Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
- 7,838
- 9,830
- Detector(s) used
- Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
Warning - rant - feel free to skip this one. 
Marius amigo I realize that English is not your native language, and we almost always end up in circular discussions like the Dinosaur mountain deal.
Do you really think that DIFFERENT types of league and vara were used in the Molina documents, to lure and confuse? How would the persons that the maps were made FOR, ever figure out what was intended? So I must respectfully disagree in a sense, that the measurements on the Molina documents (map included) are not intended to confuse and mislead, they are straightforward - yet without the KEY to the document these measurements will only take you on a tour of some gorgeous country in Santa Cruz county Arizona. There are mines there to be sure, and so far NO ONE seems to be able to tie in those KNOWN mines with the Molina document. Comprende amigo?
Do you know where the San Ramon spring is located? I do - and it is not where many people think it to be. There are issues of access involved too, remember not ALL lands in the area are "public" at all, quite a bit is either private land or Indian reservations. So it is a tricky proposition even if you know exactly where all the mines and treasure are hidden. Do you know the regulations involved if you were to find a treasure hidden on an Indian reservation? It is not a simple thing. Not impossible to get through legally but much more complicated than if you found it on private or Federal land.
I think that a part of the problem in finding these mines and treasure referred to in the Molina document(s) is that Tumacacori was hardly the only mission in Pimeria Alta, and certainly not the only mission that had mines. People too often forget that besides the little visita at Tumacacori (for it was only a visita in the Jesuit period) there were missions and visitas at Arivaca, Guevavi (which was the "main" mission for the southern visitas) San Xavier del Bac, Sonoita, even Calabasas which was a gold mining and farming mission. No one looks for the treasure of Calabasas, even though that mission almost certainly would have been amassing gold from its Indians working the mines of that area. Even north of Tucson there were small missions and eastward into Cochise county, where shortly after the Jesuits were expelled, a regular Spanish fort or Presidio was built at a place called Terrenate not to mention the Spanish fort (Presidio) of Presidio San Agustín del Tucson at Tucson, established in 1775. Does anyone search for the treasures of these other missions? They may not have accumulated so much as is listed on the Molina document of course, but it seems likely that several of them would have had impressive treasures in their own right. Remember at San Xavier del Bac, the silver altar and ornaments seen by visitors was estimated to be worth some $40,000 in 1850 dollars at that, not to mention the evidence of smelting activities at the same mission. Where did all that silver and gold go?
I am getting carried away here and an ancient proverb comes to mind - "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest." (gospel of Thomas, 5) If you hunt through the old newspaper accounts, you will see quite a few claims of having discovered the lost mines of Tumacacori, in fact more mines than are believed to have existed. Every old mine found, that was rich in silver and/or gold and looked old enough to be the work of the Indians under the Jesuits, was pronounced to be the lost Tumacacori mine, or the Purisma Concepcion or the Opata. Not one of our earlier treasure hunters seems to have investigated the fact that Guevavi had mines, Arivaca had mines, even the little mission at Tucson and Franciscan mission near what is Phoenix today and even Sonoita had mines. These are not famous (with one or two possible exceptions like the lost Pima and La Esmeralda) so our treasure hunters never seek them. In my opinion, only a couple of the several dozen old mines found, are really associated with Tumacacori at all, and no one seems to see how to tie them in to the Molina documents/map. Heck after the time of the Jesuits, the Franciscans and even at least one Augustinian padre were active in seeking mines in Arizona, the first placer gold production from Arizona being credited to an Augustinian padre working out of Arivaca in the Baboquiviri area. I do not know why there is so little interest in the Franciscan period, when there is every reason to believe they were mining silver and gold just as were the Jesuits, and they too were kicked out of Mexico in 1823 (or '21, can't recall offhand right now and not willing to hunt it up) they certainly did not take any treasure out with them.
More opinion, so please feel free to disagree happily (To everyone reading this rant) but the Molina "map" is not a map at all, it is an attempt to create a map from the Molina document directions. Someone laid out on paper locations and distances as stated in the Molina text, and in support of this contention there is not ONE landmark on the Molina "map" that is not in the Molina text. If it were a true map, we should see some kinds of landmarks like mountains, rivers, trails, and this is strikingly absent on the Molina map. You could sit down with a paper, compass and straight edge and create your own "Molina map" and it would be as accurate and of as much use as the one posted in this thread.
Sorry for the long winded rant, this particular topic has been a kind of 'pet project' of mine since I first got into treasure hunting as an outgrowth of prospecting. Heck my nickname came from it, in a way, for I was convinced that the Purisma Concepcion was located very near the old ghost town of Oro Blanco in a side canyon where several ancient trails seem to lead. Those trails I am now convinced are not man-made but are cowpaths and animal trails, and Purisma Concepcion is not there, but at any rate you can find evidence of mining and prospecting which is clearly from the early 1800s and 1700s all over southern Arizona even in the Chiricahua mountains and as far up the Colorado river as Quartzsite. I wish that some treasure hunters would expend some more effort and time in researching the history of the region for I believe this would lead to greater successes, and not to limit the scope of research to the Jesuit period alone as so many appear to.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, my apologies if anything posted is offensive for nothing was intended that way, if you disagree with what I have said I have no problem in agreeing to disagree, and wish you the very best of luck. Thank you for your time and I hope you all have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco
Marius amigo I realize that English is not your native language, and we almost always end up in circular discussions like the Dinosaur mountain deal.
Do you really think that DIFFERENT types of league and vara were used in the Molina documents, to lure and confuse? How would the persons that the maps were made FOR, ever figure out what was intended? So I must respectfully disagree in a sense, that the measurements on the Molina documents (map included) are not intended to confuse and mislead, they are straightforward - yet without the KEY to the document these measurements will only take you on a tour of some gorgeous country in Santa Cruz county Arizona. There are mines there to be sure, and so far NO ONE seems to be able to tie in those KNOWN mines with the Molina document. Comprende amigo?
Do you know where the San Ramon spring is located? I do - and it is not where many people think it to be. There are issues of access involved too, remember not ALL lands in the area are "public" at all, quite a bit is either private land or Indian reservations. So it is a tricky proposition even if you know exactly where all the mines and treasure are hidden. Do you know the regulations involved if you were to find a treasure hidden on an Indian reservation? It is not a simple thing. Not impossible to get through legally but much more complicated than if you found it on private or Federal land.
I think that a part of the problem in finding these mines and treasure referred to in the Molina document(s) is that Tumacacori was hardly the only mission in Pimeria Alta, and certainly not the only mission that had mines. People too often forget that besides the little visita at Tumacacori (for it was only a visita in the Jesuit period) there were missions and visitas at Arivaca, Guevavi (which was the "main" mission for the southern visitas) San Xavier del Bac, Sonoita, even Calabasas which was a gold mining and farming mission. No one looks for the treasure of Calabasas, even though that mission almost certainly would have been amassing gold from its Indians working the mines of that area. Even north of Tucson there were small missions and eastward into Cochise county, where shortly after the Jesuits were expelled, a regular Spanish fort or Presidio was built at a place called Terrenate not to mention the Spanish fort (Presidio) of Presidio San Agustín del Tucson at Tucson, established in 1775. Does anyone search for the treasures of these other missions? They may not have accumulated so much as is listed on the Molina document of course, but it seems likely that several of them would have had impressive treasures in their own right. Remember at San Xavier del Bac, the silver altar and ornaments seen by visitors was estimated to be worth some $40,000 in 1850 dollars at that, not to mention the evidence of smelting activities at the same mission. Where did all that silver and gold go?
I am getting carried away here and an ancient proverb comes to mind - "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest." (gospel of Thomas, 5) If you hunt through the old newspaper accounts, you will see quite a few claims of having discovered the lost mines of Tumacacori, in fact more mines than are believed to have existed. Every old mine found, that was rich in silver and/or gold and looked old enough to be the work of the Indians under the Jesuits, was pronounced to be the lost Tumacacori mine, or the Purisma Concepcion or the Opata. Not one of our earlier treasure hunters seems to have investigated the fact that Guevavi had mines, Arivaca had mines, even the little mission at Tucson and Franciscan mission near what is Phoenix today and even Sonoita had mines. These are not famous (with one or two possible exceptions like the lost Pima and La Esmeralda) so our treasure hunters never seek them. In my opinion, only a couple of the several dozen old mines found, are really associated with Tumacacori at all, and no one seems to see how to tie them in to the Molina documents/map. Heck after the time of the Jesuits, the Franciscans and even at least one Augustinian padre were active in seeking mines in Arizona, the first placer gold production from Arizona being credited to an Augustinian padre working out of Arivaca in the Baboquiviri area. I do not know why there is so little interest in the Franciscan period, when there is every reason to believe they were mining silver and gold just as were the Jesuits, and they too were kicked out of Mexico in 1823 (or '21, can't recall offhand right now and not willing to hunt it up) they certainly did not take any treasure out with them.
More opinion, so please feel free to disagree happily (To everyone reading this rant) but the Molina "map" is not a map at all, it is an attempt to create a map from the Molina document directions. Someone laid out on paper locations and distances as stated in the Molina text, and in support of this contention there is not ONE landmark on the Molina "map" that is not in the Molina text. If it were a true map, we should see some kinds of landmarks like mountains, rivers, trails, and this is strikingly absent on the Molina map. You could sit down with a paper, compass and straight edge and create your own "Molina map" and it would be as accurate and of as much use as the one posted in this thread.
Sorry for the long winded rant, this particular topic has been a kind of 'pet project' of mine since I first got into treasure hunting as an outgrowth of prospecting. Heck my nickname came from it, in a way, for I was convinced that the Purisma Concepcion was located very near the old ghost town of Oro Blanco in a side canyon where several ancient trails seem to lead. Those trails I am now convinced are not man-made but are cowpaths and animal trails, and Purisma Concepcion is not there, but at any rate you can find evidence of mining and prospecting which is clearly from the early 1800s and 1700s all over southern Arizona even in the Chiricahua mountains and as far up the Colorado river as Quartzsite. I wish that some treasure hunters would expend some more effort and time in researching the history of the region for I believe this would lead to greater successes, and not to limit the scope of research to the Jesuit period alone as so many appear to.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, my apologies if anything posted is offensive for nothing was intended that way, if you disagree with what I have said I have no problem in agreeing to disagree, and wish you the very best of luck. Thank you for your time and I hope you all have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco
You have been very generous with your information, thank you on behalf of everyone who reads our stuff here. I was writing that long winded rant when you posted your last message, just wanted to acknowledge it. 
