The Peralta-Fish Map

[Hillbilly Prince]

HBP

IMO the PF map is a generic map which is for the west side of the Superstitions, but not of little value. Is a very cunning made map which has two different codes for two different purposes. Both codes are for angles that should be applied in regards to have the real image of the map.
The first code is for the landmarks in the map ( the three Xs above the word Arrastra ) which says how we have to turn them 30 degrees to the left to have the real image of the region ( also the words which are diagonally written on the map , to go horizontally like the other words ).
The second code is for the mines. What is important to know, is how every code will have to be applied separatelly and not together, like you have two identical maps , one for the landmarks and another for the mines.

That is interesting. Be pretty darn clever as well. Just to be clear this is the Lnda Peralta map?

 

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[markmar]

That is interesting. Be pretty darn clever as well. Just to be clear this is the Lnda Peralta map?

I believe at the start of this thread was stated the map was given/sold to Frank Fish by a guy Pedro ( Pete) Peralta.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

I believe at the start of this thread was stated the map was given/sold to Frank Fish by a guy Pedro ( Pete) Peralta.

Oh, I see. In some places this map is called the Linda Peralta map. Same map Hal is discussing.

 

[gollum]

Linda Peralta is a member of the Peralta Family who told her family history to Tom Glover. The Peralta-Fish Map came from Mexico many years before Linda was born. The website you referenced is okay for a brief bit of knowledge, but get the book "Dead Men do Tell Tales". Schaefer goes into much more detail about everything in it. She got the story directly from Fish as they were close friends.

I would have to reread Tom's Book, but if Linda were the source of any Peralta Map, it would probably be Frank Peralta's Copy of the Fish Map.

Mike

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Linda Peralta is a member of the Peralta Family who told her family history to Tom Glover. The Peralta-Fish Map came from Mexico many years before Linda was born. The website you referenced is okay for a brief bit of knowledge, but get the book "Dead Men do Tell Tales". Schaefer goes into much more detail about everything in it. She got the story directly from Fish as they were close friends.

I would have to reread Tom's Book, but if Linda were the source of any Peralta Map, it would probably be Frank Peralta's Copy of the Fish Map.

Mike

Thanks for the information. I'll look for the book.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

I'll ask here. Does compass deviation play a part in correct reading of any of these maps?

 

[Blindbowman]

I'll ask here. Does compass deviation play a part in correct reading of any of these maps?

sorry but compass deviation is when your compass is in error , I think you mean magnetic deviation and it was not widely known or used before the 1900's ...

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

sorry but compass deviation is when your compass is in error , I think you mean magnetic deviation and it was not widely known or used before the 1900's ...

You are right. Just recently saw an old post where some clues didn't line up. This quote : "The magnetic deviation was about 7 to 8 degrees in 1861. The deviation now is about 2."
Probably not of great importance on the hand drawn maps unless there were specific directions.

 

[Oroblanco]

On the character of people whom are dead and can't defend themselves today - the Phoenix city police were fairly convinced that Adolph Ruth was murdered by the two men he had hired to pack him into the Superstitions. The girlfriend of one of the men informed the city police, and that man later lost the map in court.

Jacob Waltz is rather a mystery. He is accused of murdering a number of men - yet also used his own personal 'stash' of gold to help out his friends Julia and Reiney, hardly the action you would expect from a greedy gold-grubbing murderer. It just doesn't fit. He certainly could be kind to his friends, and yet others who met him in life gave the impression that Waltz was definitely not someone to fool with. Plus there is the only actual interaction with a Peralta that IS documented with Waltz, the murder of a Mexican at the home of Jacob Waltz. Waltz told the sheriff that he loaned his own shotgun to one of the Mexicans, who proceeded to shoot the other one dead. Apparently that story was good enough for the sheriff at the time.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

On the character of people whom are dead and can't defend themselves today - the Phoenix city police were fairly convinced that Adolph Ruth was murdered by the two men he had hired to pack him into the Superstitions. The girlfriend of one of the men informed the city police, and that man later lost the map in court.

Jacob Waltz is rather a mystery. He is accused of murdering a number of men - yet also used his own personal 'stash' of gold to help out his friends Julia and Reiney, hardly the action you would expect from a greedy gold-grubbing murderer. It just doesn't fit. He certainly could be kind to his friends, and yet others who met him in life gave the impression that Waltz was definitely not someone to fool with. Plus there is the only actual interaction with a Peralta that IS documented with Waltz, the murder of a Mexican at the home of Jacob Waltz. Waltz told the sheriff that he loaned his own shotgun to one of the Mexicans, who proceeded to shoot the other one dead. Apparently that story was good enough for the sheriff at the time.

What are your sources for your info about Jacob? If you don't mind. I wouldn't see a contradiction in a man being generous, and also being a fellow you better not cross. Not saying he would murder for greed. If he is accused of murdering a few people, you know in those times justice was pretty swift and didn't require a lot of proof.
Frank Fish is a fascinating character. Something made him always go armed. My impression so far is that he was a fellow who loved life and adventure. Haven't read anything yet to make me think he killed anyone.
Right now I think somewhere along the way he had a disagreement with someone who held a grudge.

 

[azdave35]

What are your sources for your info about Jacob? If you don't mind. I wouldn't see a contradiction in a man being generous, and also being a fellow you better not cross. Not saying he would murder for greed. If he is accused of murdering a few people, you know in those times justice was pretty swift and didn't require a lot of proof.
Frank Fish is a fascinating character. Something made him always go armed. My impression so far is that he was a fellow who loved life and adventure. Haven't read anything yet to make me think he killed anyone.
Right now I think somewhere along the way he had a disagreement with someone who held a grudge.

everyone around here goes armed out in the hills...you'd be stupid not to

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

everyone around here goes armed out in the hills...you'd be stupid not to

No doubt. And now you need to be armed just about everywhere.

 

[coazon de oro]

On the character of people whom are dead and can't defend themselves today - the Phoenix city police were fairly convinced that Adolph Ruth was murdered by the two men he had hired to pack him into the Superstitions. The girlfriend of one of the men informed the city police, and that man later lost the map in court.

Jacob Waltz is rather a mystery. He is accused of murdering a number of men - yet also used his own personal 'stash' of gold to help out his friends Julia and Reiney, hardly the action you would expect from a greedy gold-grubbing murderer. It just doesn't fit. He certainly could be kind to his friends, and yet others who met him in life gave the impression that Waltz was definitely not someone to fool with. Plus there is the only actual interaction with a Peralta that IS documented with Waltz, the murder of a Mexican at the home of Jacob Waltz. Waltz told the sheriff that he loaned his own shotgun to one of the Mexicans, who proceeded to shoot the other one dead. Apparently that story was good enough for the sheriff at the time.

Howdy Roy,

I don't remember reading anywhere about someone accusing Jacob Waltz of murdering a number of men. All I remember is Waltz confessing to murdering a number of men as he lay on his deathbed.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

El guijo

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

A city in Cordoba, Spain. Nope. Gravel. Granite chips.
Shingle. Shaft of wheel.

 

[sdcfia]

El guijo


View attachment 1757739

 

[Oroblanco]

Hillbilly Prince wrote

What are your sources for your info about Jacob? If you don't mind. I wouldn't see a contradiction in a man being generous, and also being a fellow you better not cross. Not saying he would murder for greed. If he is accused of murdering a few people, you know in those times justice was pretty swift and didn't require a lot of proof.

Well that would take a lot of typing, as I have been at this rather a long while. For starters you could try the Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin, The Holmes Manuscript by Dr Thomas Glover, and maybe also the two compilations of numerous treasure legends by John Mitchell, Lost Mines of the Southwest and Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the Southwest. Not a lot of info can be gleaned from the census records and Great Register of Arizona but the tidbits help pin dates and locations, and some info is found in the old newspaper archives although Waltz managed to remain out of the spotlight to a large degree even when a murder was committed at his own home. If you can visit Arizona I would also recommend reading the Pioneer Interviews, which were done by unemployed writers during the great depression, by visiting the old folks homes. The version of Jacob Waltz from the old timers in the interviews is not very different from the other sources, but the lost mine is very different.

Hillbilly Prince also wrote

Frank Fish is a fascinating character. Something made him always go armed. My impression so far is that he was a fellow who loved life and adventure. Haven't read anything yet to make me think he killed anyone.
Right now I think somewhere along the way he had a disagreement with someone who held a grudge.

Agree with what Dave wrote - any treasure hunter should always be armed. There is an old saying, when you are digging up treasure you never know who is going to show up to "help".

Homar wrote

Howdy Roy,

I don't remember reading anywhere about someone accusing Jacob Waltz of murdering a number of men. All I remember is Waltz confessing to murdering a number of men as he lay on his deathbed.

Homar

The Holmes manuscript has Dick talking to someone else whom is afraid of Waltz's murderous habits, but mainly the accusations of Waltz being a serial killer are modern people like here on T-net.


PS to Dave See what I mean about people wanting to know what books I got the info from? (haha) At times I wonder if I said the sky is blue, would someone demand to know what book I got that info from!

 

[azdave35]

Hillbilly Prince wrote



Well that would take a lot of typing, as I have been at this rather a long while. For starters you could try the Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin, The Holmes Manuscript by Dr Thomas Glover, and maybe also the two compilations of numerous treasure legends by John Mitchell, Lost Mines of the Southwest and Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the Southwest. Not a lot of info can be gleaned from the census records and Great Register of Arizona but the tidbits help pin dates and locations, and some info is found in the old newspaper archives although Waltz managed to remain out of the spotlight to a large degree even when a murder was committed at his own home. If you can visit Arizona I would also recommend reading the Pioneer Interviews, which were done by unemployed writers during the great depression, by visiting the old folks homes. The version of Jacob Waltz from the old timers in the interviews is not very different from the other sources, but the lost mine is very different.

Hillbilly Prince also wrote



Agree with what Dave wrote - any treasure hunter should always be armed. There is an old saying, when you are digging up treasure you never know who is going to show up to "help".

Homar wrote



The Holmes manuscript has Dick talking to someone else whom is afraid of Waltz's murderous habits, but mainly the accusations of Waltz being a serial killer are modern people like here on T-net.


PS to Dave See what I mean about people wanting to know what books I got the info from? (haha) At times I wonder if I said the sky is blue, would someone demand to know what book I got that info from!

if every newbie that came on here would go buy every book on the ldm...then read them..then go to feldmans old forum and read every post in it...then they would know as much as any of us know....might save them some time and trouble..just sayin

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Hillbilly Prince wrote



Well that would take a lot of typing, as I have been at this rather a long while. For starters you could try the Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin, The Holmes Manuscript by Dr Thomas Glover, and maybe also the two compilations of numerous treasure legends by John Mitchell, Lost Mines of the Southwest and Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the Southwest. Not a lot of info can be gleaned from the census records and Great Register of Arizona but the tidbits help pin dates and locations, and some info is found in the old newspaper archives although Waltz managed to remain out of the spotlight to a large degree even when a murder was committed at his own home. If you can visit Arizona I would also recommend reading the Pioneer Interviews, which were done by unemployed writers during the great depression, by visiting the old folks homes. The version of Jacob Waltz from the old timers in the interviews is not very different from the other sources, but the lost mine is very different.

Hillbilly Prince also wrote



Agree with what Dave wrote - any treasure hunter should always be armed. There is an old saying, when you are digging up treasure you never know who is going to show up to "help".

Homar wrote



The Holmes manuscript has Dick talking to someone else whom is afraid of Waltz's murderous habits, but mainly the accusations of Waltz being a serial killer are modern people like here on T-net.


PS to Dave See what I mean about people wanting to know what books I got the info from? (haha) At times I wonder if I said the sky is blue, would someone demand to know what book I got that info from!

The reason I asked is because I don't know what to read. There are about 7462 books out there about the the LDM. Just my wild guess. And then the web sites... But I am not asking because I suspect you. Thanks for taking the time to list some things
From what I have read Frank Fish seemed more paranoid than usual.
Can you imagine if you are out in the wilderness with a couple of guys, and gain entry to a hidden mine to discover heaps of gold bars. Never mind others showing up-I think you are going to wonder how well do you really know your friends
I would ask you for the source for your "sky is blue" theory but I guess I can dig that up for myself

 

[coazon de oro]

Hillbilly Prince wrote



Well that would take a lot of typing, as I have been at this rather a long while. For starters you could try the Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin, The Holmes Manuscript by Dr Thomas Glover, and maybe also the two compilations of numerous treasure legends by John Mitchell, Lost Mines of the Southwest and Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the Southwest. Not a lot of info can be gleaned from the census records and Great Register of Arizona but the tidbits help pin dates and locations, and some info is found in the old newspaper archives although Waltz managed to remain out of the spotlight to a large degree even when a murder was committed at his own home. If you can visit Arizona I would also recommend reading the Pioneer Interviews, which were done by unemployed writers during the great depression, by visiting the old folks homes. The version of Jacob Waltz from the old timers in the interviews is not very different from the other sources, but the lost mine is very different.

Hillbilly Prince also wrote



Agree with what Dave wrote - any treasure hunter should always be armed. There is an old saying, when you are digging up treasure you never know who is going to show up to "help".

Homar wrote



The Holmes manuscript has Dick talking to someone else whom is afraid of Waltz's murderous habits, but mainly the accusations of Waltz being a serial killer are modern people like here on T-net.


PS to Dave See what I mean about people wanting to know what books I got the info from? (haha) At times I wonder if I said the sky is blue, would someone demand to know what book I got that info from!

Howdy Roy,

I rest my case, there is no publication where those who knew Jacob Waltz accused him of murder. The Holmes Manuscript has Waltz talking, and confessing to Holmes, and Roberts. It is said that Dick Holmes went to Hidden Water, and confirmed one of those murders.
The reason many ask you where you read something, is mainly because you have a habit of twisting what was written, which is very clear on your response to my post. It is not an accusation when there is a confession.

Homar