent .. it think as we do . ..

you all be carrefull out there ....

 

[Cubfan64]

i did not write the acount i just posted . and i did not say i beleived it ..

do i believe juial and the waltz were lovers . possable but not likely , but could you ever rule out the power of greed ,,.... that i could beleive ...


UFO's , Reptilain people, short people tall people goverment coverups ,, who could beleive any of this ... but after haveing the goverment say hello i dont put anything in the circle file ...not yet at lest ...do i beleive them logicailly no i dont ... but the unexplaned can always be found in legend ...

what motavated people a long time ago may not be the same motavations that we see today ...can i explan it.... no ...

when i was in the mts . i felt something watching ... it was not human ... i dont know what it was . but it watch me . when i felt it watching . i called my spirit guide and it vanished ... i guess it dose not like the cry of the hawk .....who or what it was vanished as if it had a hiden cave near by .... it feeds at night and most likely eats anything it can find ... not a big cat , bear or wolf ...this is diffrent .. it think as we do . ..

you all be carrefull out there ....

I didn't mean to imply that you wrote that account or that you believed it. I've read that before as well and know where it's from.

As I read it though, it just struck me again how different every single account is of the LDM legend. Trying to wade through the reams and reams of stories and pick out the things that one thinks are more likely than not is a daunting task. It doesn't help when the have no idea what the motivations were for the writers - did they embelish the story? Did they romanticize it? Did they downright lie to make it sound better? As you said, who the heck knows.

That's one of the reasons why the LDM is such a controversial legend - because every single person who investigates it and begins researching it begins pulling their own "facts" out of the many stories and the odds of 2 people having the exact same opinions on what is fact and what is not are pretty much nil.

Personally, if I consider the times and places where these things happened, I would tend to believe that Waltz just liked Julia or felt sorry for her (for whatever reason) and befriended her. Would it be surprising that as he got older he began seeking a little companionship (not romantic, just someone to talk to)? My grandfather just turned 93 the other day and I can tell you that his entire demeanor has changed over the last 10 years or so - he went from being a loner and rather gruff at times, to wanting to spend time with those friends of his who are still alive, going to church, just sitting around talking and having company. He tears up now and then when he talks about things from his past and believe as he gets closer to his own mortality he wants to help people that he's able to. Perhaps Waltz began feeling the same way and Julia just happened to be in the right place at the right time. As you said, greed can do terrible things to a person's mind - Julia already showed at one time that she wasn't particularly good with money matters - we all know what the sight of gold can do to people - would it be that far fetched to believe that Julia's main purpose for befriending Waltz was to find out where his gold was hidden?

There are just so many possibilities surrounding this legend we could sit and talk about them for hours - I guess that's one reason why I'm going to the Rendevouz this weekend - I want to hear some of those stories first hand and meet some of the people who have devoted years of their life to these legends.

 

[the blindbowman]

i agree cub , i wonder about the peralta massacre at the upper la barge, i have spent weeks looking for any other acounts of this site and only found one dirrectlyand its translated in a few diffrent ways ...

you be sure to take some pictures when you go .. that is a rare chance to meet some old timers ..

i will give you a good hint . ask them and wait for their reply...give them enough time to answer and a ew mintues more in case they for got someithng ... they are glad i wont be there i would have got them standing on their toes before the event was over ...guns would be loaded and the smiles would have vanished ,,,lol then again you never know they may have wanted to give me their daughters lol ...you never know . cub ...

i think you well have a great time and meet a lot of good people ... i would have let them do all the talking ...thats just because i dont need any daughters lol ...

focus on one thing and stick to your guns kid ...at lest that way you will find out a lot of one thing ...you are very lucky i could not go this year .. i saw they had the stones out to show people ..if i could have touch the stones with one finger it would have told me everything about that stone , and i do mean everything ...


you enjoy the event . and let us know what you think of the people you meet there .. and what you learn .

tell Clay high for me , i wont get to see him next year ,, dont ask , you dont want to know ...

in fact you should try to talk to clay ,ron ,and cj , if he shows Brad sutherland ...i would try to talk to everyone but if they talk dont miss a word ...

 

[Cubfan64]

i agree cub , i wonder about the peralta massacre at the upper la barge, i have spent weeks looking for any other acounts of this site and only found one dirrectlyand its translated in a few diffrent ways ...

you be sure to take some pictures when you go .. that is a rare chance to meet some old timers ..

i will give you a good hint . ask them and wait for their reply...give them enough time to answer and a ew mintues more in case they for got someithng ... they are glad i wont be there i would have got them standing on their toes before the event was over ...guns would be loaded and the smiles would have vanished ,,,lol then again you never know they may have wanted to give me their daughters lol ...you never know . cub ...

i think you well have a great time and meet a lot of good people ... i would have let them do all the talking ...thats just because i dont need any daughters lol ...

focus on one thing and stick to your guns kid ...at lest that way you will find out a lot of one thing ...you are very lucky i could not go this year .. i saw they had the stones out to show people ..if i could have touch the stones with one finger it would have told me everything about that stone , and i do mean everything ...


you enjoy the event . and let us know what you think of the people you meet there .. and what you learn .

tell Clay high for me , i wont get to see him next year ,, dont ask , you dont want to know ...

in fact you should try to talk to clay ,ron ,and cj , if he shows Brad sutherland ...i would try to talk to everyone but if they talk dont miss a word ...

Well, I guarantee I'll be bombarding the site with pictures when I get back As far as who I talk to, I'll be shaking as many hands and saying hello to as many folks as I can, but being a relatively newbie to the LDM stories/search, I'll be doing a whole lot more listening than I will be talking

Just checked the weather report - supposed to be in the low to mid 90's Thurs - Sunday with lows at night in the mid to upper 50's and so far no sign of any rain. Gotta make sure to pack some sunscreen and sunglasses and plenty of water!

 

[Twisted Fork]

Hard to believe that Waltz would send anyone to the true location of the Mine if he knew the Apache would be waiting for them.

 

[the blindbowman]

cub there is a nice little shopping super martket at the end of the road just as you trun into 177 . we got bottle water there .. its nice to remember ,rpices were good ... a few miles back toward AJ is a mc dee's get a large milk shake each night and it helps hydro levelsand taste great after a hot day in the desert ...


very true twisted i think thats why e send dick holmes lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman thank you for posting that portion of the Aztec legends. What I find puzzling is why anyone would think Chicomoztoc would be in Arizona? Perhaps a map of the Aztec empire would be useful to get some idea of just how FAR away Arizona was from the northern edge of the Aztec empire:

If you take note of the shadow map in the lower left corner of this map, you can see that area within the borders of modern Mexico. Can you get some idea of the vast distance between the Aztec empire northern border and the Arizona border? We are talking a minimum of 1000 miles just as a rough estimate. Here is another map which shows the Aztec empire at its greatest extent:

I really don't see any reason to think Aztecs were hiking on foot that distance, to a land they probably had little knowledge of. On foot was their only method of traveling, and the lands in between were occupied by other tribes, not all of which were friendly with the Aztecs. There could have been trade going on between the peoples of Arizona and the Aztecs, but this does not mean that the Aztecs would have had permission to use Arizona as a repository for their treasures. For that matter, simply because Aztec trade items coudl turn up in the US, does not mean that Aztecs carried them there - it is quite probable that other peoples were acting as traders. Unless some kind of solid evidence can be shown to prove that Aztecs came to Arizona to bury their treasure, we are speculating to say they were in the Superstitions.

As for what happened to the Knights Templar, well it is safe to say that a good number of them were killed, burned at the stake for heresies, etc and some have theorized that they simply went to Switzerland where they established their own state, similar to what the Teutonic knights did in Prussia. Others ended up in northern Scotland. Without some concrete evidence to show that Templar knights were in Arizona, it is pure speculation to say they were present.

Blindbowman mi amigo have you done a little background research on the famous Portuguese king Henry, known to history as the Navigator? I think you might have overlooked the fact that (other than visiting Africa on numerous expeditions) Henry never left Portugal, but organized and financed voyages of exploration heading around Africa, looking for the legendary kingdom of Prester John (probably Ethiopia, the only Christian kingdom in sub-Saharan Africa at the time) not west across the Atlantic. However, considering that accidental crossings of the Atlantic have taken place throughout history, and there is a Portuguese map dated to 1424 that appears to show some features of the Americas we cannot say that NO Portuguese ever made it to America before Columbus. However, even if Henry did know of the Americas, he sure expended all of his resources in NOT going there but pushing for conquest of Mauritania, the Canaries, and elsewhere in Africa in pursuit of the far eastern trade route around Africa. Then too, it is one thing to know about the coastline of any particular landmass, quite another to know the hinterlands of the interior well enough to have knowledge of such an area as the Superstitions.

Wikipedia's article on Henry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_the_Navigator

Here is an article with a good coverage of king Henry:
http://www.thornr.demon.co.uk/kchrist/phenry.html

Again, without solid evidence to prove that king Henry created the stone maps, and that the Portuguese were present in the Superstitions we are speculating. Interesting speculation, agreed, but still un-proven.

They will make you go stark raving mad if you let them.

ABSOLUTELY!

Cubfan64 wrote:

It doesn't help when the have no idea what the motivations were for the writers - did they embelish the story? Did they romanticize it? Did they downright lie to make it sound better? As you said, who the heck knows.

Did the treasure writers embellish the story of the lost mine of Jacob Waltz? YES
Did the treasure writers romanticize the story of the LDM? YES
Did the treasure writers downright LIE to make it sound better? ABSOLUTELY YES

This is a big part of the problem for anyone trying to find the Lost Dutchman mine - that treasure writers have added on so much BS that it is difficult now to try to extricate what the original facts were. I don't know why but some folks just are not satisfied with just the richest lost gold mine in the world, but simply have to have all kinds of romantic, dramatic and exciting fiction tacked on before they can believe it. To make matters worse, for some treasure hunters, when they learn that some particular aspect they have been believing in is fiction, they then dismiss everything as fiction which is not warranted. Let me put this another way: ask yourself this - do we have to have Aztecs, Templars, Portuguese, Jesuits, Peraltas etc to make an incredibly rich gold mine worth looking for?

Sorry for the long-winded post. Now show us some proof of Aztec treasure, Templar treasure, Portuguese treasure or king Henry in the in the Superstitions so we can go and start re-writing the history books! We can debate endlessly, until the incontrovertible evidence turns up to close the book.

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Blindbowman thank you for posting that portion of the Aztec legends. What I find puzzling is why anyone would think Chicomoztoc would be in Arizona? ....
Oroblanco

Oro, people have placed Chicomoztoc in a number of locations, ranging from Mexico to Florida to Michigan to California and all points in between, the arguements usually bent to promote the writer's agenda, be it some sort of treasure hunting, political or religious fervor. IMHO, the seven sites, whatever they are, are probably concentrated in the NM-AZ-UT-CA region, more or less. Here's an arguement for Arizona.

http://members.aol.com/rgbabcock/index2.html

...I really don't see any reason to think Aztecs were hiking on foot that distance, to a land they probably had little knowledge of. On foot was their only method of traveling, and the lands in between were occupied by other tribes, not all of which were friendly with the Aztecs. There could have been trade going on between the peoples of Arizona and the Aztecs, but this does not mean that the Aztecs would have had permission to use Arizona as a repository for their treasures. For that matter, simply because Aztec trade items coudl turn up in the US, does not mean that Aztecs carried them there - it is quite probable that other peoples were acting as traders. Unless some kind of solid evidence can be shown to prove that Aztecs came to Arizona to bury their treasure, we are speculating to say they were in the Superstitions....

Of course they knew the terrain-Chicomoztoc was the original homeland of the Mexica before they migrated south to the present Mexico City area. From what we know of their history, they weren't in a position to ask permission for anything from anyone, let alone the relatively weak and unorganized tribes in their path at the time. I'm not a big supporter of the 'Montezuma's Treasure' legend myself (no mention of the trip, other than in TH rags), but I do believe the original source of their gold was in North America (Chicomoztoc). Did they move their treasure back to its original location following Cortes' destruction of their civilization? Maybe - as penance for angering their gods.

...As for what happened to the Knights Templar, well it is safe to say that a good number of them were killed, burned at the stake for heresies, etc and some have theorized that they simply went to Switzerland where they established their own state, similar to what the Teutonic knights did in Prussia. Others ended up in northern Scotland. Without some concrete evidence to show that Templar knights were in Arizona, it is pure speculation to say they were present....

This branch of the tree did relocate as you've stated. Other branches (Jesuits, KGC, Masons, Mormons, etc.) later became (are) active in North America. These treasures are still owned by those who placed them. The right hand may not know what the left hand is doing at the bottom of the pyramid, but whoever is at the top certainly does. This saga has been ongoing for millenia.

 

[the blindbowman]

evidence is a real knife , it can cut both ways if you dont see it comeing ... what will expedition 3 find ,good piont ...we are not sure what we have yet , other then it has not been found before . or reported found ...

and that is dose fit a few diffrent legends ...dose it matter who put the treasure out there at this piont in time ..no it dosent really ... the game at this piont i hide and go seek ....to hell with the clues and legends ...and who put the treasures out there if they are out there .. the piont is finding them .. sound nvigational skills and dozens of translations each one tested to fit each site ... ...

right now we have 40 sites ...

many well go to the Rendevous ,why i set here waiting for items collected rom ebay for expedition 3 ... i got weeks of this ahead of me . ..and all those items well be tested and well help the expedition find and collect the evidence needed ...

we may find nothing all but would i say they if we already did ,,....yes ...maybe not who knows ...i do ...

 

[Oroblanco]

There are theories and then there are theories. As for the location of the original homeland of the Aztecs, I would follow the original source as we all do when researching anything related to treasure hunting. Here is a little quote, which includes the relevant direction to look for Chicomoztoc:

quote:

"We have known for a long time, from the chronicles of our forefathers, that neither I, nor those who inhabit this country, are descendants from the aborigines of it, but from strangers who came to it from very distant parts; and we also hold, that our race was brought to these parts by a lord, whose vassals they all were, and who returned to his native country, and had many descendants, and had built towns where they were living; when, therefore, he wished to take them away with him they would not go, nor still less receive him as their ruler, so he departed. And we have always held that those who descended from his would come to subjugate this country and us, as his vassals; and according to the direction from which you say you come, which is where the sun rises,and from what you tell us of your great lord, or king, who has sent you here, we believe, and hold for certain, that he is our rightful sovereign, especially as you tell us that since many days he has had news of us. Hence you may be sure, that we shall obey you, and hold you as the representative of this great lord of whom you speak, and that in this there will be no lack or deception; and throughout the whole country you may command at your will (I speak of what I possess in my dominions), because you will be obeyed, and recognized, and all we possess is at your disposal. Since you are in your rightful place, and in your own homes, rejoice and rest, free from all the trouble of the journey, and wars which you have had, for I am well aware of all that has happened to you, between Puntunchan and here, and I know very well, that the people of Cempoal, and Tascaltecal, have told you many evil things respecting me. Do not believe more than you see with your own eyes, especially from those who are my enemies, and were my vassals, yet rebelled against me on your coming (as they say), in order to help you. I know they have told you also that I have houses, with walls of gold, and that the furniture of my halls, and other things of my service, were also of gold, and that I am, or make myself, a god, and many other things. The houses you have seen are of lime and stone and earth.

These are the words of the Aztec emperor Montezuma, on the occasion of his meeting Cortez for the very first time. The Aztecs had a legend of their own origins, and this legend said that they had come from a distant land in the direction of the RISING SUN, which is to the East, not North, South or West. Yes there are different versions of Aztec origins mythology - however consider a very important fact: When the Spanish arrived in Mexico, having told the Amerindians that they had sailed across the sea coming from the direction of the rising sun, the Aztecs interpreted this at once as the return of Quetzalcoatl, returning from their own homeland, and that they by rights should be his vassals. If the Aztecs original homeland was in fact to the North (as in Arizona) or South (the land of the "South Hummingbird" which is another version) or West, then they would have viewed Cortez quite differently and reacted very differently. So yes, it is possible that the Aztec homeland of Chicomoztoc or land of seven caves was in Arizona, but their own king and people certainly believed it was to the East, and thus saw Cortez the way they did. At least this is eloquent proof to me.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from searching the Superstitions, just that us treasure hunters sometimes get our heads in the clouds and forget to keep at least one foot on the ground. If Blindbowman's discoveries turn out to be Templars, he will be able to enjoy 'rubbing our noses' in it when he proves it. I think it would be wise to keep the door open, and even to possibilities that have not even been touched upon here - history is far more complex and interesting than we read in the history books, a great many things are largely ignored or hardly mentioned in them. What if it turned out to be a hidden treasure left behind by ancient Arab traders, or even Chinese monks? These are also real possibilities, with little to support them as fact, but we get side-tracked with other theories and forget that so many other possibilities exist.

Oroblanco