The Treasure of El Pensamiento (including Ruminahuis stash)

Hi CI

Yes, thank you - that's the chap who allegedly found the tunnel during the last Sanders trip and returned to recover what was supposedly there. I have looked into that angle as well.

The more you delve into this one, the better it gets.

What intrigues me about this particular legend is the fact, that even though there has been treasure reputedly uncovered at Sacambaya/Plazuela on different occasions, there always seems to be a little bit more left...

An account from a 'Jesuit' source claimed that they retrieved the treasure sometime in the early 19th century or possibly the late 18th century. Colonel Fawcett, when he visited the site, claimed that a Bolivian had recovered the cache already some years prior to his visit. He did not detail a source. Then there is the story from a local man who found a golden bell weighing approximately 40lbs with his two sons during which one died through an accident. They bought land and cattle with the funds but did not search any more. Even during the 1960s search, they found small amounts of silver items simply lying around.

Even if we critically look at the question of whether this is all a hoax and simply a ruse used to fleece investors and the alleged documents were 20th century forgeries, it doesn't stand-up to scrutiny. Prodgers was very well versed in the machinations of treasure hunting in South America. He went to great expense to visit Sacambaya and it nearly cost him his life. If the San Roman document was a forgery, why did he manage to track down the 'caretaker' who was being paid by San Roman's family? That native chap was very real and knew the details well.

The Bolivian president during the 1870s also made a search but was looking in the wrong location. He received his information from another source so the story has been going on from well before the 20th century which would not fit in with the "hoax" theory. Jesuit records have been searched but do not detail a "monastery" at the location. I believe this is where careless use of words can easily distort a treasure story. There was most definitely mining going on; records indicate 13 different mines which then collected the collective wealth which was stored in a central location. The site itself had been used since Inca - perhaps even pre-Inca - times, so there was a base to speak of. Even in this day and age the place itself is remote and no large-scale expeditions have been made since Sanders (unless we accept that Nolte retrieved the gold in 1938 with the Americans).

I was going over old threads last night and the sharp wily old Birdy had posted some decent information and I believe had even looked into the Indies archives in Sevilla to track down information related to Bolivia and this site in particular...

There was also an American lady who ran a mining operation near Sacambaya who told of surreptitious searches going on as the groups would stopover at her site.

It would seem there is meat on this bone, and I am feeling peckish!


IPUK
 

Hello IPUK

This may be of a little snack.....The Cornish-man named Tredinnick

Emily Greenslade MEDLON, who was born in 1862. In 1880 she married Philip TREDINNICK, a tin miner from Cornwall, England. During the 1880s the mines in Cornwall were going through a bad time and Philip decided to try his luck in Bolivia, leaving Emily at home with a son, William Greenslade TREDINNICK (1881), and a daughter, Margaret TREDINNICK (1884).
Philip never returned to England, but his son, William Greenslade TREDINNICK decided to follow his father to Bolivia after a few years in the army in England. He too never returned to England and I am told that he is buried in the English cemetery in La Paz.

However, he married Maria ABASTO in Bolivia and I understand that he had 4 children - Jack (1925), Eileen (1930), Felipe (1932) and William (1934). I know that Felipe was an ambassador for Bolivia and that he died on 1 July 2007. I also know that he had several children but I do not know all their names and dates of birth. I understand that Felipe's brother, William, moved to Brazil.

So you see decedents of Philip Tredinnick are still around. It is not beyond the realms of impossibility that some may of indeed gained documents or information via Prodgers before Prodgers left Bolivia and documents are now handed down through the large extended family?

Amy
 

Hello IPUK

This may be of a little snack.....The Cornish-man named Tredinnick

Emily Greenslade MEDLON, who was born in 1862. In 1880 she married Philip TREDINNICK, a tin miner from Cornwall, England. During the 1880s the mines in Cornwall were going through a bad time and Philip decided to try his luck in Bolivia, leaving Emily at home with a son, William Greenslade TREDINNICK (1881), and a daughter, Margaret TREDINNICK (1884).
Philip never returned to England, but his son, William Greenslade TREDINNICK decided to follow his father to Bolivia after a few years in the army in England. He too never returned to England and I am told that he is buried in the English cemetery in La Paz.

However, he married Maria ABASTO in Bolivia and I understand that he had 4 children - Jack (1925), Eileen (1930), Felipe (1932) and William (1934). I know that Felipe was an ambassador for Bolivia and that he died on 1 July 2007. I also know that he had several children but I do not know all their names and dates of birth. I understand that Felipe's brother, William, moved to Brazil.

So you see decedents of Philip Tredinnick are still around. It is not beyond the realms of impossibility that some may of indeed gained documents or information via Prodgers before Prodgers left Bolivia and documents are now handed down through the large extended family?

Amy





Hello CI


My deepest gratitude to you for digging- up this information. I have seen this repeated several times in different threads where you have committed your time, effort and resources to help and assist others. This is truly a kind trait of yours.

Thank you.

There are many who are suspicious on here and would not share absolutely anything and would gladly misdirect if it meant that "their" treasure was not impinged on in any way.

You truly have no such complex and indeed the absolute opposite is true.:thumbsup:

Getting back to the story, you have not given me a snack - more a veritable gastronomical delight. No wonder the Trio class you as a true treasure as well.

This Cornish chap did get the story form Prodgers but was responsible for dynamiting various spots at Sacambaya/ Plazuela. I do not know whether it's true, but it has been said that after one bout of blowing things up, there was an internal cave-in which lasted for an extended time.

I cannot wait to keep investigating this one as it is getting more and more intriguing.....

Thanking you again.


IPUK

NB. Do you feel it's a true legend?
 

Hello IPUK

I Suspect the story has a little more meat to it? But is there enough or anything left to chew on it?

Corina San Roman was born in 1874, to Manuel San Roman and Escolastica Caballero. Corina was born in 1874, in Cochabamba, Bolivia. Corina aged 34 married Carlos Schulze Sjurenburg aged 52 in 1908, at age 34 at their marriage place in Cochabamba, Bolivia..

Her husband Carlos Schulze Sjurenburg full name was born in 1856, to Guillermo Schulze and Eliza Schulze (born Sjurenburg). Guillermo was born in 1820, in Alemania.
Eliza was born in 1830, in Alemania.That was part of the old Germany before Germany was a unified country.

You might recall the story of Turks or Armenians searching the site in 1927? Well is not Turks or Armenians but people from an old part of Germany called "Alemania" Since Corina and the husbands family was from "Alemania" It does not take much imagination to link that the search from 12 months earlier from Cochabamba, Bolivia in 1927. Before the Sanders expedition in 1928 was from family members of Corina San Roman husbands family members? If not its quite possible the descendants still have information and original documents.

You may recall the sanders expedition entered a tunnel and found it empty. In fact on the hill it was claimed that Sanders expedition removed 40000 tons of rock in 4 months. A no mean feat with no result. They might of been beaten to the booty by a whole 12 months by family members through marriage of Corina San Roman? Who decided to recover the treasure themselves after Prodgers in his agreement Corina San Roman with failed to recover the treasure?

Edgar Sanders expeditie 1929.jpg

Amy
 

Last edited:
Hello IPUK Again

You might want to hunt down the following people Jose luis boggio and Luis Fernando Vera Lomparte. They are descendants of Corina San Roman.

Amy
 

Hey CI

Thank you very much for the nuggets of information regarding the San Roman family structure. I will most certainly look into it.

If I am not mistaken, that is why they refer to Germans as the "EL Alemen" in South America. It is starting to take shape the time line, that is. I honestly was unaware that there had been an expedition to the site in 1927, and as you rightly point out, it could have been by the family themselves and they could have struck lucky. Did Sanders ever refer to it?

I have requested some books on the subject and will continue to make enquiries and will hopefully get some more worthwhile information.

What strikes me about this story is how it differentiates in so many aspects from the more 'popular' ones. The location, the relative recent dates of expeditions, and how many characters have been positively identified.

Sanders should have stopped digging at the same spot well before reaching that enormous amount of earth. He should have focused more on discovering the right tunnel/passage and if we are to believe that Nolte did discover the treasure it wasn't that difficult to locate from the original spot.

But I can't fail to accept that there isn't something still there....
But, of course, the detailed research and planning needs to take place beforehand.

Heartfelt thanks to you for the additional information.


IPUK
 

Hey CI

Thank you very much for the nuggets of information regarding the San Roman family structure. I will most certainly look into it.

If I am not mistaken, that is why they refer to Germans as the "EL Alemen" in South America. It is starting to take shape the time line, that is. I honestly was unaware that there had been an expedition to the site in 1927, and as you rightly point out, it could have been by the family themselves and they could have struck lucky. Did Sanders ever refer to it?

I have requested some books on the subject and will continue to make enquiries and will hopefully get some more worthwhile information.

What strikes me about this story is how it differentiates in so many aspects from the more 'popular' ones. The location, the relative recent dates of expeditions, and how many characters have been positively identified.

Sanders should have stopped digging at the same spot well before reaching that enormous amount of earth. He should have focused more on discovering the right tunnel/passage and if we are to believe that Nolte did discover the treasure it wasn't that difficult to locate from the original spot.

But I can't fail to accept that there isn't something still there....
But, of course, the detailed research and planning needs to take place beforehand.

Heartfelt thanks to you for the additional information.


IPUK

Hello IPUK

There are some glaring inaccuracies to resolve before moving ahead with this treasure story.

Fact:1 There was no Jesuit by the name of "Gregorio San Roman" I found a list of all the Jesuits in Peru and upper Peru { now Bolivia ) I have the list of names of Jesuits who was in Peru and Bolivia.

Fact:2 Corina San Roman does not appear to be a direct descendant of Miguel pascal San Roman on time president of Peru. I have his extensive family tree

Fact:3 Miguel had no brother Gregorio San Roman.

Fact:4 Gregorio San Roman. is only half a name. Spanish tradition always add the mothers name to the name.

That may paint a bleak picture on the origins of this alleged treasure legend. However there is possibility that the original story via oral history was rather unintentionally misconstrued?

I might have found the source on where the story came from?

Amy
 

Here is pictures of the old Inca ruins of a fort. It appears from this the area had some sort of importance, even before Spanish colonization?

Amy


INCAN FORT SACAMBAYA 2.jpg

INCAN FORT SACAMBAYA 1.jpg
 

Hello IPUK

You might want to also read Charles wellington Furlong Papers?

FOLDER : 58. Sanders, Edgar and Elfrida (Sacambaya Exploration Company), 1926-1930.

FOLDER : 39. Sacambaya Exploration Company: Prospectus and applications for purchasing shares, 1927.

FOLDER : 40. The Sacambaya Exploration Company Limited (In Formation), 1927, apparently written by Edgar Sanders. Two incomplete copies and some loose pages. These were cut up by Furlong, who used sections in his notes for “Treasure Hunt.”

FOLDER : 41. The Story of the Jesuit Gold Mines in Bolivia and of the Treasure Hidden by the Sacambaya River by Edgar Sanders, ca. 1928.

FOLDER : 42. “Sacambaya's Sensational Rise and Fall,” from The South Pacific Mail, Valparaiso and Santiago, March 28, 1929.

FOLDER : 43. Sacambaya Exploration Company. Maps: One showing part of Bolivia where Furlong travelled to mining site, with attached note by Furlong; and two sketch maps.

Amy
 

:notworthy::notworthy:

I really do not have the words to describe my admiration and humble appreciation to you, CI.

To the annoyance of my wife and children, yesterday I spent the day going through Prodgers' book on two occasions. I think I can see where honest, simple but misdirecting errors were made in the writing.

I will go through the known story and Prodgers' account:

Dona Corina San Roman was alleged to be the daughter of ex-president General San Roman. Could this have been a misinterpretation or a line used to entice Prodgers?

It was said that the original document was left by a father San Roman to his brother the
Prefect of Callao. It was then passed to the ex-president and so to Corina. Nothing about direct familial ties there.

The document gave a general description of the type of place rather than a detailed account of the exact location. It simply also stated that there was a church, monastery and other building ruins located nearby. Corina said to Prodgers that the monastery was built by the Jesuits in 1635 and abandoned in 1735. She stated that the treasure was from an accumulation of 11 years from the El Carmen and Tres Titilias mines that 2k natives worked under fathers Gregorio, San Roman and seven other priests. The other seven died as well as the majority of the natives working on the site.

Corina said her father the ex-president sent £25 every Xmas through an employee of his, Zambrana, to a native called Ampuera to act as a caretaker to the site.

TBC
 

The ex-president wasn't interested in searching himself but didn't want anyone else looking for the treasure. He gave his copy to his daughter Corina. She mislaid it and had an uncle in Cochabamba who was a priest and had a copy which was the one shown to Prodgers. Nothing about originals or 'secret documents'?

According to Prodgers the first expedition to the site was by another ex-president- Malgarejo- and was unsuccessful. Another apparently in 1895 set out from Valparaiso but met with similar success.

Corina stated her uncle passed away in 1896. Prodgers started his search in 1905. He located both Zambrana and Ampuera. Ampuera said that as far as he knew, the bulk oh the treasure was still located where it was buried. It was also revealed by the old native that his grandfather had been with the living fathers when they concealed the treasure. Malgarejo had asked for Ampuera 's assistance but was declined. Ampuera had also found a 40lb golden bell himself. He identified Caballo Cunco as the treasure hill. The "egg-shaped stone" from Corina's document was quickly found and blown to smithereens. Ampuera mentioned to Prodgers that there had been aconvent at the site that his father said had been built in 1705 and abandoned in 1745. Variations to what Corina had said?

Prodgers found signs of human hands at work: animal bones buried, slabs of cut stone, wooden items such as corks etc..
During one interval when Prodgers was by himself at the site, two chaps found a very decent amount of silver plate near the ruins and quietly slipped away...
Prodgers said that there was many smaller treasures dotted around that the priests had also buried as the native owner of the land where the treasure site was situated, had also found a hoard of gold.


From Prodgers, looking at things critically, he didn't try too hard to substantiate the players in the story and simply went ahead and played it by ear. To be honest he spent more time hunting than actually looking for the right location as far as I can determine. I believe names, dates, relationships and directions were unintentionally confused which has led to some scepticism.


IPUK
 

Hello IPUK

There are some glaring inaccuracies to resolve before moving ahead with this treasure story.

Fact:1 There was no Jesuit by the name of "Gregorio San Roman" I found a list of all the Jesuits in Peru and upper Peru { now Bolivia ) I have the list of names of Jesuits who was in Peru and Bolivia.

Fact:2 Corina San Roman does not appear to be a direct descendant of Miguel pascal San Roman on time president of Peru. I have his extensive family tree

Fact:3 Miguel had no brother Gregorio San Roman.

Fact:4 Gregorio San Roman. is only half a name. Spanish tradition always add the mothers name to the name.

That may paint a bleak picture on the origins of this alleged treasure legend. However there is possibility that the original story via oral history was rather unintentionally misconstrued?

I might have found the source on where the story came from?

Amy



Hello CI

Looks like this one has got you hooked in small ways as well!:occasion14:

With regards to Fact 1, was there any San Roman who was a Jesuit or priest ?

Fact 2, do reckon that Corina may have tried to impress or legitimise herself to Prodgers by claiming she was the ex-president's daughter? If there is a Corina in the family tree, is she very far from the direct line of the ex-president?

Fact 3, did Miguel have any cousins by the name of Gregorio?

Fact 4, might have Prodgers mispronounced Gregorio 's full name by accident?


There is so many possible permutations with this story but if we look at the basic premis, then it seems there is most definitely there.:thumbsup:


IPUK
 

Here is pictures of the old Inca ruins of a fort. It appears from this the area had some sort of importance, even before Spanish colonization?

Amy


View attachment 1291791

View attachment 1291792



Thank you CI

This makes it all the more real. Prodgers gives details of how the Incas, then Spanish and then the Jesuits, treated Bolivia seriously with regards to mining and integral parts of their empires and organisations. This place had proper planning by the looks of it and was no mere outpost!


IPUK

PS. I yearn to explore such a place.....:walk::walk::walk::walk::walk::walk:
 

Hello IPUK

Great day today. Just got a very big bonus from one of trios projects that has come to Fruition. The trio have with the stroke of a pen doubled their total net worth. Irony is I probably never know which project came up trumps. Due to the usual non disclosure agreements they have in place with interested parties. They will just wink and tease me little, and say no need to drop me into bear pit with the details. Negotiating such projects is like "playing game of thrones" Crow once joked.

As for Sacambaya I am not convinced either way at present.

Although I have a developing theory on the original source of the story.

The documents originated via the president of Perus grandmother Gregoria Antonia de las Bravo born in 1757 - Puno. who married Miguel Antonio de San Roman Gonzalez He was the father of Melchor Pascal San Roman Born May 8, 1778 - Puno Peru
Baptized - Parroq San Juan de Puno Deceased in 1816 - executed by firing squad in Puno. Age at death: 38 years old Second Lieutenant of the Royal Armies and Captain of Insurgents.

His son saw his fathers execution aged 16 and set his life on the trail to become a soldier and politician and eventually president. His name of course was Miguel San Roman Meza.

Gregoria Antonia de las Bravo had a brother Fr Pedro Antonio Bravo Born 1746 Jesuit Priest of upper Peru. Expelled to Peninsula ( Spain ) in 1767.

So in effect the documents and information came from Gregoria Antonia de las Bravo's brother a Jesuit Fr Pedro Antonio Bravo the great uncle of Miguel San Roman Meza president of Peru was the source of the informnation?

As for Corina San Roman Caballo it is possible she was a distant family connection? Its possible a second great cousin from Miguel San Roman Meza president of Peru. However in fairness that connection need to be clarified....

There is a few reference books I am awaiting.

Miguelsanroman.png

Amy
 

Last edited:
Well CI, I really am getting an insight into how professional you are!:hello2:

Superb.

This is getting interesting and intriguing...

So the ex-president's granny was possibly (more than likely) the source of the story and had a brother who was a Jesuit who was expelled. This is starting to fall into place and has some very good similarities with the 'legend' story which has become slightly convoluted in some respects. The ex-pres obviously had the connections to delve deeper into the story and would have been not too far away from the date of the alleged concealment of the treasure to when he eventually became the president. It would have possibly been in the living memory of some folk if the ages of the natives involved is true.

It is then possible that Corina was a distant relative but knew the details and obviously used the family name to impress Prodgers and perhaps simply used the words "daughter", "father", "uncle" etc., to make her relationship seem closer to the Jesuit(s), ex-president and other players. Or Prodgers was careless when describing the connection.

It sounds as if the references you are awaiting will confirm more of the information and details.:thumbsup:

Your bonus from the Pirates is well-deserved as you've obviously played an integral part of their recent successes, so it's a well done you situation!

I've always had a sneaky suspicion that the chaps were Premier League, as they could access information, knew all the stories and legends, had sharp critical assessment skills and could smell bu!!##$! a mile off. They are also very disciplined, dedicated and focused in their pursuits!

I like...:notworthy:


Did they ever check the "Julius Nolte" character to verify Sanders' claim?


IPUK
 

Well CI, I really am getting an insight into how professional you are!:hello2:

Superb.

This is getting interesting and intriguing...

So the ex-president's granny was possibly (more than likely) the source of the story and had a brother who was a Jesuit who was expelled. This is starting to fall into place and has some very good similarities with the 'legend' story which has become slightly convoluted in some respects. The ex-pres obviously had the connections to delve deeper into the story and would have been not too far away from the date of the alleged concealment of the treasure to when he eventually became the president. It would have possibly been in the living memory of some folk if the ages of the natives involved is true.

It is then possible that Corina was a distant relative but knew the details and obviously used the family name to impress Prodgers and perhaps simply used the words "daughter", "father", "uncle" etc., to make her relationship seem closer to the Jesuit(s), ex-president and other players. Or Prodgers was careless when describing the connection.

It sounds as if the references you are awaiting will confirm more of the information and details.:thumbsup:

Your bonus from the Pirates is well-deserved as you've obviously played an integral part of their recent successes, so it's a well done you situation!

I've always had a sneaky suspicion that the chaps were Premier League, as they could access information, knew all the stories and legends, had sharp critical assessment skills and could smell bu!!##$! a mile off. They are also very disciplined, dedicated and focused in their pursuits!

I like...:notworthy:


Did they ever check the "Julius Nolte" character to verify Sanders' claim?


IPUK

Hello IPUK

I suspect the story of Julius Nolte" character was a BS story from Edgar Sanders. Who to his credit did marvelous work to get financial backing for his 1928 Sacambaya expedition, Told that story as a face saving story of his failure. Its clear that Sanders told a few porkies to get interest in the expedition that came back to haunt him.

I checked records pertaining to Julius Nolte through various records. One record him leaving the country, no record of him re-entering the country. Not even a passport application which was mandatory afterWW1. Even with shipping or aircraft records.
Then I checked the story of this alleged Julius Nolte in California records Nothing. Even records of the Sanders expedition recorded in British shipping records leaving and returning UK nothing on this alleged Julius Nolte. As for him being an engineer. No university collage records or mention of him in year book across the US. in fact the ones I found by that name never went out of the country ever and had much different back grounds....

Sanders lied with some things as a ends to a means.....However in the end it added ammunition to his critics that made him lose credibility. Especially the Catholic freeman newspapers of 1928.

In all Sanders did more damage to the credibility of the story than anyone else?

Amy
 

Hi CI

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Had a feeling as much. Sanders' attempt to make it seem as he was on the cusp of discovery, has given much ammunition to distractors and it might even be possible that the silver cross he uncovered was planted. He also played a foolish game with the Bolivian authorities when he discovered they were opening his mail, and his stunt backfired spectacularly.

I recall the article you mentioned which really tore shreds from Sanders' account, and all in all, it was a spectacular failure from him and considerable funds wasted.

I am waiting on the book from the chaps who went to Sacambaya in the 1960s, if possible, I will attempt to make contact with them to see the comment one of them made about "it (the treasure) being in one of possible 30 sites". Was this because they came across further information afterwards or even that they should have searched elsewhere at the location?

In your opinion, was the site a church, convent, monastery, fort, administration centre or even a combination of these?
It would seem that the site acted as a local headquarters of sort and if gold was accumulated, then perhaps there is possibly a cache or two.

IPUK
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top