the priest map or witch map

[393stroker]

I`d like to explore that big cave/hole about .34 mi. to the SE where you marked another cave.

 

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[Quinan Bear]

Ah yes, that would be the one that was discribed as having "a prospector with his burro heading to his mine in the distance" I saw that one in one of the photos that "dsoltesz" posted on google earth, if you find that pic? look to the left and a bit lower to see the man in stone. I think the pic is called "Junction of Calvary and dutchmans trails"

 

[Quinan Bear]

I have found a place that matched many of the lost dutchman's discriptions while i was trying to figure out the stone maps. I saw a large arrow in the landscape, then a triangle of stones with a fallen tree that had a branch pointing away from Weaver's Needle, next to that was a well used trail that was in a small north trending canyon, at the head of that canyon was a 2 room house, along the way, was three wikiups high up and it was within the 2.5 miles from weaver's, and a wide trail that passed right near it all. everything matched up, but i gave up on it because i was looking for the locations of the stone maps. Here are pics from google of those markers.
#1 2 room house
#2 3 wikiups high up
#3 3 stones in a triangle and a fallen tree with one limb pointing away from weaver's needle.

 

[Quinan Bear]

Maybe difficult from where you took the picture from but not if you Come from the side, Remember !!! and i do recall you saying that the mexicans had a camp further up the canyon, maybe the foot path is near there...... If you would like, i could post a better pic from google earth showing the location a little better for the rest to get a better view of the area.

From where I took that pic, you do "Come in from the side". On a very old trail. It's no where near the top of the hill. You can post whatever you like. And I hope the guys you have working for you aren't who I think they are. If it is, I hope you're not paying them....

I mean you no offense, it's just that I get daily messages from people telling me they think I've got it all "figured out", I just need a little help with the final pieces, and they know exactly what I should do. I don't mind getting messages asking for help with things like supplies I suggest, routes, etc. I don't mind helping out. I've spent a Lot of time in there. About 26 trips now in less than two years and I haven't died. Never even been in a jam. I went 21 miles in 10 hours once. With a two hour break in between. These types questions I don't mind.

Enough with the suggestions though. Any questions I have unanswered can probably only be answered by one or two people, and they are most likely never going to tell me. I'm the only one who can answer for me what I need to know, and if this friggin place would just cool off even a little bit, I'd have my answer.

Thanks
Travis

Travis;

You have sent me a massage stating how upset you are at what i have posted. I would like to say, in my defence. I have made a remark of posting a better pic for others to see the area better, and you replied, that you didn't care what i posted (see above quotes). Now that i have done what i said i would, you are upset..... If you didn't want me to post a better pic of the area, then you should have said so. If you are upset because of what was posted, then you should have just said, No please don't post a better pic of the area...... I gave you a heads-up and you gave the ok. So don't be mad at me...

I don't know if the LDM is there or not, but i do know that the trail on the stone maps point to that spot. I also believe that the horse map shows that spot too.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Travis;

You have sent me a massage stating how upset you are at what i have posted. I would like to say, in my defence. I have made a remark of posting a better pic for others to see the area better, and you replied, that you didn't care what i posted (see above quotes). Now that i have done what i said i would, you are upset..... If you didn't want me to post a better pic of the area, then you should have said so. If you are upset because of what was posted, then you should have just said, No please don't post a better pic of the area...... I gave you a heads-up and you gave the ok. So don't be mad at me...

I don't know if the LDM is there or not, but i do know that the trail on the stone maps point to that spot. I also believe that the horse map shows that spot too.

Dave

You know the EXACT reason im upset. If you choose to make it seem like its anything other than the reason I gave you, then you're a liar.

You've received my response. I strongly suggest you take the advice I gave you at the end of that message.

Travis

 

[Quinan Bear]

I DID post the real reason why your upset and the post that you put out saying that you didn't care what i posted.
I don't care if you think you have found the LDM or not, or that you found things there that support your idea. Document it all and perhaps you can make some money selling the book, lol. No mining is permited there so getting the gold is out of the question.

I am also documenting my findings of the mines shown on the stone maps, Two of those are in your area as i said before. Best of luck to you and your LDM. As for the end of your message... I never lie about who i am. I don't take threats lightly!

Out of all these mines, either the LDM or those on the stone maps. There is only one that would make a person very rich. That would be "The gold Vault". That is the only one that would be likely to have a treasure inside and the only one that you would be able to get a treasure trove permit for. The only thing that blocks the entrance, is one stone and that can be moved easily by getting on it and leaning in one direction causing the stone to move and show the opening. This vault/cave, opens to a vase opening supported by a vaulted ceilling of granite. The entrance faces west and is on the southern end of a mountain range. You can see Weaver's needle when you are at the entrance. the sun shines through the entrance, onto the treasure at a certain time of the day.
Try to find that information in your books LMAO!!! I assure you that it is real !!!

 

[cactusjumper]

I DID post the real reason why your upset and the post that you put out saying that you didn't care what i posted.
I don't care if you think you have found the LDM or not, or that you found things there that support your idea. Document it all and perhaps you can make some money selling the book, lol. No mining is permited there so getting the gold is out of the question.

I am also documenting my findings of the mines shown on the stone maps, Two of those are in your area as i said before. Best of luck to you and your LDM. As for the end of your message... I never lie about who i am. I don't take threats lightly!

Out of all these mines, either the LDM or those on the stone maps. There is only one that would make a person very rich. That would be "The gold Vault". That is the only one that would be likely to have a treasure inside and the only one that you would be able to get a treasure trove permit for. The only thing that blocks the entrance, is one stone and that can be moved easily by getting on it and leaning in one direction causing the stone to move and show the opening. This vault/cave, opens to a vase opening supported by a vaulted ceilling of granite. The entrance faces west and is on the southern end of a mountain range. You can see Weaver's needle when you are at the entrance. the sun shines through the entrance, onto the treasure at a certain time of the day.
Try to find that information in your books LMAO!!! I assure you that it is real !!!

Actually, I believe it's on the southern end of Black Top Mesa.

Joe

 

[Quinan Bear]

That's the story about two men climbing there and found a treasure by mistake by moving a stone and then never finding it again after one returned years later and blasting the south side trying to find it. Unless they were mistaken on where they were? that would not be the same one. Besides, that story says that they saw the treasure when the stone moved. This place a talk about, you would need to enter the vault/cave to see the treasure.

 

[cactusjumper]

That's the story about two men climbing there and found a treasure by mistake by moving a stone and then never finding it again after one returned years later and blasting the south side trying to find it. Unless they were mistaken on where they were? that would not be the same one. Besides, that story says that they saw the treasure when the stone moved. This place a talk about, you would need to enter the vault/cave to see the treasure.

QB,

It was Dale Howard and his partner who found that cave. One of them fell against a boulder, and it pivoted open. There was a pile of ore in the entrance. They did not go into the cave.

On the other hand, you could be right about them not being on the south end of Black Top. Of course they did take the time to make a map. I helped Dale search for that opening, and he seemed pretty sure that was where it was.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Tom Kollenborn tells the story of another treasure cave in this week's Chronicle.

http://www.ajnews.com/vol16/082712/0827_com_AJNW_A7.pdf

 

[somehiker]

Needle Canyon is also where Bob Brady was said to have found a cave with gold bars.
Harry L. France claimed to have found a similar cache in West Boulder Canyon.
Seems like the 1970's were a good time to look for caves of gold bars.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

Needle Canyon is also where Bob Brady was said to have found a cave with gold bars.
Harry L. France claimed to have found a similar cache in West Boulder Canyon.
Seems like the 1970's were a good time to look for caves of gold bars.

Regards:SH.

Lots of claims all over the place then - it was time to entice the next generation of searchers. Got to chum the waters you know.

 

[cactusjumper]

Needle Canyon is also where Bob Brady was said to have found a cave with gold bars.
Harry L. France claimed to have found a similar cache in West Boulder Canyon.
Seems like the 1970's were a good time to look for caves of gold bars.

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

Actually, Bob Brady's find was not in Needle Canyon, but on the south end of Bluff Spring Mountain. It was up one the mountain, not in the canyon. I knew a number of the men who were in that search, one of them being my Uncle Chuck. I don't think any of those folks are still alive, since Ernie Provence
passed away.

Springfield,

Because of the poor economy and job market, you will find more and more folks searching for lost treasure and gold mines. Young people have always been lured by stories of treasure, and it's no different today. The best we can do to make those searches less dangerous, is to educate them about the dangers they will encounter along the way. Forums like this, and events like the Rendezvous are a great place to get an education.

There will always be a next generation of searchers/treasure hunters and here will always be old-timers around to fire their imaginations. Some will loose their health and possibly their lives. Others may find what they seek and some will find riches they never expected. It's akin to letting the journey be your destination.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Wayne,

.... Springfield,

Because of the poor economy and job market, you will find more and more folks searching for lost treasure and gold mines. Young people have always been lured by stories of treasure, and it's no different today. The best we can do to make those searches less dangerous, is to educate them about the dangers they will encounter along the way. Forums like this, and events like the Rendezvous are a great place to get an education.

There will always be a next generation of searchers/treasure hunters and here will always be old-timers around to fire their imaginations. Some will loose their health and possibly their lives. Others may find what they seek and some will find riches they never expected. It's akin to letting the journey be your destination.

Take care,

Joe

I'm talking about the ramp-ups of 'information' that occurred in the 1930's and again in the 70's up to '80. Today's rational searchers are all products of the 70's surge in one way or another. The internet has broadened the audience, but as you know, what's to be found here is mostly garbage. In another 15 or 20 years, we'll probably be gone and the clues will be refreshened again.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

Each Dutch Hunter must follow his own path in this search. To ignore the history of those who came before them will create roadblocks that others have already solved or dismissed.......with reasoning. Others, including myself, have been researching the "facts" and "evidence" that has presented recently as well as in past decades. As a result of our research, historical truth has been revealed where complete fiction was being accepted as factual history.

Dr. Glover will be at this years Rendezvous, and has many notes and letters from the Ely family......put together by Sims. He will explain who removed certain passages from Sims' book, and why. He will tell us if Dick Holmes was actually in town the night Jacob Waltz died.

It is hoped, that the evidence that we have found, as well as what Dr. Glover has received, will become the accepted truth for those who come around in "15 or 20 years." I have always said that the NEW evidence that keeps surfacing, is not (likely) factual. I have always questioned it. You have to get as close to the events as possible to get some semblance of what really happened.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Quinan Bear]

Joe;

Thanks for the info about that cave. Did Dale ever discribe the rock ? The size and shape perhaps? Would you be so kind as to tell me more about the area he thought he was in ? Anything about the cave or area could be helpfull in helping pinpoint the cave im looking for. If your info proves helpfull? i will be sure to add you in, on everything that may come from it.

My cave was said to be high on the side of a mountain. A large rock pile from the making of the cave could be seen below. The natives tried to block the canyon entrance. The entrance was seen from weaver's. It was protected by nature (im thinking snakes and things like that). It was near a holy place or land that the natives held dear. The natives could see the cave entrance and watch it from a great distance.

That's all i can recall without going into my notes at the moment. I would need to send for them in Nova Scotia if i wanted to read them since i moved to Alberta.

Thanks in advance Joe.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe;

Thanks for the info about that cave. Did Dale ever discribe the rock ? The size and shape perhaps? Would you be so kind as to tell me more about the area he thought he was in ? Anything about the cave or area could be helpfull in helping pinpoint the cave im looking for. If your info proves helpfull? i will be sure to add you in, on everything that may come from it.

My cave was said to be high on the side of a mountain. A large rock pile from the making of the cave could be seen below. The natives tried to block the canyon entrance. The entrance was seen from weaver's. It was protected by nature (im thinking snakes and things like that). It was near a holy place or land that the natives held dear. The natives could see the cave entrance and watch it from a great distance.

That's all i can recall without going into my notes at the moment. I would need to send for them in Nova Scotia if i wanted to read them since i moved to Alberta.

Thanks in advance Joe.

QB,

I have a hard time remembering what I had for breakfast. My time with Dale was many, many years ago. I don't recall his describing the size or look/shape of the boulder. He had an elevation that he thought was pretty close, and he just kept blasting across the mountain hoping to find the cave.

Many old timers have "figured out" where a mine or treasure is.......kinda, and create a story to encourage others to invest in their search, or work on their dig. Maybe that's what Dale did. On the other hand, maybe it happened just the way he said it did.

There were a million boulders in the area we searched......maybe two million. I remember working my way through the mass of boulders and suddenly finding myself in mid-air and doing a complete flip. .45 fell out of my holster onto the rocks. Man was I pissed off.

I know I liked Dale, and totally believed his story. Course I was very young and believed in Jesuit treasure as well.

Sorry I can't really provide anything more substantial, other than to tell you your story fits Dale's story to a "T".

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

I'm sorry to hear Ernie passed away. I enjoyed talking to him last year. He had some tales for sure. Plus he knew where all the bones were buried

 

[somehiker]

David:

Here's another cache you can look for.
Tom K. could probably write an entire book about all the similar stories he has collected over the years.

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Joe Henry's Gold

The stories of the search for both Brady's and France's caves is discussed in this thread from 2002.
It's been a hot topic for many years.

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=187

Joe:

"Actually, Bob Brady's find was not in Needle Canyon, but on the south end of Bluff Spring Mountain. It was up one the mountain, not in the canyon. I knew a number of the men who were in that search, one of them being my Uncle Chuck. I don't think any of those folks are still alive, since Ernie Provence
passed away."


It was from Tracy's version of the story, quoted below, where I took the location of Brady's cave to be somewhere in Needle Canyon.

Tracy L Hawkins

Post subject: The Great Harry France caper Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:15 pm

Part Timer Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm Posts: 67 Location: Phoenix Az

To set this story stright I may have to wander around a bit as it involves several other people and events-- The incident Joe refers to took place about two years before Harry France came into the picture. I was not involved directly with that episode but knew about it from Chuck, Ernie and Dale. Bob Brady had found a cave with gold bars as I understand it , someplace in Needle Canyon close to Al's camp. I saw pictures of the bars that Ernie took ,if I remember right--Joe may know for sure . Harry Franc came into the picture with his tale of finding a cave that we took to be in West Bolder or ols West Boulder canyon. Harry was a long time friend of Bus Bonner and had shown Bus the bar he had and wanted Bus to find a group he trusted to take him back into the mountains to relocate the cave . Bus came to Dale Howard , Doc LaFave and myself with his story and gold bar ---here I digress a bit but Dale and I recognized the bar as being exactly like the bars Brady had brought out ---this ,of course , gave his story a BIG boost in creditability. Doc LaFave was a medical doctor from back east --around Boston I think--at the time he was on an extended leave and had a place in Whittman Az where he was working some gols ore from a mine north of New River. He was trucking it to his place and working it there--had quite a bit of success too----anyway --Doc had a couple friends back east that he called and they flew out here to hear the story for themselves and to question Harry . They were so impressed with what they saw and heard they joined with us and put up quite a bit of the money for the expodition--iI do not remember their names but they were both in the medical profession . The people involved were Harry , Bus Bonner , Dale Howard, Ernie Province, Chuck Rabaudo,Doc LaFave, his two friends and a contractor from Phoenix that Bus knew and three of his workers----I do not at this late date remember their names --its hell to get old Bob Ward wrote a small version of this tale in his book that I think most of you have read --it is very close to the facts We spent 90 days out there lookin in the areas Harry could lead us to but had no luck--I do not mean to imply we all spent 90 days continous in the mountains but some of us were in the camp most of the summer --we came out at differant times for supplies and to rest up ----As a writer one said " We found no gold but found the next best thing ---a beautiful place to look for it " Hope this clears up part of the tale TLH

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Tracy's memory was somewhat sketchy, much like mine today. As he stated, he was not involved in the Brady search.

I know that Chuck was searching up on the side of Bluff Spring. He was riding his horse through the brush and had the
hammer loop off his Colt. The going got steep and rough and eventually he turned around and headed back down.
At some point, he realized his gun was no longer in his holster. He looked, but couldn't find it.

He rode into Al's camp and told him what had happened. He pointed up at the area he had ridden and told Al if he could find his gun, he would give him fifty bucks. Two weeks later, Al called him and told him he had found the gun. When he
got the gun back it was covered in rust. Chuck took steel wool to the rust and got it all off, including the bluing. It was a second generation Colt.

That story stuck in my mind, and I have the Colt today. Had it re-blued and it looks like new.
_____________________________________________________

Here is what Tracy wrote a few posts later:

Tracy L Hawkins

Post subject: Harry gold bars Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:19 pm

Part Timer Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:39 pm Posts: 67 Location: Phoenix Az

Joe You bring up an intresting point about the caves --were ther one or two ---I don't know for sure but I believe old Harry was telling the truth as well as he could . I don't find it to hard to believe there are two stashes in the mountains . It is my beliefe that the mexican miners when the Apache were after them would have stashed the gold when their mules were picked off . I think they took the packs from the wounded mules and overloaded the remainder and when they camped at night hid what they could not carry. It would be reasonable to assume they woluld have unloaded the least valuable loads first and I feel this stash may be what the dutchman may have found . I think the miners stashed the more valuable gold --the bars --last in the cave Harry France found ----from the location he lead us to it would be only a short run to the massacure grounds . I think the gold found there was what they had in their saddle bags. Chuck did see the bar Harry had at my house in Wittman . I was there when Harry showed it to him . As far as the stash Brady "found " if I remember righ he claimed there were several leather bags of gold ore in the cave . Joe , do you remember if Chuck ever mentioned that Brady claimed there was an old wooden bed inside the cave I am sure someone will question my conclusions about the stashes but I have always read and heard there was a three day running fight with the Apaches before the massacure . Apache did not like to fight at night and would have given the mexicans time to hide the gold . The area I was told by Chuck and Ernie that Brady claimed was on the west side od Bluff Springs about half way up . Does this fit with what you remember Joe TLH

___________________________________________________________

Take care,

Joe