The Pit Mine, the LDM, Kochera and the Nugget of Truth video.

[Oroblanco]

Great post Matthew, thanks for sharing this.

Mick I would have to respectfully disagree with you, that is a sworn affidavit from Holmes. That would carry some weight in court. It is a cut above the many clues and maps, which would not have much weight in court.

To all, the ores tested by Dr Glover didn't match the Dutchman ore, period. A 75% match isn't a match.

On the Dutchman quote traveling to California unquote, I would like to see where this is coming from. Waltz is documented in California before he moved to Arizona, but I have never seen anything about him ever returning to California. Thanks in advance,

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

Thank you Matthew,

If the matchbox AND the other "LDM" samples are a clear match that goes a long way in setting to rest any doubts on that score. The matchbox ore which took a so journey outside the family matches those items kept by the family. That's definitive. They all match to the same source with a high degree of probability.

But; If I'm correctly putting those pieces of information together.....there's still interesting information in the video clip and the testing. The Kochera ore has a 75% chance of being from the same or a close related source. That's not chicken feed either. It goes a long way in establishing a similarity between the Kochera ore and LDM ore. And; rules out the Goldfield mines and known Western sources.

Hi Old,

I may be missing something, but I don't think it's clear what specific pieces of "jewelry" were tested, or whether the matchbox matches the tie pin, etc. All Dr. Glover says in Part 1 was that his friend "Mr. C" had access to several pieces of "Jewelry Ore". He did not say "Jewelry". So it remains to be clarified exactly what was tested. Was it ore? Was it jewelry? Perhaps it was all of the Jewelry Ore and all of the Jewelry from Brownie, and all of the jewelry ore from the other sources that purchased it from Goldmans and still exists today...he didn't say.

I believe Ron Feldman was talking about the above instance of testing in the video interview. Maybe there were some other tests, don't know. All I can tell from Dr. Glover's part one, is that the Superstition ores (Kochera, Camp, Jewelry) are mesothermic. Ok, that's fine. But there's no further information, such as percentage of minerals (Au, Ag, etc.) that would have gone a lot further to clarify exactly how similar these mesothermic samples are. I have no idea why this information wasn't included, while the results for the Black Queen were...

It may be I have missed a public airing of test results, but from what I can see, it's still very nebulous as to what was tested and if they were similar beyond being mesothermic. Best, Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco

You should be proud I was forced to read,

Barry Storm was born on the same day as me 6/4/1910 fifty Two years apart of course.
And he new Goldwater and he inspired a fellow TNer Joe and Chuck, and claimed he found 28oz of Gold, but still the color of the Ore yet escapes me.

alittle more digging in order.

Shame on you for this history lesson, for now I have a Jaded Mine

babymick1

Sorry for having forced you to read, I was just too lazy to get the book out and type it in here. I will try to avoid that in future.

 

[JohnWhite]

Great post Matthew, thanks for sharing this.

Mick I would have to respectfully disagree with you, that is a sworn affidavit from Holmes. That would carry some weight in court. It is a cut above the many clues and maps, which would not have much weight in court.

To all, the ores tested by Dr Glover didn't match the Dutchman ore, period. A 75% match isn't a match.

On the Dutchman quote traveling to California unquote, I would like to see where this is coming from. Waltz is documented in California before he moved to Arizona, but I have never seen anything about him ever returning to California. Thanks in advance,

Well Oro...I admit that I may be wrong about the Dutchman traveling to CA...I believe that I had read one of your earlier posts that he had lived in CA prior to moving to AZ...Who is to say that the Dutchman did not bring his stash of ore from CA to his new home in AZ...

I am certain that IF I were in a similar situation...I would make sure that I take ore or diamonds to my new home, IF I were ever able to locate said deposits...And IF I were to move...I would want to have a little something to tide me over in my old age...

Who knows IF the characters in the past involved in the history of the LDM were 100% honest, Oro...All I am trying to get across is, through what I have experienced, there are quite a few shady characters involved in the treasure trade...I believe that I have even read that you were conned out of a platinum deposit in AK...But who is to say...Maybe it is all in my mind...Maybe I am just imagining things...

 

[wrmickel1]

Gold White

Oroblanco

Every person that's been to court puts there hand on the Bible, Then conminces to lieing
Now do I think he's lied, No he's not on trail, But the things he's
saying are told to him by his father, Which a lot of it goes in file 13 for me.

Waltz is dieing so he gives his goldmine to a man he told I'll shoot you next time if you follow me again, Holmes account!
Or Too a Hot Young Woman who took care of him, who he borrowed money to, and mostly had feelings for her.

which is more probable,

babymick1

 

[Old]

Jim,

In all this I'm taking what is said by all parties at face value. Ron Feldman is very credible in what he has revealed. Matthew is very credible in what he has revealed. Although they reach different conclusions, I don't see very much difference in the factual information either of them has shared. Obviously both of them know a lot more about this than I do. There could be parts of this story I do not know that could change my thoughts. I haven't seen the actual test results. I'm taking the word of the men who have. I'm just the curious seeker trying to sort it out based on what's put before us.

Contrary to what some may tell you......there is going to be variances in the chemical make up of ore samples coming out of the same mine. That part doesn't bother me. What is telling is whether or not the ores share a common event that exclude them as different from other samples. We have that in this analysis. What's not to like about that

One either believes the results or not. If unbiased analysis given by professionals in the field (which isn't in dispute as best I know) isn't accepted, then all this wishing for a definitive analysis is just ........not productive.

 

[wrmickel1]

Jim,

In all this I'm taking what is said by all parties at face value. Ron Feldman is very credible in what he has revealed. Matthew is very credible in what he has revealed. Although they reach different conclusions, I don't see very much difference in the factual information either of them has shared. Obviously both of them know a lot more about this than I do. There could be parts of this story I do not know that could change my thoughts. I haven't seen the actual test results. I'm taking the word of the men who have. I'm just the curious seeker trying to sort it out based on what's put before us.

Contrary to what some may tell you......there is going to be variances in the chemical make up of ore samples coming out of the same mine. That part doesn't bother me. What is telling is whether or not the ores share a common event that exclude them as different from other samples. We have that in this analysis. What's not to like about that

One either believes the results or not. If unbiased analysis given by professionals in the field (which isn't in dispute as best I know) isn't accepted, then all this wishing for a definitive analysis is just ........not productive.

Old sorry to Crash

But I do believe the Test is legitimate, What bothers me is the Match Case or is it a cigarette case,
I never seen it but in a pic, Now I'm a jewelry maker, But I don't know if the piece was cut from a solid chunk of ore
or the quarts and gold were inlaid into the piece over a casted box. The pic is all I've seen, Now to me it looks to be a Russian piece know as fabrijai (spelled Wrong) which would been cut from one piece then shaped and scribed.
Which the jeweler might have been a Russian in Phoenix.

Now with inlays I'd rather test the glue used to hold the inlays,

But does anyone know when the match case came on the seen, And when the first pic of it showed up.

Babymick1

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,

In all this I'm taking what is said by all parties at face value. Ron Feldman is very credible in what he has revealed. Matthew is very credible in what he has revealed. Although they reach different conclusions, I don't see very much difference in the factual information either of them has shared. Obviously both of them know a lot more about this than I do. There could be parts of this story I do not know that could change my thoughts. I haven't seen the actual test results. I'm taking the word of the men who have. I'm just the curious seeker trying to sort it out based on what's put before us.

Contrary to what some may tell you......there is going to be variances in the chemical make up of ore samples coming out of the same mine. That part doesn't bother me. What is telling is whether or not the ores share a common event that exclude them as different from other samples. We have that in this analysis. What's not to like about that

One either believes the results or not. If unbiased analysis given by professionals in the field (which isn't in dispute as best I know) isn't accepted, then all this wishing for a definitive analysis is just ........not productive.

Hi Old,

I agree with you on pretty much everything above. I'm also inclined to believe Dr. Glover, Ron Feldman, Matthew and others at face value. I don't assign anything nefarious in why the mineral analysis was left out of Dr. Glover's Pt 1...could be as simple as the editor wanted it out, or the specimen owners wanted it kept close-hold. Any number of reasons. Like you, I'm glad they share what they feel comfortable sharing. All I was saying, that the test results that have been made public, that I have seen, (which is only Dr. Glover's Pt 1), only show that they are all mesothermic. Nothing more. Also, I only disagreed with a small part of a statement from an earlier post below (which I should have been more clear about) :

"The matchbox ore which took a so journey outside the family matches those items kept by the family. That's definitive. They all match to the same source with a high degree of probability."

I just didn't see that it was definitive, with the limited information that I have seen. That's all. Everything else I'm with ya! Best, Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Well Oro...I admit that I may be wrong about the Dutchman traveling to CA...I believe that I had read one of your earlier posts that he had lived in CA prior to moving to AZ...Who is to say that the Dutchman did not bring his stash of ore from CA to his new home in AZ...

I am certain that IF I were in a similar situation...I would make sure that I take ore or diamonds to my new home, IF I were ever able to locate said deposits...And IF I were to move...I would want to have a little something to tide me over in my old age...

Who knows IF the characters in the past involved in the history of the LDM were 100% honest, Oro...All I am trying to get across is, through what I have experienced, there are quite a few shady characters involved in the treasure trade...I believe that I have even read that you were conned out of a platinum deposit in AK...But who is to say...Maybe it is all in my mind...Maybe I am just imagining things...

Okay thanks John, had me curious about the part of traveling to CA. And yes I did lose a rather valuable claim in Alaska but it was gold not platinum, and there was not a con job it was through a court battle. Even had the state of Alaska on my side and still lost.

Sorry for the off topic part there.

Mick and all, we are talking about a legendary lost gold mine. There is a certain amount of documentation, and many, many claims of people saying they have found it. So everyone is welcome to decide for themselves naturally, it is easy to just say it was all a hoax to start with, or that X mine is it, or the Pit mine boys got it all, or Joe Deering got it, Joe Moraga found it, and on and on it goes. But really until someone comes up with ore that actually MATCHES the mineral makeup of Waltz's ore, the mine remains lost. Sorry if this rubs some the wrong way but otherwise we have to start passing out congratulations to over 200 people for over 200 different places.

One other thing, but if the Pit mine crew believes that they have found the LDM, then great for them, my apologies for not being convinced. Also, any ore sample that has visible SILVER in it is going to be a red herring, for the amount of silver found in the only assay done (Joe Porterie) had very little silver compared to the gold.

Please do continue;

 

[wrmickel1]

Yes Agreed Oro

But John was right, The Match Box was made in San Francisco, and JL&Company and the gold with silver in white quarts
is pretty common there. Now I heard it was done in Phoenix, Just another piece that will get filed 13. Now is there legitimate record of John P other then Holmes said so, or his son.

So if there is no know source of Dutchman's Gold it will have to be done another way in the end with out all the nonsense. Now I'm not one to put any value in a piece or two, with it's just a coincidence that they were made in Cali,
Cali has a good supply of this type gold and JL a store there selling exactly the same stuff.

Way to thin. I'll even predict that the one it was bought from lived in Cali or was from there.
So do you know who sold the pieces to Clay.

I'll check the seller bio out,

babymick1

 

[markmar]

Gold White

Oroblanco

Every person that's been to court puts there hand on the Bible, Then conminces to lieing
Now do I think he's lied, No he's not on trail, But the things he's
saying are told to him by his father, Which a lot of it goes in file 13 for me.

Waltz is dieing so he gives his goldmine to a man he told I'll shoot you next time if you follow me again, Holmes account!
Or Too a Hot Young Woman who took care of him, who he borrowed money to, and mostly had feelings for her.

which is more probable,

babymick1

Mick

Unfortunately Waltz did't give the coords to anybody , which would been the easiest way to find his mine/tunnel .
You are free to believe what version of the story you like , or what version fits better to your search area . But think , Waltz gave clues from two different directions to two different parties for one reason : to help each other , and mixing their info , to find the mines . Something like the cross crossing gun shots .The parties acted not so altruistic with the results we know .
And at the end , if you will not find the LDM , don't be disapointed . You could become an actor or to write a book .

 

[wrmickel1]

Markmar

Its not a twist to make things fit, It's to fit the actual evidence in its proper order.

Holmes is pretty much out of the game he was a secondary source

as for the Match Box the story changed from the original version

finnaly ended up as Holmes Had Them Made, Not True at all!

Its not me twisting the facts to fit a story I'm the one who's gonna tear it apart,

See match and cigarette case were quite the rage back then, and there's other cases that match the one in Question

made by who, yeah you know. How bout match that gold case to a gold case made by the same company with white quarts gold and silver.

But it will never happen, maybe when the pieces change hands.

babymick1 take care Marius

 

[wrmickel1]

So if any one would have dug a little on the box you would have found it's in laid

The stock box it self will be a consistent 10/14/18 k no variation in gold content most like from a totally different gold source. A quick non evasive test of the inter box would confirm that. The inlays come from a small prize piece of gold
encrusted white quarts. Fitted nicely around the box and banded with thin decorative gold strips from another source to.

Now your all to believe it's all Dutchman's Ore,
So what part is, your guess, The same would hold true for the other pieces.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

So if any one would have dug a little on the box you would have found it's in laid

The stock box it self will be a consistent 10/14/18 k no variation in gold content most like from a totally different gold source. A quick non evasive test of the inter box would confirm that. The inlays come from a small prize piece of gold
encrusted white quarts. Fitted nicely around the box and banded with thin decorative gold strips from another source to.

Now your all to believe it's all Dutchman's Ore,
So what part is, your guess, The same would hold true for the other pieces.

babymick1

mick..the correct term would be intarsia...not inlay[h=3][/h]

 

[wrmickel1]

mick..the correct term would be intarsia...not inlay

Thanks Dave

But the last piece of solid proof I just got is the fatal Shot.

Waltz passed in 1881, And John Levy & Company Closed its doors in 1881. So that makes the Match Box made
at the Time Waltz was alive.

babymick1

 

[JohnWhite]

Okay thanks John, had me curious about the part of traveling to CA. And yes I did lose a rather valuable claim in Alaska but it was gold not platinum, and there was not a con job it was through a court battle. Even had the state of Alaska on my side and still lost.

Sorry for the off topic part there.

Mick and all, we are talking about a legendary lost gold mine. There is a certain amount of documentation, and many, many claims of people saying they have found it. So everyone is welcome to decide for themselves naturally, it is easy to just say it was all a hoax to start with, or that X mine is it, or the Pit mine boys got it all, or Joe Deering got it, Joe Moraga found it, and on and on it goes. But really until someone comes up with ore that actually MATCHES the mineral makeup of Waltz's ore, the mine remains lost. Sorry if this rubs some the wrong way but otherwise we have to start passing out congratulations to over 200 people for over 200 different places.

One other thing, but if the Pit mine crew believes that they have found the LDM, then great for them, my apologies for not being convinced. Also, any ore sample that has visible SILVER in it is going to be a red herring, for the amount of silver found in the only assay done (Joe Porterie) had very little silver compared to the gold.

Please do continue;

Further proof about filing a claim...Sorry to hear that Oro...Thanks for clearing that up...

Sorry for going off the subject as well...

 

[JohnWhite]

Thanks Dave

But the last piece of solid proof I just got is the fatal Shot.

Waltz passed in 1881, And John Levy & Company Closed its doors in 1881. So that makes the Match Box made
at the Time Waltz was alive.

babymick1

Well babymick1...I am certain that there are those hardcore LDM seekers who will insist that they closed their doors in San Francisco and traveled to Arizona just to make the items coveted by Dutchman hunters...Because they were paid under the table with a large amount of Dutchman ore and the amount was such that they could retire in style in AZ...LOL

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Dave

But the last piece of solid proof I just got is the fatal Shot.

Waltz passed in 1881, And John Levy & Company Closed its doors in 1881. So that makes the Match Box made
at the Time Waltz was alive.

babymick1

Sorry for having to disagree with you on that, for the statement about what company made the matchbox is SPECULATION, not fact.

I would also point out that the Holmes affidavit states that HE had it made from Waltz's ore, he didn't BUY it.

You are certainly welcome to believe or disbelieve as you choose, but the fact is Holmes swore that affidavit, and it would not make any sense at all for him to lie about it. Why not? Because Holmes had been accused of stealing the ore from Waltz. You can toss out the Holmes manuscript, but the affidavit is a different deal.

Also, there is reason to believe that Reiney Petrasch and his brother ended up with the records from Waltz. There is a letter in which it is mentioned that they were about to give up on searching for the mine, but after looking over Waltz's papers, the receipts for shipping a quarter million dollars in ore convinced the Petrasch brothers that Waltz must have had a rich mine just as he had told Reiney. I would also point out that actions speak louder than words, and the Petrasch brothers continued to search for the mine for a long time. Remember it was Reiney Petrasch that had been sent by Waltz to dig up the gold ore that was then used to help Julia Thomas save her business, so Reiney Petrasch had seen and handled the ore. If it was gold coins or bars, Reiney Petrasch would have never believed that Waltz had a rich gold mine.

You seem to ignore the point that Waltz had tried to tell his friends Julia and Reiney how to get to the mine, if it was in California then why did he point at the Superstitions and tell them the mine is there? The clear conclusion is that Julia and Reiney just didn't pay attention while Waltz was alive and then couldn't find it.

Remember also, Waltz told Reiney Petrasch, quote "Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" Unquote

I think I need more coffee.

 

[wrmickel1]

No it's not, Actual Statement

There was only one company in San Francisco JL& Company. 1855 to 1881

What need a pic of a almost Identical Box the inlays are different by all the same built the same, Don't know who your trying to defend in this. Simply put The Box Predates Waltz's Death.
There were marks on them I'll bet their is none on the one in question. Buffed off most likely.

There's know doubt were the box came from so if your friend would like to put it to the test I'll be happy to prove
there's controlled processed gold mostly in it with the inlay's as natural.

Gee I'll go get a affidavit then you should believe,me over real proof.

Affidavit, is so far from fact, How can you believe it.

babymick1

Take Care Babymick1

 

[markmar]

Mick

Why you don't make a video with your thoughts on Superstitions Mountains series ? It will don't make much difference with the other .