Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[deducer]

Unfortunately, according to Tonto officials, most of what we are writing about never happened.

"The Jesuits did not conduct illegal mining operations in the Superstitions for the simple reason that they never set foot in them. There was no "cover-up" by Polzer. It never happened. Indeed, there is no evidence of mining anywhere in the Superstitions, much less any done by Spanish clerics, nor any Spanish era artifacts. For that matter, the conclusion of every geologic study of the Superstitions (and there are many) is that the area is strictly volcanic and non-mineralized inside the caldera. The only mineralization is around the edges in Goldfield, the small tungsten field to the south, and over towards Superior."

So, the bar is set almost unreasonably high.

If these "objects" exist and, if they are in private collections, why no photographs?


I don't see a Peralta massacre in the Superstitions but, if we are cherry picking legends, I can imagine a small party of Mormon settlers being killed at Mormon Flat.
No known official record for it.

Thank you deducer.

These officials have an obligation to maintain the position that nothing happened out there and for once I actually agree with what they are trying to do. Otherwise them hills would be full of holes and SAR would end up being deployed on an almost daily basis.

Their job is to preserve the wilderness, unless someone needs to run an oil pipe through it, in which case everything goes out the window, ancient burial sites are bulldozed by the hundreds, natives are attacked, injured, and arrested and there is a total media blackout #NoDAPL

 

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[azdave35]

I think that it has to to with the three calderas essentially intersecting/overlapping each other but, I know almost nothing about geology.


On a side note, have you changed your position on the stones, about them being a waste of one's time?
From your post, it kinda seems that way.

hal...i dont pay much attention to what the geologist's call caldera's...these are the same geologist's that tell us there are no minerals in the superstitions...the stone maps that are on display at the museum aren't going to do anyone any good...

 

[sdcfia]

These officials have an obligation to maintain the position that nothing happened out there and for once I actually agree with what they are trying to do. Otherwise them hills would be full of holes and SAR would end up being deployed on an almost daily basis.

Their job is to preserve the wilderness, unless someone needs to run an oil pipe through it, in which case everything goes out the window, ancient burial sites are bulldozed by the hundreds, natives are attacked, injured, and arrested and there is a total media blackout #NoDAPL

Yet another disgraceful betrayal in ND, sparked by valuable resources - a pattern that began 500 years ago. I was in the upper midwest a couple weeks ago and there actually is some limited media coverage, but it's total deception.

 

[EarnieP]

These officials have an obligation to maintain the position that nothing happened out there and for once I actually agree with what they are trying to do. Otherwise them hills would be full of holes and SAR would end up being deployed on an almost daily basis.

Their job is to preserve the wilderness, unless someone needs to run an oil pipe through it, in which case everything goes out the window, ancient burial sites are bulldozed by the hundreds, natives are attacked, injured, and arrested and there is a total media blackout #NoDAPL

Nice post deducer, well said.

 

[wrmickel1]

Yeah, it was a betrayal, The deal was signed, 10 million to Standing Rock reservation! But when they got there they said
we want Twenty Million. So they called on Warren buffet to fund there protest, cause he will loose 2.1 billion a year if the pipeline is finished. Cause all that oil is trained out of there BNSF Railroad, The same guy who stoled 100's a millions from his customers at Wells Fargo.

Poor Natives my ass! The pipeline is a mile away from Standing Rock! Following a gas line that's been there for years. The land is owed by the Cor of engineers. It's all about money no sacred sites! Media blackout cause the Goverment controls the *******s!

Wrmickel 1 ND

If you want some links to local news outlets that are covering this I could post some!

 

[Injunbro]

There doesn't seem to be a forum for general history so I'll update Great-Grandpa's (referred to as GG from now on) Lost Dutchman encounter here & perhaps tell some more of his escapades in another place. Walz had a campsite directly east of Miguel Peralta's Valenciana Mine, which I found 20 or so years ago following directions from GG's diary. To answer the question that's sure to pop up: No, I don't have GG's diary, one of my cousins does. I'll give directions to the Valenciana if anyone wants to look @ a worked-out mine. In Walz's camp I found a few rusted mining tools that were likely left by a later owner & a very old, worn out Apache style moccasin. Walz & Peralta both sold their claims & went back south where Apache/Yavapai/Western Apache problems were less. Walz left a cache of ore in a cave in the Aqua Fria River canyon which he or someone emptied out later since there's nothing there except a few Indian pottery shards (if anyone wants to make a long, hard, fruitless hike across a steep canyon send me a PM & I'll dive directions. Permission from State, BLM & private ranch is up to you but all must be crossed). Walz had several caches in the Sup's & part of the confusion of his mines location is from him giving directions to caches, not just the mine itself. Another story that gets confused is the story of killing the Mexicans comes directly from the finding (& stealing) of the Constellation Mine North of Wickenburg. Walz may have been part of that, the time frame fits. There's a little @ the Constellation Mine left but nothing of the town site. Soon after Walz was told to leave Wickenburg & his job @ the Vulture Mine - he hadn't been caught high-grading but several friends were & hung. He & Peralta soon left for the Valenciana workings I told about in an earlier post. The ore from the Vulture Mine doesn't match that found after his death (yes, I compared it - it was in a private collection in Phoenix but has moved since). Walz & GG both had Apache wives & the women enjoyed each others company although there was a big difference in age (GG & wife was younger) & visited on occasion. The Apache side of the story is Walz's wife was killed by them for revealing Indian caches in the Sup's one of which was in the Sacred Cave. Before anyone asks, Although I know where the cave is I won't discuss, confirm, deny, etc. anything about the caves location. I'm too old & bunged up to go there again but trust me there's no longer anything there of value to a White man anymore. There is a sacred, watched Haataali (medicine Man) burial site nearby that will get you killed for messing w/. There is @ least 1 spot Walz dug gold ore in the Sup's in rose quartz that's been covered. I was told by Apache friends/relatives I was standing on it once. Nope, won't share that location either since it's too close to their Holy Land (I'm Christian but respect their beliefs) & it would only get you in trouble digging there. Truth be told its been so many decades I'd have trouble finding that spot again anyway & my wife & I have plenty to eat. Contrary to common belief traditional Apaches thought using a bit of free gold when things were needed for survival was fine. Greed or materialism will get you killed. I don't care if you believe this story or not but don't bother trying to start an argument, I'll just go away, it's not worth the bother. There's a lot more to GG's life & times & I'll try to get around to the rest later in a different thread if there's interest (his life was a mixture of outlaw work, rescuing a kid named Tom Horn, caching treasure, smuggling, mining, scouting & good family values that sounds like a tall tale but is true).

 

[azdave35]

There doesn't seem to be a forum for general history so I'll update Great-Grandpa's (referred to as GG from now on) Lost Dutchman encounter here & perhaps tell some more of his escapades in another place. Walz had a campsite directly east of Miguel Peralta's Valenciana Mine, which I found 20 or so years ago following directions from GG's diary. To answer the question that's sure to pop up: No, I don't have GG's diary, one of my cousins does. I'll give directions to the Valenciana if anyone wants to look @ a worked-out mine. In Walz's camp I found a few rusted mining tools that were likely left by a later owner & a very old, worn out Apache style moccasin. Walz & Peralta both sold their claims & went back south where Apache/Yavapai/Western Apache problems were less. Walz left a cache of ore in a cave in the Aqua Fria River canyon which he or someone emptied out later since there's nothing there except a few Indian pottery shards (if anyone wants to make a long, hard, fruitless hike across a steep canyon send me a PM & I'll dive directions. Permission from State, BLM & private ranch is up to you but all must be crossed). Walz had several caches in the Sup's & part of the confusion of his mines location is from him giving directions to caches, not just the mine itself. Another story that gets confused is the story of killing the Mexicans comes directly from the finding (& stealing) of the Constellation Mine North of Wickenburg. Walz may have been part of that, the time frame fits. There's a little @ the Constellation Mine left but nothing of the town site. Soon after Walz was told to leave Wickenburg & his job @ the Vulture Mine - he hadn't been caught high-grading but several friends were & hung. He & Peralta soon left for the Valenciana workings I told about in an earlier post. The ore from the Vulture Mine doesn't match that found after his death (yes, I compared it - it was in a private collection in Phoenix but has moved since). Walz & GG both had Apache wives & the women enjoyed each others company although there was a big difference in age (GG & wife was younger) & visited on occasion. The Apache side of the story is Walz's wife was killed by them for revealing Indian caches in the Sup's one of which was in the Sacred Cave. Before anyone asks, Although I know where the cave is I won't discuss, confirm, deny, etc. anything about the caves location. I'm too old & bunged up to go there again but trust me there's no longer anything there of value to a White man anymore. There is a sacred, watched Haataali (medicine Man) burial site nearby that will get you killed for messing w/. There is @ least 1 spot Walz dug gold ore in the Sup's in rose quartz that's been covered. I was told by Apache friends/relatives I was standing on it once. Nope, won't share that location either since it's too close to their Holy Land (I'm Christian but respect their beliefs) & it would only get you in trouble digging there. Truth be told its been so many decades I'd have trouble finding that spot again anyway & my wife & I have plenty to eat. Contrary to common belief traditional Apaches thought using a bit of free gold when things were needed for survival was fine. Greed or materialism will get you killed. I don't care if you believe this story or not but don't bother trying to start an argument, I'll just go away, it's not worth the bother. There's a lot more to GG's life & times & I'll try to get around to the rest later in a different thread if there's interest (his life was a mixture of outlaw work, rescuing a kid named Tom Horn, caching treasure, smuggling, mining, scouting & good family values that sounds like a tall tale but is true).

excellent post....please continue

 

[Injunbro]

A theory that always cracked me up was the one where the Mexicans killed @ the Massacre Grounds were purposely driven north by the attacking Apaches. Anyone whose been in that area & ever been in a dustup knows that kind of herding of people during battle isn't going to happen. They were attacked & driven south (toward home) where many were killed @ the Massacre Grounds... they didn't come from the mine later known as the LDM. Another question often asked is: How did Walz know the older Peraltas in Mexico, rescue them & buy their mine? I've never heard anything to convince me he did. He did know Miguel Peralta (met in Wickenburg) but there were ancestors also named Miguel, possibly they met, maybe not. It's possible Walz found his Superstition mine through Peralta but in my mind more likely through his Apache wife. There was some Spanish activity in the Sup's, there are 3 alabaster crosses overlooking a spring on a mountain on the east end. I always wondered but never found out why... ain't made up my mind if I want to share that location yet or not but there's a WWII military plane wreck nearby (got too close to the ground strafing bighorn sheep for target practice).

 

[Hal Croves]

This chart shows the extended Peralta family, back to Gabriel.
Not the easiest to read but, it confirms some of the connections to Christobal.

http://www.peraltahacienda.org/PH_allalbums/exhibitpages/pdfs/pfamtree.pdf

 

[Hal Croves]

View attachment 1364471

Miguel Peralta

Mexicans in Phoenix
Page 13
Image: Arizona Historical Society



Note: The date of birth is incorrect.
It should read 1838.
​

A Suicide

"Having some business yesterday morning at the room of Mr. Miguel Peralta, who had been the bookkeeper at his store, Mr. A.F. Paredes went to the room of the gentleman, on International street, and was shocked and horrified to find him stretched in death on the floor; a bullet wound in his head and a pistol in his hand with a discharged cartridge told that the fatal wound had been self inflicted. The authorities were notified, and Justice Duffy impaneled a coroner's jury who took the testimony of several who knew of some facts bearing on the case. Mr. Thomas Harrison testified that about three o'clock in the morning he took the deceased (who had been drinking and gambling) to his room. Mr E, J, Pellegrin, in the adjoining room, heard the shot, but thought it a piece of furniture falling. Mr. S.D. Piper, who lives in the vicinity also heard the shot. The two witness agreed that the time was between three and four o'clock. Mr. Paredes introduced a note from the deceased which was found on the table with a Mexican dollar resting upon it which read: "I had the money; I have lost it: good bye".

Deceased was an old and well know citizen of Pima county, having resided many years in Tucson and was also at one time on business at Crittenden. He was a native of Ures, Sonora, but was raised and educated in California."

6 November, 1897 The Oasis

​

View attachment 1364480
​

 

[Hal Croves]

TIRED OF LIFE
An Old Pioneer of Arizona Shoots Himself.

"Miguel Peralta committed suicide at about 4 o'clock yesterday morning in his room on International street. Deceased had been drinking and gambling till about 3:30 o'clock in the morning and had lost some money. He had been out of work too since the failure of Mr. A.F. Parades & Co. and though he seemed despondent at times no one thought he contemplated taking his own life. Mr. Peralta was one of the old pioneers of Arizona and up to 1878 or 79 was one of the biggest merchants in the territory. He owned a big store at Phoenix in 1878 at what is now the Goldman corner and also at the time had branch stores in Wickenberg and Vulture. He was a kind heated man and during his palmy days many a poor prospector was the recipient of favors at his hands. He leaves a wife and several children. His wife resides at Tucson. The funeral took place this morning at 10 o'clock."

6 November, 1897 - The Border Vidette
​

 

[Injunbro]

The history that you are telling should be recorded complete and a copy left with the historical society.
A digital voice recorder is cheap, quick, & easy.
I can lend you one if interested.

I also don't mind you sharing it here thou.

Would be interesting to learn the dates, when Walz (Waltz) and Peralta sold out.
I would also like to plot both locations on a map and share it here if you can help.
I have always been a little skeptical about a Waltz (Walz)/Peralta connection.
But...
If you can establish, with facts, that Jacob knew this Miguel, that would be big.
Bigger still if you knew the genealogy of this particular Miguel Peralta.

• Did Jacob Waltz know Miguel Peralta?
• Who was Miguel Peralta?

If we can resolve the first question, I will share what I have on Miguel.

Very exciting.

Hal, I have a recorder, etc. but no interest in publishing another book (lost my shorts on the 1st one). To answer your question "Did Jacob Waltz know Miguel Peralta?" everyone in a small town knows everyone else, this is still true today. I worked in Wickenburg from 1995 until retiring in 2012 & although the town is much larger now than in the 1800's knew all of the families who've been there any amount of time & most of the newcomers. Of course Walz knew the owner of one of the largest stores (who was also a businessman that prospected, ran cattle, etc.). If you're looking for documentation, that's like looking for photographs of Jesus, George Washington, etc.. just because we know they lived doesn't mean such irrefutable proof exists.
"Who was Miguel Peralta?" I presume you're asking which Miguel Peralta since there were more than 1?
The paperwork where the Valenciana mine sold by Migeul Peralta to George Willing then obtained by J.A. Reavis was one of many documents doctored by Reavis in his land scam. Peralta also had a small grant near Nogales that no one would even acknowledge, much less honor after the Reavis mess (although he had nothing to do w/ Reavis scam). Peralta didn't sell Reavis a grant, he sold a mine claim that was doctored to appear to be something else. Reavis also doctored documents in Mexico & Spain.
I'd be glad to tell you how to find both the Valenciana & Big Reb locations & their later names but no longer live in the area so won't take you there. I don't know who owns the property now or whose controls access (BLM/state/private?).
I also have no intent or way to make any profit from any of this so it's not a business to me, nor have I any intent to drive 5 hours to see it again. I'm just an old man talking of lost treasures, mines, etc. & sharing what I know w/ others for amusement.
PS: There are still Peralta descendants living in New Mexico in the little town named after them & in Albuquerque, they aren't real friendly to inquisitive outsiders looking for family history since no good has ever come from it.

 

[DiggerGal]

There doesn't seem to be a forum for general history so I'll update Great-Grandpa's (referred to as GG from now on) Lost Dutchman encounter here & perhaps tell some more of his escapades in another place. Walz had a campsite directly east of Miguel Peralta's Valenciana Mine, which I found 20 or so years ago following directions from GG's diary. To answer the question that's sure to pop up: No, I don't have GG's diary, one of my cousins does. I'll give directions to the Valenciana if anyone wants to look @ a worked-out mine. In Walz's camp I found a few rusted mining tools that were likely left by a later owner & a very old, worn out Apache style moccasin. Walz & Peralta both sold their claims & went back south where Apache/Yavapai/Western Apache problems were less. Walz left a cache of ore in a cave in the Aqua Fria River canyon which he or someone emptied out later since there's nothing there except a few Indian pottery shards (if anyone wants to make a long, hard, fruitless hike across a steep canyon send me a PM & I'll dive directions. Permission from State, BLM & private ranch is up to you but all must be crossed). Walz had several caches in the Sup's & part of the confusion of his mines location is from him giving directions to caches, not just the mine itself. Another story that gets confused is the story of killing the Mexicans comes directly from the finding (& stealing) of the Constellation Mine North of Wickenburg. Walz may have been part of that, the time frame fits. There's a little @ the Constellation Mine left but nothing of the town site. Soon after Walz was told to leave Wickenburg & his job @ the Vulture Mine - he hadn't been caught high-grading but several friends were & hung. He & Peralta soon left for the Valenciana workings I told about in an earlier post. The ore from the Vulture Mine doesn't match that found after his death (yes, I compared it - it was in a private collection in Phoenix but has moved since). Walz & GG both had Apache wives & the women enjoyed each others company although there was a big difference in age (GG & wife was younger) & visited on occasion. The Apache side of the story is Walz's wife was killed by them for revealing Indian caches in the Sup's one of which was in the Sacred Cave. Before anyone asks, Although I know where the cave is I won't discuss, confirm, deny, etc. anything about the caves location. I'm too old & bunged up to go there again but trust me there's no longer anything there of value to a White man anymore. There is a sacred, watched Haataali (medicine Man) burial site nearby that will get you killed for messing w/. There is @ least 1 spot Walz dug gold ore in the Sup's in rose quartz that's been covered. I was told by Apache friends/relatives I was standing on it once. Nope, won't share that location either since it's too close to their Holy Land (I'm Christian but respect their beliefs) & it would only get you in trouble digging there. Truth be told its been so many decades I'd have trouble finding that spot again anyway & my wife & I have plenty to eat. Contrary to common belief traditional Apaches thought using a bit of free gold when things were needed for survival was fine. Greed or materialism will get you killed. I don't care if you believe this story or not but don't bother trying to start an argument, I'll just go away, it's not worth the bother. There's a lot more to GG's life & times & I'll try to get around to the rest later in a different thread if there's interest (his life was a mixture of outlaw work, rescuing a kid named Tom Horn, caching treasure, smuggling, mining, scouting & good family values that sounds like a tall tale but is true).

Very fascinating story. You should write a book of memoirs! Please continue....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hal Croves]

LOCAL INTELIGENCE

"Jack Swilling called upon us on Saturday and gave us some items concerning the Black canyon,... Mr. S. is putting out a vineyard and opening a farm on the Agua Fria below the mouth of the canyon, and is the proprietor of the Valenciana mine."

26 March, 1875 - Arizona Weekly Miner
​

 

[Injunbro]

Hal, one more time: I have zero interest in another book, it costs a few thousand dollars, little of which can be recouped. As far as history being lost, yes, tons of it is irretrievably lost, re-written & what's kept is mostly propaganda of the current gov't anyway. As far as proof of anything I've written being correct: You could go through the archives I've mentioned if you're truly interested but I really don't care whether you believe it or not. I'm telling what I know for entertainment only; read it, don't read it or learn to whistle the Mongolian National Anthem backwards...

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Gracias Hal, kinda cute, wish our kids were so nationalistic. Don"t even sing our national athem any more for fear of bothering others, sheesh/

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The James Adison Reavis Spanish Land Grant Fraud is a very confusing issue for people to understand, to say the least.

There were actually two separate Spanish Land Grants involved in the fraud.

The first was a legal land grant that Miguel Peralta Sr. (the father of Miguel L. Peralta the Phoenix and Klondike, Az merchant) sold to George Willing on October 20, 1864.

James Reavis and Charles Gitt eventually took that first much smaller land grant and used it to change and enlarge the grant to the enormous grant they eventually tried to claim.

The legal grant that Miguel Peralta Sr. sold George Willing was relatively worthless desert land that ran from a point at the Pima Villages on the Gila River east to not quite Florence, Arizona, south to about where Marana, Arizona is located, west to a point in the desert known as Ventana and finally north to the starting point at the Pima Villages. There were virtually no towns or communities included in this grant but there were a few mines which were producing some good ore.

James Reavis partnered up with George Willing and Charles Gitt and when Willing was murdered Reavis and Gitt concocted the much larger Spanish Land grant.

This Reavis/Gitt land grant was enormous, it ran from a point about 20 miles NW of Phoenix, Arizona, ran east all the way to about Reserve, New Mexico, then south to a point well below Silver City, New Mexico, then west to a point in the desert some 50 miles west of Picacho Peak and finally north to the starting point NW of Phoenix.

This huge grant encompassed over 9,500 square miles and included every major city in Arizona and western New Mexico except for Prescott and Tucson.

Gitt and Reavis were able to pull this off by taking the original (smaller) Peralta land grant and inserting a page into the grant in Mexico City that enlarged the grant considerably.

Miguel L. Peralta the Phoenix merchant was innocent of any wrongdoing in the matter but he and his family suffered greatly at the hands of many who did not understand the fraud case and lumped him in with Reavis and Gitt.
Miguel L. Peralta and his father Miguel Peralta Sr. were never charged with any crime in the James Adison Reavis Spanish Land Grant Fraud.

Below are two photos, the first one is of the original Peralta Spanish Land Grant and the red circles are what Gitt and Reavis added to the grant to legitimize their claim.
And the second photo is the page Reavis inserted into the Peralta grant to enlarge it to the 9,500 square miles he and Gitt eventually claimed. Everything on this page circled in red was written by Reavis and Gitt.
The rest of the Land Grant which had been in the Mexico City archives for over 100 years was not changed.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

The James Adison Reavis Spanish Land Grant Fraud is a very confusing issue for people to understand, to say the least.

There were actually two separate Spanish Land Grants involved in the fraud.

The first was a legal land grant that Miguel Peralta Sr. (the father of Miguel L. Peralta the Phoenix and Klondike, Az merchant) sold to George Willing on October 20, 1864.

James Reavis and Charles Gitt eventually took that first much smaller land grant and used it to change and enlarge the grant to the enormous grant they eventually tried to claim.

The legal grant that Miguel Peralta Sr. sold George Willing was relatively worthless desert land that ran from a point at the Pima Villages on the Gila River east to not quite Florence, Arizona, south to about where Marana, Arizona is located, west to a point in the desert known as Ventana and finally north to the starting point at the Pima Villages. There were virtually no towns or communities included in this grant but there were a few mines which were producing some good ore.

James Reavis partnered up with George Willing and Charles Gitt and when Willing was murdered Reavis and Gitt concocted the much larger Spanish Land grant.

This Reavis/Gitt land grant was enormous, it ran from a point about 20 miles NW of Phoenix, Arizona, ran east all the way to about Reserve, New Mexico, then south to a point well below Silver City, New Mexico, then west to a point in the desert some 50 miles west of Picacho Peak and finally north to the starting point NW of Phoenix.

This huge grant encompassed over 9,500 square miles and included every major city in Arizona and western New Mexico except for Tucson.

Gitt and Reavis were able to pull this off by taking the original (smaller) Peralta land grant and inserting a page into the grant in Mexico City that enlarged the grant considerably.

Miguel L. Peralta the Phoenix merchant was innocent of any wrongdoing in the matter but he and his family suffered greatly at the hands of many who did not understand the fraud case and lumped him in with Reavis and Gitt.
Miguel L. Peralta and his father Miguel Peralta Sr. were never charged with any crime in the James Adison Reavis Spanish Land Grant Fraud.

Below are two photos, the first one is of the original Peralta Spanish Land Grant and the red circles are what Gitt and Reavis added to the grant to legitimize their their claim.
And the second photo is the page Reavis inserted into the Peralta grant to enlarge it to the 9,500 square miles he and Gitt eventually claimed. Everything on this page circled in red was written by Reavis and Gitt.
The rest of the Land Grant which had been in the Mexico City archives for over 100 years was not changed.

Matthew


View attachment 1365162 View attachment 1365163

Matthew,

Good post. Not many people have the background information of true history that you have.

For those interested, this is a really good book on the subject:

James Addison Reaves - AbeBooks

The Peralta Grant- James Addison Reaves and the Barony of Arizona by Donald M. Powell.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro,

Although I do not have much interest in the 'Lost Dutchie' and it could fairly be described as superficial, I am deeply interested in hearing your G-Gramp's meeting(s) with that old redoubtable Apache Geronimo. I take it that if they did not get-on with each other, your G-Grandpa was perhaps a scout during the outbreaks of the 1880s.

I am a true aficionado of all things Chiricahua Apache and their deeply rooted culture, times, hardships and resistance in the American Southwest.

I would be grateful for any snippets you could possibly share.

IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro,

Although I do not have much interest in the 'Lost Dutchie' and it could fairly be described as superficial, I am deeply interested in hearing your G-Gramp's meeting(s) with that old redoubtable Apache Geronimo. I take it that if they did not get-on with each other, your G-Grandpa was perhaps a scout during the outbreaks of the 1880s.

I am a true aficionado of all things Chiricahua Apache and their deeply rooted culture, times, hardships and resistance in the American Southwest.

I would be grateful for any snippets you could possibly share.

IPUK

This is kind of off topic for the Sup's but Geronimo did occasionally go there & had weapon & food caches there. Great Grandpa (GG) known as Will Rice was a scout for about 6 months under General Crook. Most of the time was spent around Fort Whipple, Prescott & Camp Lincoln, Camp Verde (AZ), he scouted on the Battle @ Turret Peak but they did make a campaign down in SE Arizona. They stopped briefly @ Fort Bowie & went down to the Mexican border accomplishing very little except showing their faces to the settlers & giving them the delusion they were protected, then returned to Ft. Whipple. Later after his scouting contract was completed he returned to his family & along w/ his wife, children & a few other relatives were camped below Fort Apache when Geronimo & a few other 'Broncos' dropped in. Geronimo was 100% outlaw & took whatever he could from whoever including women & children, horses, guns, etc... him dropping into camp was not a friendly visit. He recognized GG as a scout & snarled a few words like 'traitor', 'white boys dog' & suddenly stopped when he heard a couple guns cock in the rocks nearby. Realizing GG had posted guards that had him flanked he ended the chat immediately & left. They never met again. GG despised Geronimo because unlike most Apaches he lied (most will simply refuse to discuss a subject instead) & kept the wars stirred up affecting other peaceful Apaches. In Geronimo's defense he was a peaceful Hataali (healer) until his wife, 3 children & mother were murdered in Mexico. His wife was his childhood sweetheart & he never got over it. Later he'd remarry & had 9 wives total, 7 were murdered by Whites or Mexicans, 1 divorced him, 1 outlived him. He had 3 children who survived but disowned a daughter who married a White man & lived somewhere in Mexico. Geronimo had a sweet tooth & often bought sugar in the mercantile in Wilcox, AZ. The mercantile recently closed & is for sale. GG accompanied other campaigns as a scout organized by King Woolsey but these were a civilian group, not military. I'll try to post other stories passed on by family in the correct forum if anyone is interested.