The Pearl Ship

[Oroblanco]

That is a great photo Pegleglooker, would make a great pic to go with an article on this legend.

Oroblanco

 

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[pegleglooker]

OK Oro,
Lets say I thought about writing a article about this subject.... How would someone submit said article for print ? and to whom ? After all I don't think by any means that I am a " good " writer. I just write as if I am talking to a friend. Maybe it is time to let some of this out ( keep the juicy stuff to myself ) and see where it goes. I think in one respect, it would be cool to see on of my article's in print. Let me you if this is the right thing to do.

Thanks guys
PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings mi amigo Pegleglooker,

I would suggest that you write up the article, of course check for mis-spelling and grammar but not to the point of Harvard perfection there - just write it as you would tell it to a good friend and it will come across on a personal level to the readers. I think it would make a great article and even though a number of stories already exist, I don't think anything has been done recently or any that take in all the various legends and aspects. You already write in the best style, that is on a personal level.

As for which magazine to send it to, I don't think Western and Eastern Treasure mag would be interested (different set of priorities) so I would recommend:

Lost Treasure
http://losttreasure.com/guidelines07.cfm(This is their submission guidelines)
you can send your article by email to:
[email protected]

Their speciality is lost treasures - however if they are not interested I would suggest trying:
Gold Prospector Magazine (by regular mail only)
Old West magazine
True West magazine

Good luck buddy I look forward to reading your article in the magazines!
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Hello Oro,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I will put something together and see where it takes me. Maybe i will send the first draft to you and see what you think...

Thankx
PLL

 

[bobinsd]

PLL,

I hate to throw cold water on the ship sighting by de Anza's guide, but there is no mention of this in the original diary, copied below, so I suggest that it is just a "story" created by some investor-hunter with a sharp imagination. Doi you have another credible source? By the way, the actual name was "Anza", not "de Anza", currently widely accepted all over CA.

Bob

Sunday March 6.–To add to our ills, in the morning we learned that our guide had fled, leaving us his poor weapons as signs at the place where he had slept. For this reason, and for the lack of water which we were suffering, I sent six men with a corporal to look for the watering place which our runaway guide had said was nearby. The corporal bore appropriate instructions in case he should find heathen there or in any other place and to report to me whether or not he had found the water.

At two in the afternoon I set forth with all our train toward the west-northwest over the trail of the six explorers. When I had gone about three leagues two soldiers met me and reported for the corporal that they had found a good watering place in the middle of the sierra and near it a heathen Indian boy.

Guided by these two soldiers we arrived at nightfall at the place where the water was, distant from the preceding one a little more than four leagues. Immediately the corporal, who was here, told me that soon after he had seized the Indian boy mentioned an older Indian came down with great timidity and gave him to understand that the boy was his son, and that he should be given up to him. To this the corporal replied that they must not run away, because he would do them no harm, but in spite of this they insisted on leaving, which they were permitted to do after they had been regaled, in keeping with my orders, for I have always impressed upon the minds of all the soldiers with me that they must not use force upon any heathen, even in minor matters, except in cases of extreme necessity, in order that we may not acquire a bad name at first sight.

This watering place I gave the name of Santo Thomás. [Footnote 98] Besides five small springs of bitter water which are here, there is one of very sweet and clear water, and there is also some grass but of bad quality. It is situated in a sierra which we infer must be one of those which form the California chain.–From Tubac to Santo Thomas, 192 leagues.

 

[pegleglooker]

Hello Bobinsd,
I agree with you that there are " spirited " writers out there. However I do try to get as accurate a site as I can for info. The site I used for the above quote is from the University of Oregon. On their site they have diary entry's translated to English or in Spanish. They also have diaries from Font, Graces, Constan so, Mo raga as well as Anzac. The also have a letter from Anzac to Bacall. The URL is http://Anzac.Oregon.Edi/siteindex.HTML . I would like to encourage ANY conversations on anything that I have printed here. I really try to check out as much as I can. However, it is ALWAYS better to have a different look just to either make sure what you see is really there or to see something you have missed. We all know that sometimes even a small lead can turn into something HUGE !!! Bobinsd if you know of something and are willing to quote a source I am all ears my man. I am not trying to be a " expert " in this, I am simply learning just as much as the next guy.

PLL

 

[bobinsd]

PLL,

Your site address is incorrect. It should be http://anza.uoregon.edu/ . I have read the entire site and can not find the information your are quoting.

Bob

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey Bobinsd,
Thanks for the correction on the site but my url does show http://anza.uoregon.edu/siteindex.html . Yes University of Oregon is the main site. If you look at the 4Th name down that will be Anza and to the right it has 2 subjects to click on one is ( English ) and the 2ND is ( calender index ). Click on the calender index and then click on March 6Th. I copied the text into this site. From what I read this has been translated into English. The column to the right of this is the Spanish text. However my Spanish is horrible. I just tried the site as I wrote it here and it went in fine... I hope this works for you...

PLL

 

[bobinsd]

That's exactly what I copied to you, and there is NO MENTION of a ship anywhere. If you are going to make this story stick, it's got to be MORE than a story from someone's imagination.

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey Bobinsd,
There will not be a mention of a ship. In the story, Anza loses a guide somewhere in the desert area. This just confirmed that a guide was lost. Anza would not have known of the ship. Because according to the story when the guide found the ship and pearls he left the expedition immediately. In other words, he never went back to Anza to say he's leaving.. He just took the loot and left... The diary simply confirms that a guide did leave ( either by his own or ... )from the expedition. It does not confirm a ship sighting. I didn't expect it to. I was simply trying to confirm that a guide did leave from Anza somewhere close to where I thing it is.. That's all. If I checked the Anza diary and the was no mention of a guide leaving in this area, then I would think the story is false. If you misunderstood what I meant then I'm sorry to mislead you. It was simply to let others know that I was just confirming or not confirming that a guide left Anza. If he did, then where exactly on the desert was Anza ? And where would the guide have been ?? Story goes that he was to the right of Anza. That should put him NE of the New river. If this is true, then it's another clue that fits my theory. I hope this explains what I meant a little better.

PLL

 

[Isayhello2u]

hey pegleg chicking out back stories

talking about checking out back stories one of the ship legends (Al masters version?) says that a mast was found by the James expedition but was unclear about who "James" was. I think i have determined which expedition was meant
but so far have found no reference to the expedition seeing any odd piece of wood out there.

James I think was leader of what was also known as the Chapman Expedition since Chapman (of San Francisco, Ca. ) financed his exploration of the desert.
(New York times august 18 1873 the Colorado valley; the attempt to flood the desert interesting explorations by the Chapman expedition)

 

[pegleglooker]

Remember there was a George Wharton James as well who wrote the book " Wonders of the Colorado Desert " ( 1906 ). GREAT book.... or books... ( 2 volume set ). There is a awesome map inside. He would have crossed the desert a little later than the James you suggest.
One of the things that I also found in the Anza diaries, is a statement from Anza, quoting how he saw small pools of water with " ocean fish ". He made a point to say that they were not fish from lakes or ponds but ocean fish. So then I wonder, how long was water there, and does that mean that the Iturbe story has more meat ? I mean after all the 1532 story would be too long, no ?? However if there was " almost " enough water for a Caravelle type ship, how long would it take to dry up ?? About 150 years ? Or enough that when Anza came thru there was still small pools of water.. with " ocean fish " ? Then again was there a change in the Colorado river flow from SE to NW or did it switch from time to time ?? The " New river " throws me off a little too. I read that it began in the 1850's or so. Yet I have come across people talking about it earlier than that.. So again, was this something that filled and emptied time and time again ?? and if there was a ship would this cause it to sink deeper in the sandy bottom ?? Making it harder to locate ?? This is why right now I'm stuck on this one version of the story.. But there are times when I wonder if it's all a little too north.. I mean Volcano lake and maybe laguna Salada might be a more logical place.. The pixs that I posted earlier are from a boat that was found in the Laguna Salada.
Recently I have been looking at the geological angle to this and have found some great insights. This website helps and yet begins a new set of questions: http://fire.biol.wwu.edu/trent/alles/ColoradoRiver.html
Some of us will find it useful and some of us will be caught saying " man this is too much to read... nice pixs though " take a look and see if you can answer any questions about the direction the water had in the 16 or 1700's. Not that this means a ton, but I would like to know as much as possible. I mean if I knew where the watercourse was, then I should be able to determine approximately where would I ( as the captain of the ship ) have sailed. Would I get as close to the south as I can get or was I still looking for pearls and such ?? Did i still believe there was a northern route ? I mean as long as I can get the most logical look at what the place looked like maybe some of the pieces come together... Let me know what ya all think... and ya I know I'm going " nuts " LOL....

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Pegleglooker,

I have read Anza's journal (a while ago) and missed that mention of seeing ocean fish in pools of water - quite an intriguing little statement wouldn't you say? Was he simply mistaken? Were they truly salt water fish? Were they fish that are similar to salt water varieties but not exactly?

The Salton Sink has (supposedly) flooded and dried up repeatedly over the millenia, including within the correct time frames according to at least one study. I think that trying to work out just where Iturbe would have sailed before running aground is actually the best way to try to locate the ship, or rather the remains of the ship. If only we had a clue what the "draft" of his ship was, it might be possible to work with topographic maps and follow the contour lines, using the idea that the inland lake had only recently receded enough to block a return voyage down the Colorado river.

On the other hand, it is also quite possible that Iturbe would not have run it aground at the point closest to the Colorado river but in some side canyon or recessed area where the ship might not be instantly visible to anyone passing by - after all it did still contain quite a treasure and he did not wish it to be found by someone passing by, and they already had problems with Dutch and English pirates so it makes sense that he would not have taken too many chances in hiding the ship.

Just my spin on the idea, I hope you find the treasures that you seek!

Oroblanco

 

[Isayhello2u]

a caravel was a very shallow drafted type of vessel,
the bottom would have been less than eight feet under the water. which is why they were an ideal vessel to explore coastlines and rivers.

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey Guys,
To me it does make a whole lot of sense to hide the ship in a canyon of some kind. Maybe that adds to the Butcherknife Ike story from Adelaide Arnold. I think he was somewhere around Split Mt. or Coyote Canyon at the time. But I think Iturbe simply unexpectedly ran aground while looking for a way out. That is why this Jacobson angle has some meat to it. I just wish I had a copy of the report or court proceedings that was filed with Spain after he was rescued. How does one get a copy of this report?? Anyone know ?? Would anybody in the states have access to this ?? It would probably shed some light on a some of this.
Interesting only needed 8ft of water to float.... That I would think by ships standard is quite low. I wonder just how much cargo could they carry. Look guys we all know that there are a slew of stories on this subject and I do think it's there... somewhere. It just kills me that I can't get to where I want to go ( no 4x4 ). I mean you can google till you're a 100 and still not be any closer.... I know I need to put foot to sand I just don't have a way to do that yet and it's driving me NUTS!!!!!!

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Pegleglooker and everyone,

Pegleglooker wrote:

It just kills me that I can't get to where I want to go ( no 4x4 ).

Ever think about getting a horse or riding mule? It beats walking and is "4WD" in fact you can go places NO wheeled vehicle could ever dream of. Just a thought, as it is the way I would search - not afoot. Besides, that little bit of height advantage you gain while sitting on a horse actually helps you see farther - might be just the 'edge' needed to help find that ship.

If Iturbe was looking for a way out when he ran aground, accidentally, then it stands to reason the site could be really anywhere around the rim of what was the lake. According to Iturbe they sailed north quite a way, looking for the route around the "island" of California so that covers a LOT of ground.

Good luck buddy I hope you will keep us posted when you find that ship load of pearls!

Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Hello Oro,
Thought you might find this a little interesting:
from Anza's diary dated Mar 5 1774

On doubling the sand dune mentioned one comes out to an estuary of the sea. At least we inferred that it must be an estuary, because we found stranded an infinite number of fish of kind and size appropriate to the sea and not to lakes and rivers, however large they may be. Whether or not this lake is of live water I am not able to say with certainty, but I do know that it is water depending upon the Gulf, from which it must be distant about thirty leagues, if not more. This estuary is the one which appeared to Father Garcés two years ago to be the Rio Amarillo which he mentions or cites in his diaries, because it did not occur to him to test what it really was, for he did not taste the water.

At least to me, he tells of finding fish from this timeframe. Maybe I'm pushing the line a bit.... What's your take on it

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Pegleglooker for that extract - it is another clue that there WAS a flood in the Salton Sink, as the geologists have insisted. We have to ask the skeptic, "Why would Anza have made up this statement?" when it served no purpose, other than to lend credence to the report of Iturbe? I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that ship exists, at least some part of it still waiting for someone to find it and prove the legends true!

Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Your welcome Mr Oro....
I like to look at how sometimes the history and treasure books connect. Sometimes it's small and others I hope it can be HUGE!!!!... although I haven't seen the other yet... still hoping though. I really just wanted to find out if Anza did have a guide that left him and connect some dots for my own mind. Remember, the date I had for the guide leaving was the next day mar 6 1774. I just wish, I could pin down a little closer where Anza was on this day. In order for my theory to work the guide has to be no more than 20 miles away. Remember also that the guide was in front of Anza as he travelled. My estimate is that Anza found him gone just before San Sebastian ( that would make the guide maybe 1-2 Leagues NW ) and that would fit with where I think the ship is...
I have been putting some more thought into the " hidden canyon " and just can't make the connection. I mean in the area there are no canyons and besides most of them are at a higher elevation and if water was residing.... I think he simply ran aground. Then the Indian legend of the " white bird " fits too... I heard that there is a cave in Davies Valley that has pictographs of this... I found some photo's of some of these but could not make out a ship in any of them... Anyone have any idea's ??

PLL

 

[tesoro dog]

Hello Folks!!!

Pegleglooker Hi. I think if the Santa Ana winds were blowing he might have sought shelter around by the Superstitions Mtns. Just a thought!!

Tony
You know I talked to an Oldtimer once about Peglegs gold and he thought they were blacknuggets from two brothers hesding back to mexico from motherlode country. one brother went to frisco on business the other headed south with 6 or 7 burros. he never arrived in mexico and it was thought the burros wandered around the salton sink and points east south and west and as the saddle bags rotted out they dropped blacknuggets in scattered locations. Just another thought!!

Good Luck !!!