Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
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Excellent post my friend.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
The Peralta Stones
- Thread starter gollum
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Twisted Fork
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Another note........
Much of the so called Native American rock art murals that we enjoy running through these routes from mineral zone to mineral zone were actually done by the Peraltas and the Jesuit Monks preceding them. The Indians originally perceived the monks as Angelic beings they called the big hats. By the time they caught on, the Jesuits had learned the locations of their ancestors mines and were soon using their rock art formats to pick maps on walls from site to site. For the most part, the Indians felt that the spirits of their ancestors inhabited all things including stone and would not dare carve on them least they experience spiritual retaliation for doing so.
The key to reading them is quite simple......match up peaks in the mineralized areas, grazing meadows isolated by stone where burros would be shackled and sources for water same as any map. The symbols are just unusual, but reference descriptions are still much the same. The shapes of ridge lines any hunter would use, dominant animal trails to cover burro tracks, the position of the rising or setting sun on June 21st. or quarterly, dominant hills or peaks over looking the mineral zone in question, shadows cast by landforms and such timeless indicators will lead you onto the marker sets laid out on the ground; basically the same tricks used from around the world by Pirates, Masons, and Kings. It must all be looked at through the simple mind of a child or you will fall for the illusions inherit to most treasure hunters. Once you have all of the money you could use, what is left? These boys loved games of charades and mostly if it confused the French.
Much of the so called Native American rock art murals that we enjoy running through these routes from mineral zone to mineral zone were actually done by the Peraltas and the Jesuit Monks preceding them. The Indians originally perceived the monks as Angelic beings they called the big hats. By the time they caught on, the Jesuits had learned the locations of their ancestors mines and were soon using their rock art formats to pick maps on walls from site to site. For the most part, the Indians felt that the spirits of their ancestors inhabited all things including stone and would not dare carve on them least they experience spiritual retaliation for doing so.
The key to reading them is quite simple......match up peaks in the mineralized areas, grazing meadows isolated by stone where burros would be shackled and sources for water same as any map. The symbols are just unusual, but reference descriptions are still much the same. The shapes of ridge lines any hunter would use, dominant animal trails to cover burro tracks, the position of the rising or setting sun on June 21st. or quarterly, dominant hills or peaks over looking the mineral zone in question, shadows cast by landforms and such timeless indicators will lead you onto the marker sets laid out on the ground; basically the same tricks used from around the world by Pirates, Masons, and Kings. It must all be looked at through the simple mind of a child or you will fall for the illusions inherit to most treasure hunters. Once you have all of the money you could use, what is left? These boys loved games of charades and mostly if it confused the French.
Oroblanco
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Don Jose de la Mancha wrote
Twisted Fork wrote
You have hit upon a key factor of the "Colonial" days, that the various European powers were in fact trying to seize, steal, encroach etc on the colonial possessions of the other powers and this is especially true between the French and the Spanish. Their "feud" began in Florida when the French Hueguenots planted a colony there ahead of the Spanish, and the race was on. Did the French manage to get parties of spies and/or explorers into Spanish America? Just look at the reactions recorded by the Spanish, often sending off fairly large military forces to intercept French (and Russian and later American) parties they got word of.
Why do you say that there were 8 places, instead of 18? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
Ditto to the words of my amigo!
Twisted Fork wrote
You have hit upon a key factor of the "Colonial" days, that the various European powers were in fact trying to seize, steal, encroach etc on the colonial possessions of the other powers and this is especially true between the French and the Spanish. Their "feud" began in Florida when the French Hueguenots planted a colony there ahead of the Spanish, and the race was on. Did the French manage to get parties of spies and/or explorers into Spanish America? Just look at the reactions recorded by the Spanish, often sending off fairly large military forces to intercept French (and Russian and later American) parties they got word of.
Why do you say that there were 8 places, instead of 18? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
Twisted Fork
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Just an educated guess one might say. I've spent half my life working with 5 main Spanish sites; 4 here in Utah and 1 in Arizona. Something they all have in common is that the mapped trail coming into the mineral heart zone of each mountain, enters from the N.W. (trail or no trail, passable or not) and each of them uses groupings of 8 land form shapes found on the tablets. The sequence varies from site to site, but the same eight are used in some combination or another making them flexible enough to apply anywhere that raw gold can be hunted. Nature has a way of repeating itself over and over in any number of group combinations of these 8 shapes.
At one site, a French curve may be the shape of the river below the mine; at another, it may be the shape of the canyon leading up to the site or the ridge, and at yet another it may be the shape of the main animal trail, as it approaches near to the final mine marker set location. For some reason, the French curve is the most common shape found nearest to the lode(s) initial point of exposure. The final 8 markers (or pieces of 8) that lead you through the last paces to the digs, will be positioned so as to cause you to cross the same sequence of shapes on the close ground as you did previously coming into the area from afar, just scaled way down and close to an 8 to 1 scale by comparison. Long range to short range sets. Canon range, rifle range, pistol range, stone's throw range and dagger range are the average distances in sequence from the furthest peak down to the last marker near to the mine. The last target or marker is the heart stone thus, "Knife to Heart" a reference to a concealed entrance that leads into the heart of the mountain where a man's gold can be realized.
There very well could be 18 sites where pure gold could be mined if one includes Colorado, New Mexico and California. It is The Trail of the Spanish Horse Soldier. Cobollo is mentioned as I remember, not hard to track with the richest mines marked off on topographic maps at our disposal.
Keep in mind that they left decoy mines sitting in the open with tailing piles for the hunter to find. The real deal has no tailing pile and is in some way concealed in the natural landscape. Each of these portals have a stone the shape of a man's head set on the ground around 80 feet away (give or take). Aim at an imagined 45 degree angle across his ear and through his forehead, forward or backward on this line, looking for a shoulder shape that the mine rests on or in. Some of these stones will also have a second stone next to them similar to the shape of a torch flame he holds ready.
At one site, a French curve may be the shape of the river below the mine; at another, it may be the shape of the canyon leading up to the site or the ridge, and at yet another it may be the shape of the main animal trail, as it approaches near to the final mine marker set location. For some reason, the French curve is the most common shape found nearest to the lode(s) initial point of exposure. The final 8 markers (or pieces of 8) that lead you through the last paces to the digs, will be positioned so as to cause you to cross the same sequence of shapes on the close ground as you did previously coming into the area from afar, just scaled way down and close to an 8 to 1 scale by comparison. Long range to short range sets. Canon range, rifle range, pistol range, stone's throw range and dagger range are the average distances in sequence from the furthest peak down to the last marker near to the mine. The last target or marker is the heart stone thus, "Knife to Heart" a reference to a concealed entrance that leads into the heart of the mountain where a man's gold can be realized.
There very well could be 18 sites where pure gold could be mined if one includes Colorado, New Mexico and California. It is The Trail of the Spanish Horse Soldier. Cobollo is mentioned as I remember, not hard to track with the richest mines marked off on topographic maps at our disposal.
Keep in mind that they left decoy mines sitting in the open with tailing piles for the hunter to find. The real deal has no tailing pile and is in some way concealed in the natural landscape. Each of these portals have a stone the shape of a man's head set on the ground around 80 feet away (give or take). Aim at an imagined 45 degree angle across his ear and through his forehead, forward or backward on this line, looking for a shoulder shape that the mine rests on or in. Some of these stones will also have a second stone next to them similar to the shape of a torch flame he holds ready.
BenThereDoneThat
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Nothing to add, just bookmarking this. 
Oroblanco
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HOLA amigo!
Twisted Fork wrote
So you think the stone maps could cover a MUCH larger area than just the Superstition mountains, as some have theorized? It would explain some things for sure. I had not thought of them in that way, will have to do some 'studying' now!
As I have posted before, NOT saying you are wrong amigo, just I am not convinced the Peralta stones are any older than the 1930's and quite possibly a good hoax. One other possibility that has bothered me is that it is not a "treasure" map in the sense that a treasure hunter would view, but from the point of view of a missionary. So in this theory, it is a map to find the "visitas" (minor church missions) in the back country and the old saying "I am just the horse" carrying the word of God so to speak has some bearing. In this theory the stone maps are made either by Jesuit or Franciscan priests or monks, and the region depicted may well be some distance to the south of the Superstitions. Two of our amigos here on T-net have proposed locations that will fit the maps (Cactusjumper and Gollum) in one case virtually perfectly. Trouble is there are no eighteen gold mines in the locations indicated on the stone maps, if overlaid on the Superstition mountains.
I find your ideas a very interesting possibility amigo, I hope you will post more!
your friend,
Oroblanco
Twisted Fork wrote
So you think the stone maps could cover a MUCH larger area than just the Superstition mountains, as some have theorized? It would explain some things for sure. I had not thought of them in that way, will have to do some 'studying' now!
As I have posted before, NOT saying you are wrong amigo, just I am not convinced the Peralta stones are any older than the 1930's and quite possibly a good hoax. One other possibility that has bothered me is that it is not a "treasure" map in the sense that a treasure hunter would view, but from the point of view of a missionary. So in this theory, it is a map to find the "visitas" (minor church missions) in the back country and the old saying "I am just the horse" carrying the word of God so to speak has some bearing. In this theory the stone maps are made either by Jesuit or Franciscan priests or monks, and the region depicted may well be some distance to the south of the Superstitions. Two of our amigos here on T-net have proposed locations that will fit the maps (Cactusjumper and Gollum) in one case virtually perfectly. Trouble is there are no eighteen gold mines in the locations indicated on the stone maps, if overlaid on the Superstition mountains.
I find your ideas a very interesting possibility amigo, I hope you will post more!
your friend,
Oroblanco
Twisted Fork
Hero Member
Oh boy, you will never see through the eyes of a deceased yet livid Jesuit spirit guide if you insist on using dirty words such as "Franciscan". It's kind of like what America is going through at this time with the liberal administration; Old world Christian values being dissolved by puppets in the hands of the Holy Land Mafia. The Jesuits were dismantled due to their first love next to Jesus; the assassination of frisky liberals in high places. The French King himself was a sort of queer fellow in their eyes and there was great fun in disappearing his chums. Evidently the King of Spain took a liking to him and the French King talked him and the Pope into getting rid of the Jesuits in some sort of hanky panky trade off. So, the Jesuits in the new land having received first hand knowledge from their staff couriers, decided to walk off with tons of gold and silver bullion stored in the Santa Fe mission and split West down the Black River. Gosh the King was expecting to see all of that hard earned Jesuit booty very soon; just as soon as it could be transported down to the gulf and loaded on to the fleet. Well before disappearing and hooking up with the pirates in the Spanish main, the monks took all of that Treasure away from the heated paths of the mad ass and recently stired up Pima and Apachie war parties and headed North into the lush, calm green pastures of Utah. There they deposited "The Treasure of Santa Fe" and in an ancient Aztec Kiva that the monks knew was taboo for the Ute Indians to even talk about least they be executed by their chiefs. Pretty smart of them eh? After that, the Jesuits disappear from history with the last of the infamous Pirates of the Caribbean and spent their final years plundering the Spanish main in revengeful adventure. Then a group of clowns show up pretending to be an Indian fan fare and political circus called the "Dominguez - Escalante Expedition". On board was the celebrated razor sharp dude tracker and coded map maker "Meira". Got to hand it to them, they really tried and tried to find that darn treasure, but they didn't. 
Oroblanco
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HOLA amigos,
Twisted Fork wrote
Aaaah my friend, they did not vanish completely, in fact some in America (Maryland specifically) never did quit their work, and the Jesuit Order was allowed to re-establish itself some years later after the furor died down. They even founded a major university during the period when they were supposedly disbanded forever. (Georgetown University, Father John Carroll founded the school in 1789; now remember the Jesuits were ordered to be disbanded forever in 1773 by Pope Clement XIV, and the order was disbanded for 41 years and not allowed to be re-established until August of 1814!!!!) Never underestimate the Society of Jesus amigo!
I get a strong impression you have much more information, that you would perhaps rather not make public so I will not ask you to - however if there is any additional info you don't mind sharing, I would love to hear more!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory',
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Twisted Fork wrote
Aaaah my friend, they did not vanish completely, in fact some in America (Maryland specifically) never did quit their work, and the Jesuit Order was allowed to re-establish itself some years later after the furor died down. They even founded a major university during the period when they were supposedly disbanded forever. (Georgetown University, Father John Carroll founded the school in 1789; now remember the Jesuits were ordered to be disbanded forever in 1773 by Pope Clement XIV, and the order was disbanded for 41 years and not allowed to be re-established until August of 1814!!!!) Never underestimate the Society of Jesus amigo!
I get a strong impression you have much more information, that you would perhaps rather not make public so I will not ask you to - however if there is any additional info you don't mind sharing, I would love to hear more!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory',
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Twisted Fork
Hero Member
Well, one must admit that they were not the type of men to leave their post. I believe that a number of them stuck around to keep an eye on things with the westward expansion at hand. Then we have the lovely topic of the I'll never tell because God loves me massacre experts on the prairie who specialized in dressing up like Indians and jumping innocent folks in their sleep with clubs and knifes, the Mormons; woops, I mean Brigam Young's Gang, I mean those one guys that were chased out of the East for stealing livestock on the run and camping in everyone's North 40 without permission, I mean the Saints. Yes, your right the Jesuits were still around and some of their 125 coded maps that made it back to Seville, Spain and recovered some years ago show adjustments in quads that direct the boys to take other trails in and out of the mine site locations. A hint of this is the addition of dotted lines drawn and running parallel to existing lines so as to reference seldom known or used back main animal trails running behind the mountains away from new settlements. I believe the monks were still running around as late as world war II and this includes the offspring of the Peraltas. History is just lame in recording such events with the communists take over in full swing. Cloak and dagger survives in the Jesuit Hoods.
Oroblanco
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HOLA amigos,
Twisted Fork wrote
The Society of Jesus is still around and very active TODAY - we even have several members here on T-net whom are members of the Order. I have often puzzled, how strange it is - considering how the Jesuits cry poverty and deny any mining activities, smuggling, using slaves etc that whenever and where-ever there are treasures, we are bound to find some Jesuits in the mix! 
Twisted Fork also wrote
Sounds like you have been listening to Fox news amigo - don't believe everything you hear! The takeover took place quite some time ago - in 1963........and there is a better term for it, also an "-ISM"
your friend in 'Dakota Territory',
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power Benito Mussolini
Twisted Fork wrote
The Society of Jesus is still around and very active TODAY - we even have several members here on T-net whom are members of the Order. I have often puzzled, how strange it is - considering how the Jesuits cry poverty and deny any mining activities, smuggling, using slaves etc that whenever and where-ever there are treasures, we are bound to find some Jesuits in the mix!
Twisted Fork also wrote
Sounds like you have been listening to Fox news amigo - don't believe everything you hear! The takeover took place quite some time ago - in 1963........and there is a better term for it, also an "-ISM"
your friend in 'Dakota Territory',
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power Benito Mussolini
Twisted Fork
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Jesus was not Jewish. He came from the North and was Patriarchal, not Matriarchal. Communism has been alive since they crucified him. It means "Anti-Christ", to walk arm in arm with men, rather than God. Pilot nick named him their King of Judea as such to tease the locals Christ had condemned. The proper term is Pharisees who were not of the tribes of Israel; The term Jew has only been around since the 1800's. They were of a different source other than the Israelites and were rather those of Edam/Canaanite. The monks of the Jesuits and others before them have been a thorn in their side from the day the monks were conceived.
These stone tablets and their location were probably used as a mail box for the Monks as they appear to have been adjusted by different techniques of marking. The Peraltas may have added 1847 to them in the event of the war at which time the end was in sight. Knife to Heart, from the beginning to the end.
I am aware of a concealed and undisturbed Peralta mine in particular that I tracked with the tablets, of which the final quad reads 147 degrees from it's headstone marker. Legend has it that Spanish involvement on this site in particular originates from the year 1562. It is a massive hydrothermal and a freak of nature as most gold deposits go. The breakup of the Jesuits took place just as they were getting ready to build a monastery over it atop the mine. Jesuit Ghosts still watch over their treasures and I have seen them with my own eyes, walking up the mountain.
These stone tablets and their location were probably used as a mail box for the Monks as they appear to have been adjusted by different techniques of marking. The Peraltas may have added 1847 to them in the event of the war at which time the end was in sight. Knife to Heart, from the beginning to the end.
I am aware of a concealed and undisturbed Peralta mine in particular that I tracked with the tablets, of which the final quad reads 147 degrees from it's headstone marker. Legend has it that Spanish involvement on this site in particular originates from the year 1562. It is a massive hydrothermal and a freak of nature as most gold deposits go. The breakup of the Jesuits took place just as they were getting ready to build a monastery over it atop the mine. Jesuit Ghosts still watch over their treasures and I have seen them with my own eyes, walking up the mountain.
mrs.oroblanco
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I have done alot of investigations on the Peralta Stones, especially when I was still in Arizona.
The whole deal still, to this day, does not sit right.
First, who would find engraved stones and then not go right back to see if there was any thing else? Nobody here, that I know.
Second, the lettering of 1847 is masterfully done, very precise, yet the inscriptions in some areas are (seem to me) to be done by someone who has neither a working knowledge of Spanish, nor of rock engraving. Peligroza - (dangerous) -mis-spelled - corazon (heart) mis-spelled - cobollo (horse), mis-spelled. Don Pedro Peralta - a person made up by Reavis - it's definitely a paradox. Most Jesuits were well educated - they certainly wouldn't be misspelling something as important as a map. Engraving is not like writing with a pen, it takes time to carve a word, and I would think it more difficult to make a mistake.
Plus, all the goings on with the stones after they were 'found', with Tumlinson and Moel, etc.
I would like to see proof positive of the datings on the stones - it is not a foregone conclusion, either way, whether they are as old as they might be, nor, that they are of a newer age.
Even if all were as it has been purported, it still would not mean that the Stones are a lead to the Lost Dutchman, nor any treasure for that matter.
B
The whole deal still, to this day, does not sit right.
First, who would find engraved stones and then not go right back to see if there was any thing else? Nobody here, that I know.
Second, the lettering of 1847 is masterfully done, very precise, yet the inscriptions in some areas are (seem to me) to be done by someone who has neither a working knowledge of Spanish, nor of rock engraving. Peligroza - (dangerous) -mis-spelled - corazon (heart) mis-spelled - cobollo (horse), mis-spelled. Don Pedro Peralta - a person made up by Reavis - it's definitely a paradox. Most Jesuits were well educated - they certainly wouldn't be misspelling something as important as a map. Engraving is not like writing with a pen, it takes time to carve a word, and I would think it more difficult to make a mistake.
Plus, all the goings on with the stones after they were 'found', with Tumlinson and Moel, etc.
I would like to see proof positive of the datings on the stones - it is not a foregone conclusion, either way, whether they are as old as they might be, nor, that they are of a newer age.
Even if all were as it has been purported, it still would not mean that the Stones are a lead to the Lost Dutchman, nor any treasure for that matter.
B
Just my opinion but..
until someone can come up with a single shred of evidence or documentation linking these stones to anything or anyone they are nothing but interesting carved stones with one or two or a dozen differen't authors that may or may not have been carved between 1700 and 1945.
Twisted Fork, I really enjoy your posts and hope that you will contiunue but can you offer anything to back them up?? 125 coded maps? can you provided one or a link to one?
Bill
until someone can come up with a single shred of evidence or documentation linking these stones to anything or anyone they are nothing but interesting carved stones with one or two or a dozen differen't authors that may or may not have been carved between 1700 and 1945.
Twisted Fork, I really enjoy your posts and hope that you will contiunue but can you offer anything to back them up?? 125 coded maps? can you provided one or a link to one?
Bill
Twisted Fork
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I believe that early Mexican history shows that some of the early Peralta family carved grave stones in Sonora. At least that is one version I remember reading in an old now out of print volume from the Arizona archives. Incorrect spellings are intentional and a craft of the code maker. First you will need a dictionary in Italian, Portuguese, Latin, Spanish, and French. When you find what appears to be a misspelled word, cross reference it in each language. Then investigate 5 other words in each dictionary, that are closest to the same spelling. Now play charades with the monks and their period life style pictured in your thoughts. Consider old world slang from the time period. The priest in the witch hat who stands by the river, holds a staff that is a picture that is telling you to cross reference everything to do with the signs. Everything is reference as in a game of charades. This system came into being through the monks entertaining bilingual ship crews at sea; most of which could not read but who were easily amused with picture games such as casting finger shadows on the wall with a candle. Nursery rhymes included.
I believe that early Mexican history shows that some of the early Peralta family carved grave stones in Sonora. At least that is one version I remember reading in an old now out of print volume from the Arizona archives. Incorrect spellings are intentional and a craft of the code maker. First you will need a dictionary in Italian, Portuguese, Latin, Spanish, and French. When you find what appears to be a misspelled word, cross reference it in each language. Then investigate 5 other words in each dictionary, that are closest to the same spelling. Now play charades with the monks and their period life style pictured in your thoughts. Consider old world slang from the time period. The priest in the witch hat who stands by the river, holds a staff that is a picture that is telling you to cross reference everything to do with the signs. Everything is reference as in a game of charades. This system came into being through the monks entertaining bilingual ship crews at sea; most of which could not read but who were easily amused with picture games such as casting finger shadows on the wall with a candle. Nursery rhymes included.
Twisted Fork
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Example:
The word "Bereda" is old world slang for "Big Knife", which refers to a giant cactus of which is a blade sticking up from the ground (Barrel Cactus) or a sword with hilt stuck into the ground (Saguaro). With the addition of the word "Barrel" and "Big" or "Giant", we have a reference to "A Canon" or "Long Gun" which refers to range in distance from the point. A canon is also reference to music with "Bars". This can reference vocal range or distance at ear shot, and so on; consider the desert and "Canyon". Canons are set a a slope angle through aim and on it goes without end as a song like row, row, row your boat which is functional reference to the "Corsair" which is used for leaving a body of water or seeking "A Landing" or shelf or tier or pier and so on. Nautical measure comes into play and the ores of the boat. The captains closest (His Parrot) sits on a shoulder, but may reference in a shoulder shape and it looks back from a perch like a cactus near the mine. Get a bird's eye view overlooking the site. A picture tells a thousand words. Consider the man. If I know most Mexican fellows of the period, the mind flows best with this after a fine pipe load.
The word "Bereda" is old world slang for "Big Knife", which refers to a giant cactus of which is a blade sticking up from the ground (Barrel Cactus) or a sword with hilt stuck into the ground (Saguaro). With the addition of the word "Barrel" and "Big" or "Giant", we have a reference to "A Canon" or "Long Gun" which refers to range in distance from the point. A canon is also reference to music with "Bars". This can reference vocal range or distance at ear shot, and so on; consider the desert and "Canyon". Canons are set a a slope angle through aim and on it goes without end as a song like row, row, row your boat which is functional reference to the "Corsair" which is used for leaving a body of water or seeking "A Landing" or shelf or tier or pier and so on. Nautical measure comes into play and the ores of the boat. The captains closest (His Parrot) sits on a shoulder, but may reference in a shoulder shape and it looks back from a perch like a cactus near the mine. Get a bird's eye view overlooking the site. A picture tells a thousand words. Consider the man. If I know most Mexican fellows of the period, the mind flows best with this after a fine pipe load.
mrs.oroblanco
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There is, and has been, another explanation for the witch and the cross.
If you notice, the witch has the cross sideways, and there are 'pieces' of something (assumed to be the stones by those who have this idea), and that the witch is actually breaking the stones into pieces.
The errors on the stones cannot be cross-referenced to anything, and they are not slang. (which is what I believe you are referring to). They are mis-spellings. In fact, if you continue to read in Spanish, there are also grammatical errors. Like YO BOY - I, I?
Peralta's were certainly thought to be further south - Miguel Peralta.
Pedro Peralta is a whole 'nuther animal.
B
If you notice, the witch has the cross sideways, and there are 'pieces' of something (assumed to be the stones by those who have this idea), and that the witch is actually breaking the stones into pieces.
The errors on the stones cannot be cross-referenced to anything, and they are not slang. (which is what I believe you are referring to). They are mis-spellings. In fact, if you continue to read in Spanish, there are also grammatical errors. Like YO BOY - I, I
? Peralta's were certainly thought to be further south - Miguel Peralta.
Pedro Peralta is a whole 'nuther animal.
B
Springfield
Silver Member
Twisted Fork said:
Uh-huh. Your unsubstantiated rants fit the mold.
OP
OP
gollum
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Beth,
As I have gone round and round with Roy about in the past, ONE thing stands out above ANYTHING else! ALWAYS watch what people DO and not what they SAY. Doing so will give you a truer representation of that persons real intentions.
I almost want to hunt my old posts down to cut and paste them here, buuuuuuuuut:
>Travis Tumlinson (original finder in 1949, unless you believe in the Arizpe Mission Version): Kept the stones pretty much a secret until his death in 1961. Never attempted to sell them. Not likely that he faked them, since he never tried to cash them out in the twelve years he owned them.
>Robert Tumlinson (Travis' Brother): Had possession of the stones for a few years while Travis was very ill. He never tried to sell them. All he did was get his landlord to fund a few trips to Arizona from Oregon to try and solve the stone maps. When he became very ill, he gave the stone maps back to his brother. Again, not the actions of a person who knows they are fakes.
>Alleen Tumlinson (Travis' Widow): Sold the stone maps to an old family friend (Clarence O. Mitchell) for $1200. If she knew or thought the stone maps to be fakes, would she REALLY have sold them to an old family friend? Not likely.
>Clarence O. Mitchell (owned the stone maps from 1961 until 1969): Kept the stone maps an absolute secret from 1961 until 1964. He never tried to sell the stone maps, but he did use them to promote sales of stock in MOEL Inc (an exploration company he co-owned). After having several opportunities to sell them over the years, he never did. Instead, he donated his set to the AL Flagg Foundation in 1969.
With the possible exception of Clarence O Mitchell, not one of the stone maps owners ever tried to sell them, as would have been the case if they were fraudsters. It is an absolute certainty that Mitchell was not the maker of the stone maps.
ACTIONS speak much louder than do words. I firmly believe that all the Tumlinsons and Mitchell believed in the authenticity of the stone maps.
Best-Mike
As I have gone round and round with Roy about in the past, ONE thing stands out above ANYTHING else! ALWAYS watch what people DO and not what they SAY. Doing so will give you a truer representation of that persons real intentions.
I almost want to hunt my old posts down to cut and paste them here, buuuuuuuuut:
>Travis Tumlinson (original finder in 1949, unless you believe in the Arizpe Mission Version): Kept the stones pretty much a secret until his death in 1961. Never attempted to sell them. Not likely that he faked them, since he never tried to cash them out in the twelve years he owned them.
>Robert Tumlinson (Travis' Brother): Had possession of the stones for a few years while Travis was very ill. He never tried to sell them. All he did was get his landlord to fund a few trips to Arizona from Oregon to try and solve the stone maps. When he became very ill, he gave the stone maps back to his brother. Again, not the actions of a person who knows they are fakes.
>Alleen Tumlinson (Travis' Widow): Sold the stone maps to an old family friend (Clarence O. Mitchell) for $1200. If she knew or thought the stone maps to be fakes, would she REALLY have sold them to an old family friend? Not likely.
>Clarence O. Mitchell (owned the stone maps from 1961 until 1969): Kept the stone maps an absolute secret from 1961 until 1964. He never tried to sell the stone maps, but he did use them to promote sales of stock in MOEL Inc (an exploration company he co-owned). After having several opportunities to sell them over the years, he never did. Instead, he donated his set to the AL Flagg Foundation in 1969.
With the possible exception of Clarence O Mitchell, not one of the stone maps owners ever tried to sell them, as would have been the case if they were fraudsters. It is an absolute certainty that Mitchell was not the maker of the stone maps.
ACTIONS speak much louder than do words. I firmly believe that all the Tumlinsons and Mitchell believed in the authenticity of the stone maps.
Best-Mike
mrs.oroblanco
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Gollum,
I have most of our old posts - and, as you know - the key to my statement is knowing exactly - again - EXACTLY, what the real story is on the age of the stones. (an unlikely scenerio, since I know that a few good folks have doggedly tried to track down the truth, for a long time)
I'll leave it at that.
B
I have most of our old posts - and, as you know - the key to my statement is knowing exactly - again - EXACTLY, what the real story is on the age of the stones. (an unlikely scenerio, since I know that a few good folks have doggedly tried to track down the truth, for a long time)
I'll leave it at that.
B
Oroblanco
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Gollum wrote
HOLA amigo Mike - I realize this was addressed to Mrs O, just wanted to say that you have convinced me that the Tumlinsons, Mitchell et al did believe the stones were genuine, which is not the same as saying that the stones are in fact genuine. The stones were heavily cleaned, so it is unlikely that their exact age can ever be determined.
Oroblanco
HOLA amigo Mike - I realize this was addressed to Mrs O, just wanted to say that you have convinced me that the Tumlinsons, Mitchell et al did believe the stones were genuine, which is not the same as saying that the stones are in fact genuine. The stones were heavily cleaned, so it is unlikely that their exact age can ever be determined.
Oroblanco
