Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[gollum]

Joe and AZDAVE35,

The reason is because Bob thinks the Stone Maps were made as part of the Reavis Land Fraud. Nothing to do with Travis T. I have also always conceded that The Reavis Theory was a possibility. I have also always stated that although I personally believe the Stone Maps to be authentic, to be intellectually honest, I have to admit the possibility of them being frauds. Based on everybody I have spoken to, my own and others' research, and what I have personally seen, I believe the Stone Maps to have been made by Jesuits, sometime in the area of 1764-1767.

We can't date stone carvings any better today than they could have in the late 1960s.

TNMountains,

You place too much stock in the DAI Team and their opinions. I stated previously that I personally spoke with two of the people at DAI involved in the examination. My first question was "How much time did you take to examine the Stone Maps?" The answer was "a few hours." Look at the pictures in the article. The only things they used to examine the Stone Maps were Jewelers Loops and their eyes. My next questions were more technical. I asked in their opinions, what would have been the difference (visually) between a stone that had been machine sanded and one that had been sanded smooth using very fine sand between two stones? No answer. I then asked if those drill holes would have been made by a hand drill, could they tell me what the difference (visually) would have been? No answer. My final question was "Is it possible that those same features you state as being evidence of modern manufacture could also exist in stones made using hand tools?" They said it was possible, but that was not their opinion. Agree to disagree. I left it at that, because I got exactly the answer I thought I would get.

Another story was that either Travis T. or Clarence M. sent the Stone Maps to Dr Steven Dana, who was head of the Geology Dept at Redlands University, and Dr Dana's opinion was that they were authentic (look again at Tumlinson's Book where he states he had a paper in his possession from a university professor that examined the stones and found them to be authentic). I spoke to Dr Dana's Widow (he died of cancer in 1986). She told me that at the time, Redlands University frowned on professors doing side jobs for pay, so, any papers not going to the party paying for the test would have been destroyed shortly after. She also said that Dr Dana did all the work, but she was the one that typed all the corresponding paperwork. Regarding the Stone Maps specifically, she vaguely remembered something to do with the Stone Maps, but she couldn't be certain. It was a long time ago, and she was quite old. They likely didn't stick because most people couldn't give a crap about some old carved rocks.

..........more to come....................

Mike

 

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[gollum]

Everybody,

Why would the FBI take the Stone Maps? After the Life Magazine Article came out, everybody and their mothers knew just how to decipher them. A lot of people (including Crazy Jake) used their interpretations of the Stone Maps to bilk people out of money.

With so much interest in the Stone Maps, and so many people making money off of them, it is no wonder the FBI wanted to see if they were modern fakes. After they examined them, there was no case for anything! If the FBI said they believed them to be "at least a hundred years old", what kind of case do you think anybody could make against the owner? NONE!

TNMountains,

Just catching up with your comment about the Stone Maps not showing and wear or patina....... have you actually looked at the Stone Maps? No wear on the trail map sides, but take a look at the EXPOSED opposite side of the Lower Trail Stone:

It says "DON"



No wear or patina?

How about The Heart Insert?


No wear or patina?

Remember, Travis' version of the find was that the trail maps were face to face, with the heart insert about eight inches under them. That would have protected the upper and lower trail maps.

Ryan,

Regarding Photoshop, after thinking about it, I do run ALL my pics through PS to correct for Brightness, Contrast, Size, etc. In that respect, yes, it was Photoshopped, but if you want the RAW Format (Pre-Photoshop) version, I can give you that, or I can just edit the EXIF File and exchange Photoshop for Poopypants! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[RG1976]

Did the FBI have a department that handled "ancient stone carvings" in 1960? What reason would they? Does the FBI have a record of dating stone maps, outside of the ones we are speaking of? If they answer is no, then they wouldn't be the right agency. The FBI handles crime. Were the maps involved in a crime? If the answer is no, then the FBI wouldn't be involved. Period.

Is the FBI story able to be authenticated? No. Its a hand-me-down story from a gentleman with a great title, that spent time in the mountains, then later denounced the maps calling them a hoax.

Did DAI accurately describe tool marks and machined divots on the maps? Yes. Were the maps looked at by professionals with a degree with DAI? Yes.

Do the folks that try to say DAI did a bad job, or expedited job, looking at the stones have a degree in archeology? No.

Do the folks that want to believe in the maps, also spend countless hours searching for treasure, the same way that people dump thousands of dollars into slot machines? Yes.

Has anyone substantiated the stones by publicly annoucing their finds? No.

Has anyone discredited the stones that do this type of work for a living? Yes

Are the people that "supposedly" verified the stones, as per Superstition Treasures (Mitchell), have documented proof of these claims? No. Did Mitchell mention a name, as a source in his book, as to the person who he claims to have verified the age of the stones? No.


We have a car salesman that is trying to convince me how much I pay out of my pocketbook for service on my car. While I earnestly respect his time in the "industry", the receipts on my desk are worth more than an opinion of someone who doesn't own the car he wants to "educate me on". Its the same thing with the maps. If you don't own it, see it, touch it, or go to school for it.....then its probably best to leave it to the people who do in-fact, have those possessions or abilities.

As always, that is only my opinion, and meant with all due respect to those who see things differently than me. And there are many....

 

[sgtfda]

George at the museum thinks the back side holes are air bubbles and they were cast with Adobe

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

George at the museum thinks the back side holes are air bubbles and they were cast with Adobe

Interesting I have often thought they looked like they were cast.

 

[Tnmountains]

Well it has to be worth the effort for an expert in Geology and Archeology to at least examine them. It is not rocket science. I am not an expert and a picture means not much. But a scientific report by anyone but the FBI would be interesting.
Sometimes I am a nerd. I have several microscopes and a microscope camera and I study ancient artifacts for use wear and patina. I look for that 12,000 year old patina though on tools. It's a hobby.
If one of these is cast or adobe then what? I respect yall's opinion and have read many of your alls post. I do not chime in much because you all seem to have a better grasp of the legend.
I am sure you all have read the link I posted years ago and it is old news?
Lots of you alls in that!!! haha

 

[Old]

If one of these is cast or adobe then what?

That's the $64,000 question. You'd have to be as old as I am for that to make sense. But; its a good question.

What does that mean to the Dutch Hunting Community? I expect there is as many answers as there are participants.

 

[RG1976]

Ryan,

Regarding Photoshop, after thinking about it, I do run ALL my pics through PS to correct for Brightness, Contrast, Size, etc. In that respect, yes, it was Photoshopped, but if you want the RAW Format (Pre-Photoshop) version, I can give you that, or I can just edit the EXIF File and exchange Photoshop for Poopypants! HAHAHA

Mike

Mike,

Just as I told you on the phone last time we chatted - I enjoy that you and I see things differently.

However when it comes to photoshop - and the work you've done on your photo - it's clearly obvious. It wasn't just "run thru" photoshop to correct the image as a whole. You used one of the various tools to select only the front facing part of the Horse stone - which is obvious from the line that borders the entire stone - and parts where you cut off your fingers tips.

I believe it was Somehiker that mentioned that you were most likely trying to increase the brightness of only the map, which is possible. There are many possibilities.

Now that you're back - and it was a conversation a few of us had weeks back - it was just a point of conversation.

I did get a pretty big LOL when you said the image was in its raw format though.

 

[Cassews]

WOW!!! great information ... Has anyone watched the re-runs of Superstition Mountains? Interesting on both for sure! Thanks for sharing

 

[sgtfda]

Most Dutch Hunters are not Stoners. Some but not many.

 

[cw0909]

Why did the Archeologist that examined it say that power tools had cut the slab and drills were used with start and stop marks on the letters? There was no patina or evidence of any age on the stones. I read an article the other day from the 50's(?) about the stones in a PDF where they show another stone with the same date found earlier and it was proven to be a hoax and they thought this is where they got their idea for these.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...rticles/Are the Peralta Stone Maps a Hoax.pdf


It is a lot of pages of maps and pictures so even on high speed internet it takes it a second or two to load.

when you read the life/64 article.then the 73 frontier times article, seems to just raise more Qs
https://books.google.com/books?id=W0EEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA90&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=true

 

[KXMember]

Did the FBI have a department that handled "ancient stone carvings" in 1960? What reason would they? Does the FBI have a record of dating stone maps, outside of the ones we are speaking of? If they answer is no, then they wouldn't be the right agency. The FBI handles crime. Were the maps involved in a crime? If the answer is no, then the FBI wouldn't be involved. Period.

Is the FBI story able to be authenticated? No. Its a hand-me-down story from a gentleman with a great title, that spent time in the mountains, then later denounced the maps calling them a hoax.

Did DAI accurately describe tool marks and machined divots on the maps? Yes. Were the maps looked at by professionals with a degree with DAI? Yes.

Do the folks that try to say DAI did a bad job, or expedited job, looking at the stones have a degree in archeology? No.

Do the folks that want to believe in the maps, also spend countless hours searching for treasure, the same way that people dump thousands of dollars into slot machines? Yes.

Has anyone substantiated the stones by publicly annoucing their finds? No.

Has anyone discredited the stones that do this type of work for a living? Yes

Are the people that "supposedly" verified the stones, as per Superstition Treasures (Mitchell), have documented proof of these claims? No. Did Mitchell mention a name, as a source in his book, as to the person who he claims to have verified the age of the stones? No.


We have a car salesman that is trying to convince me how much I pay out of my pocketbook for service on my car. While I earnestly respect his time in the "industry", the receipts on my desk are worth more than an opinion of someone who doesn't own the car he wants to "educate me on". Its the same thing with the maps. If you don't own it, see it, touch it, or go to school for it.....then its probably best to leave it to the people who do in-fact, have those possessions or abilities.

As always, that is only my opinion, and meant with all due respect to those who see things differently than me. And there are many....

FBI gets very involved in this type of work

 

[gollum]

Did the FBI have a department that handled "ancient stone carvings" in 1960? What reason would they? Does the FBI have a record of dating stone maps, outside of the ones we are speaking of? If they answer is no, then they wouldn't be the right agency. The FBI handles crime. Were the maps involved in a crime? If the answer is no, then the FBI wouldn't be involved. Period.

(REPLY): If an allegation is officially made, then the FBI (at their discretion) can look into the situation. ESPECIALLY if it involves people in one state being defrauded by a business located in a different state. If their investigation turns up no foul play, no reason to keep records. Also, the FBI has the tools to properly examine about anything. If they are required to examine something that they don't have either the expertise or equipment for, they farm those things out.

Is the FBI story able to be authenticated? No. Its a hand-me-down story from a gentleman with a great title, that spent time in the mountains, then later denounced the maps calling them a hoax.

(REPLY): Bob Corbin is FAR more than a man with a "great title" as you so casually put it. He has been a Dutch Hunter for longer than you have been alive. It is also one of the few LDM/Stone Maps related stories that the original teller is still alive. You don't want to believe the story because it doesn't jibe with your pet theory. If you choose to so casually dismiss Bob Corbin it says a lot more about you than it does him. He has an established reputation as being a completely straight shooter, and I have yet to meet anybody that has known him and says different. You have been involved in this for about fifteen minutes. Whose word would I take? Guess ....and by the way. His opinion is that they are old, but were part of the Reavis Land Grant Fraud. He thinks they were made probably in the 1870s or 1880s.

Did DAI accurately describe tool marks and machined divots on the maps? Yes. Were the maps looked at by professionals with a degree with DAI? Yes.

(REPLY): I have read the article and personally spoken and corresponded with two of the people that examined the Stone Maps. I have already posted the discussion.

Do the folks that try to say DAI did a bad job, or expedited job, looking at the stones have a degree in archeology? No.

(REPLY): A degree in Archaeology is nice, but like I said previously, all of the marks they describe as being machine made could have also been made by hand tools. A degree in Archaeology is not necessary to know and see that. Even then, how many years have those people been at their jobs? I honestly don't know. I don't cast aspersions on people I don't know, but I have been at this for almost twenty-five years. I have examined rock carvings, monuments and symbols, gold and silver bars. I am self taught able to translate Colonial Spanish Documents. I can read all three types of script used by the Spanish from the late 16th Century until the early 1800s (Cortesana, Procesal, and Italica). Most degreed Archaeologists can not. I have almost twenty-five years of hands on experience.

Do the folks that want to believe in the maps, also spend countless hours searching for treasure, the same way that people dump thousands of dollars into slot machines? Yes.

(REPLY): I have not spent more than probably about several hours thinking about Stone Map Solutions. The greatest majority of my time has been spent researching their history. I would have to agree though, that most people who have a strong opinion on the subject do have a vested interest. One thing I have been saying since I found an interest in the Stone Maps/LDM is that so many people have been on those two trails in the last 130 years that trying to find either is probably futile. Monuments have been torn down and altered. Tons of lies have been told by all kinds of people looking to integrate themselves into the legends. If I found the LDM or the rich end of the Stone Map Trail, it would probably be completely by accident. This is something I have not stated before, but my interest in the Supers is with a few of the other, less well known stories that have some teeth. Most of you that know me can probably guess a couple of them.

Has anyone substantiated the stones by publicly annoucing their finds? No.

(REPLY): If it does (or has), I highly doubt you will read about it any time soon.

Has anyone discredited the stones that do this type of work for a living? Yes

(REPLY): No they haven't. They offered their opinion based on their examination of the stone maps. That is fine. Guess what? Father Charles Polzer SJ was shown many gold and silver bars with markings that showed they were Jesuit in origin. Father Polzer said that every one was a fake. Why? Because the Jesuits never had any wealth, so the bars have to be fakes. Father Polzer SJ had several degrees, and was renowned in his field. Oroblanco and I, in my thread about Jesuit Wealth have showed several instances of Jesuit Treasure Caches being recovered. Did Father Polzer (A Jesuit Priest) have an ulterior motive for proclaiming all those gold and silver bars fake? Maybe., but he was wrong. There have been many instances right here on TNet over the years that I have proven degreed people they were wrong about things in my field of research. If all you know is what is written in books, then you don't know squat!

Are the people that "supposedly" verified the stones, as per Superstition Treasures (Mitchell), have documented proof of these claims?No. Did Mitchell mention a name, as a source in his book, as to the person who he claims to have verified the age of the stones? No.

(REPLY): Wrong again. As I stated previously (again), the man that the Stonew Maps were "supposedly" taken to was Dr. Steven Dana PhD of Redlands University in Redlands, California. Unfortunately, Dr. Dana died in 1986 from cancer. I spoke to his widow several years ago. I wish I had gotten to her sooner. I could tell that she was early stages of Dimentia. She constantly repeated herself, and had to ask my name a couple of times. That said, she was a wonderful lady, and was very gracious and answered to the best of her abilities, all my questions. In the course of our second conversation, she said that she vaguely remembered the Stone Maps, as she was the one that typed all her husband's research results.

We have a car salesman that is trying to convince me how much I pay out of my pocketbook for service on my car. While I earnestly respect his time in the "industry", the receipts on my desk are worth more than an opinion of someone who doesn't own the car he wants to "educate me on". Its the same thing with the maps. If you don't own it, see it, touch it, or go to school for it.....then its probably best to leave it to the people who do in-fact, have those possessions or abilities.

(REPLY): Tell me how much you spend on a "A" and "B" Service. I will call my old work tomorrow and get you exactly what the cost is here in L.A. I don't have to own a car to know about it. If I wanted one, I would own one. A 12 cylinder Mercedes does me absolutely no good. And while I respect the time you spent in your field, you have about fifteen minutes experience in Treasure Hunting. I have been at this for almost twenty-five years. and yes. I have made a few finds (HAHAHA though nothing to retire on).

As always, that is only my opinion, and meant with all due respect to those who see things differently than me. And there are many....

Ryan,

When it comes to The Stone Maps, there are only four people I know of that have spent a significant amount of time researching them:

Garry
Larry
Matthew
Myself

Between the four of us, there is almost NOTHING we haven't looked into regarding the Stone Maps in modern times (1949-present). Garry has been most generous with sharing his research with the world. Larry, Matthew, and myself.....not so much. I have shared a lot, but it is only a small part of what I have found over the years. Before you go roping yourself into a corner, talk to us that have spent many years calling, FOIA'ing, writing, interviewing, reading, etc etc etc. Matthew and I were just noting that most of the people that have actually done REAL research into the Stone Maps history believe in their authenticity. One thing that did it for me was in one of the Dick Peck Letters. An investigator looking into Tumlinson's Past (for Dick Peck who was trying to buy the stones from Clarence Mitchell), interviewed one of Travis Tumlinson's best friends in Hood River, Oregon. This man would visit with Travis often. Travis would bring out the Upper and Lower Trail Maps and the Heart Insert. They would stay up late talking about possible meanings to different markings, and (HERE'S THE MONEY SHOT) Travis would sit there and stick his finger in the large hole in the lower trail map and say "If I could only figure out where this is, I would be a millionaire!" Not the actions of a hoaxer.

Take for instance, your theory that Travis Tumlinson made the Stone Maps so his UNCLE Robert could sell them to Gene Davis (Robert's Landlord). If you had spent the time, and knew the subject, you would know that was not possible. Davis never saw the maps until after about 1957 or so. The Stone Maps were known to exist in 1949. So, Travis made them in 1949, so that his Uncle Bob could sell them to his landlord seven years later? Not much sense. Robert G Tumlinson was known as "Hardrock Tumlinson" around the bars in Portland, Oregon. He told everybody that would listen that he had a treasure map, and he would soon be rich. The nickname was a joke. There is also not a single shred of evidence that Robert ever attempted to sell the Stone Maps.

Now, regarding my pic of me holding the Horse/Priest Stone. You are 100% WRONG! No highlighting was done to ANY of my pics. HAHAHA I took a close look at what you said, and it damn sure looks like a part line, but it isn't. The forum does not accept PEF Format pics, but here is a copy of one that was only converted from .PEF (RAW) Format to .jpeg:



I can also send you the one that has been untouched in PEF (RAW) Format. Like I said, I altered nothing in these but Brightness, Contrast, and Size. I didn't use any tools other than those. I promise you that if I had altered it, you would NEVER know. I have been using PS since before they put a number or CS after it. I currently work with Creative Cloud (which I hate). Prefer CS6. And besides, if I had just adjusted the brightness or contrast to a particular section of any picture, I would not have any problem admitting it.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

You've reminded us again of your credentials and the time you've spent on these rocks, but your pet theory (the Jesuits did it in the 1700s) seems to be high-centered. Ryan may be a rookie, but his fresh eyes are questioning everything anew - maybe even a few sacred cows - and that's healthy, IMHO. See, here's what happens then: when he sees blatant evidence of deception (eg Tumlinson), he bristles and digs deeper. When he sees a lack of evidence for long ago allegations (eg FBI rumor), he doesn't excuse it but keeps probing. No wonder his skepticism is growing. Your many contributions to this subject are duly noted, but Ryan is certainly is bringing new life to the debate. Time will tell where this goes.

 

[RG1976]

Mike,

Thanks for typing that all out. I had a lot of respect for you - even though we saw things differently. I admired your research - and the passion behind all your enthusiasm. I even stood up for you when you were banned.

I'm pretty shocked at the lengths you will go to want these maps to be real. Even more shocked that you can say with a straight face that you didn't edit your picture. That's really going to throw the folks that discussed it for a loop and question things you say in the future. But perhaps we are all wrong, and our screens are busted - and you're right.

I'm not going to bring up car service on Tnet again - but an A/B service is not what you said. You said oil change, just as you described in your previous post. Trying to change things won't make them more real.

And you're right - I haven't been around as long as you. That's why I'm so shocked that you haven't been able to get the things I have - or make the connections to people that I have. The theories that frank and I came up with for video 6 are all based on information from Greg Davis' library. Stuff like hand written letters... You know, good stuff.

Don't mishandle my words when it comes to Corbin. In his correspondence he said the stones were a hoax. He didn't say they were a hoax when it came to Travis, but real when it came to reavis. That is you throwing that part in there - which isn't accurate. That is your theory - that you are trying to swindle people in believing is fact.

You should educate yourself by taking a trip back down to Greg's house - and asking to see his files on Garman. You may learn something new! In specific - ask to see the letter Robert wrote to Garman - asking him to invest. When it came to Dr. Davis - well, to be honest, I got that theory from your website.

As to everything else in your opinion - it's just that, your opinion. You make a lot of claims based on theory and try to tell people they are fact. It's something that's glaringly obviously to those who read it. Your definition of fact is very different than mine - and that has also become obvious.

The work by Mr. Cundiff and his friend Larry is phenomenal. They are def an asset to the community. I completely side with Garry's deduction on the maps and to be honest, he's the only one I trust. Its been an honor to get to know him and use his research in the videos Frank and I produce.

 

[RG1976]

Thanks to all the folks that have participated in voting on the poll in this thread.

We have 11 that believe in Travis' story and 24 that believe Travis either hoaxed or carved the maps himself based on other information.

In order to vote - you must be on the desktop version of this website not the mobile app for iOS / Android.

 

[KXMember]

No matter what, none of you or any of them have ever figured out how to read those maps. You're all trying to pose theories... lol
You can read all the letters you want and dig through your libraries blah blah blah...figure out how to read those maps as they are and screw all the details. The details are the problem. It's a map, made by the Peraltas and it leads somewhere...Period.

 

[captain1965]

I have talked to Bob Corbin on a few occasions and learned of the FBI story directly from him. Bob is a stand up guy. About 4 years ago him and I were talking about the PSM'S. Bob said he was unsure about the authenticity of the stones. He said that if the new information he had heard regarding the stones was true he wold have to reconsider his position on weather or not the stones were hoxed. Now his position is that the stones were made in Tumlinson's garage. So his opinion on the stone maps seems to change.

My personal opinion on the stone maps is that they are not hoaxes and carved by Jesuits in around 1766

 

[azdave35]

No matter what, none of you or any of them have ever figured out how to read those maps. You're all trying to pose theories... lol
You can read all the letters you want and dig through your libraries blah blah blah...figure out how to read those maps as they are and screw all the details. The details are the problem. It's a map, made by the Peraltas and it leads somewhere...Period.

prove it

 

[RG1976]

No matter what, none of you or any of them have ever figured out how to read those maps. You're all trying to pose theories... lol
You can read all the letters you want and dig through your libraries blah blah blah...figure out how to read those maps as they are and screw all the details. The details are the problem. It's a map, made by the Peraltas and it leads somewhere...Period.

Can't wait to see what you find!

Do you feel all 3 stones + the heart insert go as a collection to lead to the same location? And also, you believe the location to be somewhere in New Mexico, yea?