The Peralta Stones

[Oroblanco]

HOLA Mike (and everyone)
As you are speculating, I will present another speculation which could explain why stone for the maps, and why they were "dumped" along the trail instead of at the last treasure site.

They chose stone for the maps as it is cheap and durable, and could be left buried in the ground without much danger of it rotting or otherwise decomposing. I still think paper or leather would have been much better on several grounds, but perhaps the person making the maps didn't have any?

So a party made the stone maps (from material which came quite some distance away) and was using them to find their way to the treasures when they were sudenly attacked by Indios - then either in the excitement of the fray, with the mules bucking and becoming frightened causing the stone maps to be lost from their packs, or later after the Indios had either killed all of the party or scattered them, the same Indios then find the stone maps in the packs on the mules and see no use for them so dump them on the spot. Alternatively, the mule carrying the stones breaks loose during the attack, and runs away (a frightened horse or mule can be extremely hard to hold on to) only to shake the pack loose later on, perhaps days later. This scenario would mean that it is likely the search party did not succeed in finding the treasures and were either killed or ran back to Mexico.

All of this is pure speculation of course as we have no evidence to support it, not even an old rotted mule pack saddle found nearby which would have helped a great deal. I don't think my scenario presented above is correct, or Tumlinson ought to have found at least some treasures.

Oroblanco

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy and Mike,

I have always thought that the Stone Maps, assuming they are authentic, were never meant to be moved from the place where they were found.

Whoever created them, safeguarded the mines/treasure by only carrying a paper map showing where the tablets were buried. Since they have been difficult (for some) to decipher, that (possible) plan seems to have worked well.

On the other hand, if they had paper maps they could be destroyed by fire, Apache, stolen or even lost. They would have left trail signs, known only to them, to point out the location of the Stone Maps, once you were close.

In other words, they left a hard to find, indestructible waybill. One set of instructions to the location of the Stone Maps, which showed multiple locations, might be much simpler than trying to describe or remember all of the points on the maps.

I believe that makes, at least, as much sense as Jesuits, or any other Spaniards, using a set of secret symbols and markers to map out their mines/treasures. Coded messages from the King of Spain, at that time, were a total joke. Everyone was reading them with little effort.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill96,

You asked: "CJ, you seemed to state pretty clearly that you believe the stones were created in the late 40's. Do you dought Tumlinsons's story of finding them in 1949 ? This would seem to be just after they were created."

I do doubt that story. It seems more likely that the Stone Maps were purchased by Tumlinson's father, who believed them to be authentic treasure maps. Why the story?.......I have no idea, other than a plan for future profits from the maps. You have the pamphlet as well as the Time Life article, and probably others.

I also don't believe the Priest/Horse "Map" was any part of the Stone Maps as there were no early pictures of them, that only came later. I believe they were created to confuse and mislead. It seems likely that they were created by Ted DeGrazia, with the help and knowledge of local Dutch Hunters. He may have also been the original source for the trail maps, but that seems less certain.

The Stone Maps take you over the lofty ridge, that is the main mountain and drop you down into West Boulder Canyon. On the way, you will pass by Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars. On the west side of West Boulder, towards the top, you will find another cave/mine, which has been sealed. It is also marked on the Stone Maps.

Because of the people who associated with Ted DeGrazia, including the LaFrance family, the ties seem very obvious with the maps. Ted was also friends with Chuck and Peggy Aylor. That would seem of no consequence, unless you have read Tom Kollenborn's "A Ride Through Time".

In it, he writes about Chuck's great love for Shakespeare and how he would often break out with passages from the man's work. Tom mentions that this was his favorite passage:

"Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me. You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass; and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it speak. '..Do you think I am easier to be played on than a pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, you cannot play upon me. "
Hamlet. Scene II ~ W.Shakespeare

Perhaps a coincidence, but added to the other things I have found, it all makes a convincing picture. The maps were made by someone who had spent many years in the Superstitions, and that describes Chuck Aylor pretty well. Assistant to the artist?

I will add to the evidence over the next several days.

Just for the record, much of what I write concerning the Stone Maps is simply opinion.......based on 40+ years of research and boots on the ground. What is fact, is how the maps relate to the topography of the mountains. It's as I have laid it out, to the exclusion of any other place.......period!

Take care,

Joe

 

[BILL96]

CJ,
I love shakesspeare! and that is an interesting connection. Are you suggesting that the stones may have been purchased by the "father" of Travis Tumblison? and Travis never dug them up but made up the story to cover up the purchase?, do I understand this correctly? I would be in complete agreement about the Horse/Priest map, but created to confuse and mislead who?why? I have always wanted o know more about Ted De Grazia, this was not all just to do with his "buried paintings" was it? it had to be much,much more.
I cannot be convinced that someone was lugging around these heavy stone maps looking for buried treasure. It would be like me dragging around a VW because someone had scratched a map on the hood. I would COPY it onto a piece of paper and leave the VW at home, who in their right mind carries around a hundred pound map unless they were moving it from one storage spot to another and maybe got interupted and had to bury them.
I live a few miles down from Vallecito, beautiful country.
Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

Pretty much in agreement with you here. They were not meant to be moved around.

Too many people were seeing the original trail maps, and eventually the entire world. That covers quite a few Dutch Hunters. Waltz's followers are world wide.

There is quite a bit of information out there about Ted DeGrazia. I have a signed copy of his mistress's book about Ted. Gives you a lot of insight into the man. Once you see the connections he had with people who claimed to ride with Pancho Villa, it opens up another world of speculation about Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars.

There are many things that tie DeGrazia into the Horse/Priest map, not the least of which is his name carved into the rock. Circumstantial, but just another log on the fire. Hard to find a single Stone Map fan who can bring themselves to look into that fire.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Twisted Fork]

The stone tablets were buried shallow in the hottest part of the desert. Nobody can date them. Screw science.

They are an infield post office box or they were and the original carver was the King of Spain's most gifted witching Jesuit Monk. That's a self portrait of him on the stone. Pedro Peralta added his name as graffiti years later. They cover the entire Western United States through the gold districts; look on the topo of the West and mark every major mother lode. Everywhere gold visible to the naked eye could be seen in those days. There is one site in particular in this entire region referred to as the "Heart"; It is the richest place of them all. The tip of the "Witch's Hat" is "Don's or "Kings" peak Utah, and the southern border is Des Buttes Arizona where the graphical features of this big man the "Don" refers to his "Two Boots". Ever seen a large painting of a Don being followed by little men in sack cloth, peons as tall as his boots? Knife to heart means that it is so rich at the heart zone mine, that you can carve it out with a knife. Each Site across the West has some resemblance to each other one from the next as nature repeats herself on unlimited scales wherever pure gold exists. The marker sets you may locate at each site, are instructions in how to find the gold in and around the next neighboring mountain as all of the sites are chained together. The markers read the same wherever you go according to the Early Big Hat Jesuit Mason's Code of Triangulation. A knowing soul would use sign to find the tablets and from there use his chart compass to make himself a set of scale paper maps from the stones. Thus many paper maps leading to the same mines. A knowing soul could also make a paper map from any set of mine site makers and use it to back track back to the location of the tablets at their burial site. The witch faces east. The mine refered to as the "Heart" is where the stones were originally carved; not where they were buried. It fits like tracing paper in every phase and scale. All of the other mine sites along the chain in any direction are a reflection N, S, E, W of the heart. The Dutchman ain't nothing to brag about by early Jesuit standards. Those crafty boys had more gold than they knew what to do with and spent most of their time looking for new sites while crews followed behind hiding the others down the trail. As you well know; it is a perfect system yes?

 

[ghostdog]

I would like to add my 2 cents to this thread, I have a map titled Pima Land, and the Legand shows Spanish towns,Missions, Presidio,Indian villages,Vistia,Watering places,Ruins,and Places. Map dates run from 1687 to 1711. My "guess" is where the Peralta stones were found was at one time 1 of the legand places listed on the map. Map shows Tayopa spelled as Provincia de Topia,and Sinola as Cinaloa. I have other imfo on the so called golden statue, but need to do retro research again before posting it.
Just adding to this fray as my time permits.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

Very interesting take on the Stone Map story.

Back to my original question, which you never answered. Your story about George Adams finding a sandbar packed with gold....and eventually taking an Apache arrow for his troubles. As I mentioned, I know something about your familie's history and have no doubts about your own knowledge of their story.

My question remains: Why didn't Emma Adams put a single word of your story in her fine memorial book to George Mason Adams and Martha Louise Devey Adams? It tells the family history in great detail and with all of the excitement and color of that era. The story you have told us here would have been a wonderful addition to her book.

There is no plausible reason for leaving that story out, just as it makes perfect sense that you would tell it here. It would be enlightening to hear some explanation of why the story was "a closely guarded secret". Since Joe and Martha told the family the story, why doesn't Emma mention it in her book?

In any case, the story is a great one but bears no resemblance to the original written by Richard Patterson and first published in the Socorro Chieftain in 1876. It was published again, as a booklet, in the 20s. I doubt either of those can be found today but John D. Mitchell put the story in his "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest" in 1933.

J. Frank Dobie published the story around 1939, in "Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver". That book was originally copyrighted in 1928. My own copy is a first edition from 1939 and is signed by Dobie. The story has morphed all over the place since the first published account in 1876, but yours might just be the real thing. Arizona is one of the "new" stories.

The original tale places the date of the discovery as 1864. Four men survived that find, one of them being Ed Adams. I believe George Adams would have been eight years old at that time.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

Such a map might refer to early Santa Fe region and beyond. Many of these early maps appear to focus on certain areas, but in reality cover large territories by a few know regular water sources rather than settlements. Not to pry, but is the map available as published or otherwise?

 

[Twisted Fork]

Cactus Jumper,

Very good questions indeed. I remember the same conflicts in my studies and knowing how legends can become murky with time have more or less accepted the family version based on hunts we made together back in the 1980's. Most all of the old folks in the family have passed now and It would appear that the locations of certain Spanish markers are know to only a few of us now. The last time I visited the region was back in 1986 at a time when my personal understanding of the Mason's system was still in it's infancy. Since that time I have learned a great deal more here in Utah along some of the main mineral belts. Their marker grouping is the key and is the same on every gold bearing mountain they set monuments upon. One has to wonder why such a story has been left out if known about of course and my only conclusion to this would rest on a couple of different angles. The first being that Adams knew that if his family had any idea of his find, some of his cherished nephews would soon be on the trail into Apache territory and more than likely never be heard of again. Their mothers and immediate families would never forgive him of this if it happened. The second and just as likely reason being that they were all Mormons. Upon settling in the Utah territory, the Mormon leaders frowned heavily on any of the church members leaving the farm to look for treasure. They expected their sons to marry young and to carry on the tradition of the elders as priests and fathers of large families. Of course time proved that Brigam Young was a greedy half cocked old --deleted-- who premeditatedly poisoned the Ute Indians with booze made from rotted trash and went back on every agreement he ever made with them. He really wanted all of the Spanish/Ute gold and real estate for himself and this is really why he commanded the fathers to shoot their own sons in the back if they had ideas of leaving the farm for any reason. He dealt with competition in blood. In any event, I believe they were all onto the same location along the Salt River. A present factor that many overlook is the fact that the tablets do not say Peralta anywhere on them and in reality refer to an existing treasure already amassed, stored at the mission in Santa Fe and relocated somewhere beyond the reaches of the Black River. This took place in and around the late 1700's due to the Pima uprisings. All weigh bills use coded reference to locate the sources of the initial ore, but their main focal point is to get to the goods in the vault(s). Germans whoever they were, had found the Peralta's most recent Arizona digs and the only clue that even ties the tablets is the hint of 1847 which was more than likely added to the stones beyond their date of conception. Personally, I would refer to them as Jesuit tablets since the Peraltas only inherited the existing trail. These were Indian mines forced out of the natives by the monks.

 

[Oroblanco]

Twisted Fork wrote

There is one site in particular in this entire region referred to as the "Heart"; It is the richest place of them all.

A lot of folks have had this idea, but if it is the same "Heart" place in the Superstitions that I am familiar with, it is not that promising for any kind of minerals - at least not compared with several other areas Mrs O and I have prospected which are elsewhere, in AZ, AK, YT, CO etc. If I may ask, why do you say it is "the richest place of them all"? Thank you in advance, and if you would rather not say I will understand.
Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Spanish love comes from the heart...........It is the richest kind. Ask any Don.




They are also saying that if you find my mine through my secrets (of the heart) it will be as a knife to the heart to loose such a love as this.


I get the impression that they believed that most of the Rocky mountains and surrounding states were formed all at the same time more or less as one ore body and that the site of the heart is the source of all things pure. I would say that the gold running across to the East from Nevada is the main shoulder of the Don's body with King's peak (Don) being the top of his crown.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

Thank you for your reply. It would seem you misunderstood my post. I am not really interested in the mechanics/markers for the Lost Adams Diggings as I am not in that hunt. I am interested in the pioneer history of Arizona and more specifically, at this moment, the Adams family.

I made some points in my post which I hoped you could address. The fact that originally it was Ed Adams who was the principal person involved in the Lost Adams legend. The fact that, according to the original story, that George Adams would have been eight years old when the sandbar was found. Finally, the entire story of who, how, why and when it was found is completely different than the story that was passed down to you.

Have you ever read the original story? If not, perhaps you should.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

I remember reading several different versions other than my own in the archives at the Phoenix library, including the one you have brought to light. All of them were different from each other and were in need of being dismantled and cross referenced. Perhaps legend has mixed up to different characters over one and the same location. There is only one or two locations in all of Arizona that even come close to fitting the bill. Your biggest stumbling block will be in trying to find said area according to available water on the trail as it is the defining limitation to where their animals could travel to in the first place. Nearly all of the springs vanished permanently when they built Roosevelt Dam due to back pressure against the hydrothermal faults reaching far into other territories. As for the family version, they held the gold with their own hands and this was from the horse's mouth to my ears, shortly before the old timer Sponseller passed away. I still remember playing with his father as a little boy and he was as hard a core real life Arizona cowboy as they come. After Adams was wounded by the Apache, he was to scared to ever go back and soon moved out of the area. The story version I first spoke of was word for word from the mouth of these old timers. Adams left a detailed map with Joseph Sponseller at the time of his marriage to his daughter Martha. It covered the location of a particular canyon along the Salt. Outside of this he would only say that it was 3 days ride and down river on the Salt from the Show Low Calvary Saloon. The key land mark was that it was filled with more cactus than anywhere else he knew of. The problem with legends are that it is possible that only one single reference amongst the story may bear any accuracy in relation to pointing you in the right direction. Have you seen in a schoolroom where one person whispers into the ear of another, and then in turn each student whispers what they heard into the ear of the next until there is now comparison to the original voice spoken by the time the story gets to the other side of the room? Add to this booze, horse play, greed, liars, story tellers, whores, and last but not least, 150 years. Oh ya, and don't forget the blazing Arizona heat, delirium and the intervention of ghosts in the minds of mad men. People write books because there is money in it, At this point I figure I will hold on to my first hand trail experience and the horse's mouth; the gold is where you find it brother; don't let the hugh rattle snacks bite O.K. Any more questions? When you get close, use the stone tablets.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening ghost dog: A slight correction. Topia is in Sinaloa and has a paved road to it.

It is NOT Tayopa, sorry. The location of Topia has never been lost.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

Once again, many thanks for your reply.

I have most of the stories of the Lost Adam's Diggings, and now I have yours to add to the collection. As I noted earlier, the story is quite old. I believe, if there was ever any truth to that legend, the location has been found long ago. I am much more interested in what you can add to your families' history.

To be honest, I already know a great deal, but had never heard some of your stories. Here are a few facts:

George Mason Adams did not raise cattle......for a living. He raised sheep. They were often on the Mesa, that being Mesa Rondonda. They had a few cows, but that was usually the extent of their cattle interests. George and Martha were very brave people, and he never moved from their home because of Indians.

Martha once physically held an escaping Indian, who was on horseback, until the menfolk came to her aid. No shrinking violet there.

Other than accidentally shooting himself when he was sixteen, over the years, George suffered seven broken ribs, both collar bones broken, one arm broken in two places, a broken shoulder blade and a skull fracture. No other mishaps are mentioned. I believe those injuries were recorded by Katie Pearl Adams Penrod, in 1953.

Depending on your age, I have probably read the history of your parents. If you tell me their first names, I will tell you what I know about their history. What do you know about the deaths of George and Martha? I would be interested in any information you would care to share. Do you have any of the older family pictures?

This is what happens when you ask me if I have any "more questions".

Thanks again,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

Questions are alright..........

I was refering to the Sponsellers as the owners of the cattle ranch. They ran cattle on government land along the Salt beyond Show Low. As for my family, they want nothing to do with any of it as it is with the descendants of the Sponsellers. They ran for their lives out of the canyon in question back in the early eighties after seeing a bearded man with long brown hair dressed in a robe who stood on a rock sticking out of a slope to their side. The tablets lead to this spot and their is evidence that it was once canyon Fresco before the spring died. This being looked down at them and their diviner lost all of her power like hitting a switch. Then he turned about face and vanished before their eyes as though he was stepping into another realm. My cousin said he has never seen old fat people run so fast in all of his life. The two of us returned to the area two weeks later and finished out a sequence of Spanish markers leading to the draw from above. My cousin freaked out and would go no further. On the slope below, I located five yucca plants arranged in the form of a cross. Three in a row vertical 2 feet apart, and one on either side same spread. This is the dirt patch plugging the portal that leads into the buried funnel from below on the mountain. On the tablets it is carved as a safe, marked 11 with a cross at it's side in parentheses. The being stood just above here, in between two Spanish markers of similar form, 8 paces apart to form 11. I am a black sheep.....Baaaaaaaaaa

(and Hell no , the being wasn't Moroni)

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

Once again, thank you for your reply,

The information that I have, which comes from the children of Joseph and Martha Sponseller, indicates that they were, primarily, sheep ranchers. At one time they had almost 5,000 head of sheep with the larger part being American sheep and the rest consisting of Mexican sheep.

At the same time, they did have 40-50 head of cattle, but that seemed a minor part of their ranching. They did not live in Show Low, but had their ranch in Taylor, AZ, which is close by.

The Stone Maps are not that difficult to read, and are confined to the Superstition Mountains, with Bluff Spring Mountain being the easternmost boundary. I believe I posted pictures of my map on this Forum.
Anyone who is familiar with the Superstitions should be able to see the obvious connection with the Stone Maps.

On the other hand, anyone who believes they know of another area which is depicted by the Stone Maps, will likely not see a connection at all.

If there is anything you feel you may not know about your family, and are curious about, I may be able to help. At the same time, I would be interested in any, unpublished, information you would care to share, like you have done in your past few posts.

Many thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

One day when all of you are on the edge of starvation due to the numskulls ass kissing in office and ZOG domination (Kazars), numerous Jesuit treasures shall be uncovered across the West, in an effort to feed those who are worthy. Thanks, but I could not stomach another Mormon session of genealogy listening to perverted Masons brag. There is no such thing as a Jew. The gold is where you find it.

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

You wrote:

[I cannot really say, for absolutely sure, that anything has really been "authenticated". That is an assumption based on someone looking at it (who is knowledgeable, to be sure), but, never-the-less, not really "authenticated" - as such.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't people who are trying to get a hand-written, "yes, I saw it, I examined it, and here are my conclusions" authentication, and they HAVE been looked at by more than one person. (for different reasons).]

The people I mentioned did not, and could not, have authenticated or conclusively proved anything concerning the Stone Maps. They were asked for a qualified opinion based of a cursory examination of the artifacts. They did that, and their reasoning was compelling.......at least to me. If you have not read the article, I will have the magazine at the Rendezvous and you can judge it yourself........assuming you haven't already purchased or seen a copy.

The maps have been examined by many people and some of them were qualified to judge them, in some manner. Those who are said to have authenticated them as to age, have never put their name to the bottom of a written report.......that can be produced today, or was made public at any time in the past.

The Stone Maps have resided in a museum for many years now. After all those years, no one at the museum, that I have talked to believes they are (historically) authentic. As I mentioned, the last conversation I had with someone from the museum, a few weeks ago, produced the ringing endorsement of..........."crazy maps".

It may be that the museum has never truly examined the tablets with an eye toward authentication either, but they all have a definite (negative) opinion. Due to their own self interests, they seldom will make a public statement to that effect.

Take care,

Joe