Walt Gasslers Notes on Dutchman Legend

[azdave35]

Dave,

"and as far as tom k...bob c. and clay w. goes...they know a hell of alot more than you know ..but coming to a rendezvous once a year and chatting with them isnt going to get you any closer to the ldm...whatever info they do have they surely aren't going to tell you or anyone else"

What you say may or may not be true, but coming to the Rendezvous every year probably won't get you farther away from the LDM either.

On the other hand, you still jump in your truck and drive up to the base of the mountains to talk to the old timers. How can you be sure that one of those old timers haven't found Waltz's mine/cache? Personally, I'm pretty sure one or more of them have.

All of that has nothing to do with the Gold bar legends, and am sure those gold bars did exist.

Getting off your butt and hiking the mountains is one of the best things you can do, but research doesn't hurt, which is how whatever was found in the Pit Mine got removed.

Many Dutch Hunters who don't read, often ask me questions about things that are printed in books. Did you get the Emails I sent you?

Take care,

Joe

yes i did joe...thank you....i'm with you on one or more of the old timers finding a cache...matter of fact i guarantee it ...the guys that worked the pit mine didnt find it by doing research...thats all i can say here about it..as far as the gold bars go...you and i both agree that they were in the mountains..and if your theory is correct i have the names of the rats that got the gold bars

 

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[Hal Croves]

Dave,

"and as far as tom k...bob c. and clay w. goes...they know a hell of alot more than you know ..but coming to a rendezvous once a year and chatting with them isnt going to get you any closer to the ldm...whatever info they do have they surely aren't going to tell you or anyone else"

What you say may or may not be true, but coming to the Rendezvous every year probably won't get you farther away from the LDM either.

On the other hand, you still jump in your truck and drive up to the base of the mountains to talk to the old timers. How can you be sure that one of those old timers haven't found Waltz's mine/cache? Personally, I'm pretty sure one or more of them have.

All of that has nothing to do with the Gold bar legends, and am sure those gold bars did exist.

Getting off your butt and hiking the mountains is one of the best things you can do, but research doesn't hurt, which is how whatever was found in the Pit Mine got removed.

Many Dutch Hunters who don't read, often ask me questions about things that are printed in books. Did you get the Emails I sent you?

Take care,

Joe

A balance of both would be a great diet. Good post.

I was recently told that there is surveillance video of the pit mine being worked.
Have you had the opportunity to view it?

 

[Hal Croves]

roy...lol...i dont need books...if i need info i just jump in my truck and drive out to the supers and get the info from the men that have lived at the base of the mountain all their lives...

OMG, I can imagine them covering their book collections with a blanket when they see your truck approaching.
lol

 

[azdave35]

OMG, I can imagine them covering their book collections with a blanket when they see your truck approaching.
lol

the same way we all hit ignore when you come online?...lol

 

[Hal Croves]

the same way we all hit ignore when you come online?...lol

Lol. Exactly.

You seem to be connected to the inner circle and claim to know about the Pit Mine.
Is there anything you can share about this alleged Pit Mine video?
Have you heard of it?
Have you seen it?

 

[Old]

Dave,

When you speak with Mr. Feldman please ask him what happened to the wood fibers from Roger's Spring. Not the newer stuff but the old stuff. Are they still around, age, and if he knows the tree type.

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

When you speak with Mr. Feldman please ask him what happened to the wood fibers from Roger's Spring. Not the newer stuff but the old stuff. Are they still around, age, and if he knows the tree type.

sure lynda.....i've been to the rogers site but not down in the tunnel...its covered up but it must be flooded because there is a drain pipe coming out of it that the ranchers used to keep a cattle trough full...you could see the wood timbers at the entrance of the tunnel and i assume they go down all the way...i understand there is a couple side tunnels down there that are shored up with timber...are these the ones you are interested in?

 

[cactusjumper]

sure lynda.....i've been to the rogers site but not down in the tunnel...its covered up but it must be flooded because there is a drain pipe coming out of it that the ranchers used to keep a cattle trough full...you could see the wood timbers at the entrance of the tunnel and i assume they go down all the way...i understand there is a couple side tunnels down there that are shored up with timber...are these the ones you are interested in?

Dave,

The treasure site was originally an old spring that was used by cattlemen and wildlife. The Feldman's agreement with the authorities was that they would clean out the spring and return it to its original purpose. That drain pipe is there, I imagine, for that very purpose.

"matter of fact i guarantee it ...the guys that worked the pit mine didnt find it by doing research..."

Actually, the guys that worked the Pit Mine didn't find it at all. Rather, they were shown the mine by a friend.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

The treasure site was originally an old spring that was used by cattlemen and wildlife. The Feldman's agreement with the authorities was that they would clean out the spring and return it to its original purpose. That drain pipe is there, I imagine, for that very purpose.

"matter of fact i guarantee it ...the guys that worked the pit mine didnt find it by doing research..."

Actually, the guys that worked the Pit Mine didn't find it at all. Rather, they were shown the mine by a friend.

Take care,

Joe

you are close joe..it was shown to them....but not by anyone alive

 

[cactusjumper]

you are close joe..it was shown to them....but not by anyone alive

Dave,

I know the story. I also know the truth.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I know he story. I also know the truth.

Take care,

Joe

joe..there are many truth's to a story..it just depends on who is telling the story as to which truth you get

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Take care,

Joe

lol...i can live with that joe.....merry christmas

 

[cactusjumper]

lol...i can live with that joe.....merry christmas

Merry Christmas, Dave,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

you are close joe..it was shown to them....but not by anyone alive

Dave,

One other thing here, if the source who showed them where the Pit Mine is located, is dead, why not name him? Mine is still alive, so no name will be forthcoming, probably not in my lifetime.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Old]

Yeap Dave,

I'm interested in the ones from the inner chamber. He'll know which ones <g>.

 

[Hal Croves]

Oh I agree that what Waltz was telling his listeners (Julia, Reiney and Dick) was getting garbled, and that it is not possible at this point in time to determine which one did the mixing up.

On the Peralta-Mexican-massacre tale, I would point out that Storm has this story involved with the Ludys, and not with Waltz. Conversely, from the Pioneer Interviews version of the LDM, we get NO Mexicans, no massacre, and no Peraltas. See a coincidence there? It looks to me that the Peralta/Mexican tale with the Ludys, got mixed with the Waltz story, wrongly. IF we did not have an alternate version (the Pioneer Interviews) that had no features of Mexicans, massacre etc then it would be harder to determine if this were the case. But since we have one version of the LDM with NONE of those features, and also a version that has the Dutchman being named Jacob Ludy complete with Peraltas and massacre, I think we can toss that part of the tale.

Of course it makes for a much more exciting story to have the Mexicans involved, murders and massacre etc and I have no doubt that part of the story is indeed based on facts, but with men not named Waltz and Weiser, they were named Ludy. In fact I think you mentioned that you had also found the military records for the Ludy men (I found them on the Fold3 dot com site, but have let my membership lapse) and I do recall that there was something like an 18 year difference in age between the two Ludy men. This could have been two brothers, or father and son, cousins, or even uncle and nephew.

I don't buy that the Mexican part of the LDM tale really should be linked to Waltz at all. Oh and by the way, while you guys are hunting up info on the Mexican workings found in Goldfield, perhaps you will also find out about the tool that had the initials in it, which could be a Peralta. A crowbar I believe it was.
View attachment 1249188
I propose that this article from 1878 is reporting the Ludy men finding the silver mine. <Weekly Arizona Miner, Prescott, 1878>

Oroblanco,

Have a look at William Ludy the pioneer printer who came to Phoenix from Yuma in 1878/9 as foreman for the "old Arizona Expositor" (I think this should actually be the Territorial Expositor which started as the Yuma Expositor). William allegedly set the first line of type in a Phoenix newspaper and seems to have had gold fever. "Like many another printer however, he yielded to the lure of the gold and could not stick to his virtuous profession only long enough to get a stake and hit for the hills". Ludy was in Phoenix as late as May 24, 1909 apparently on the track of a "bonanza".

There is the Ludy ditch, promoted by "Jake" J.E. Ludy (Jacob Edward) and his father (Adam) beginning in 1898(?). Adam and Jacob lived in Yuma, AZ, Washington, and California.

I think that this is a photo of Jacob:
Photograph of Jacob E. Ludy and Car, circa 1900-1920 | Special Collections


William Ludy came to Phoenix from Yuma in 78? so there could be a connection.

Not sure if these are the same two men but they served together.
There are 39 Union soldiers named Ludy.
2 Confederates... One named William Ludy.

Ludy , William
Battle Unit Name:69th Regiment, Ohio Infantry
Side:Union
Company:D
Soldier's Rank In:Private
Soldier's Rank Out:Private
Notes: General Note - See also Inv Corps

Ludy , Jacob
Battle Unit Name:69th Regiment, Ohio Infantry
Side:Union
Company:D
Soldier's Rank In:Private
Soldier's Rank Out:Private

OR....

Ludy , W. A.
Battle Unit Name:1st Regiment, North Carolina Infantry
Side:Confederacy
Company:E
Soldier's Rank In:Private
Soldier's Rank Out:Private
Alternate name:William A./Lunday
Notes: General Note - Original filed under William A./Lunday

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

There it is!

Okay, so we're playing nice again? While I do love a good fight, they do nothing to further the conversation. HAHAHA I prefer everybody getting along.

Your post has done absolutely nothing to destroy the legend, trust me! HAHAHA THAT red herring is firmly entrenched in the minds of many.

But to answer your question directly,

my q? what Q? There was no Q in my post. You sir are the only one dangling herring of any color. Tiny as yours may be ...

1. What makes you think

more to the point what makes you think you have even the first iota of a concept of what I think?

that the "Waltz Gold" came from the Goldfield Area? Joseph Porterie was very familiar with what the ores from most of the local mines looked like. When he assayed the ore Dick Holmes got from the candlebox, he stated it was unlike any ore he had ever seen. He had also been the Chief Assayer at the Vulture Mine. I don't think that anybody has ever ABSOLUTELY MATCHED Waltz' Candlebox Ore to ANY known mine. Granted, at the time (early 1892), the Mammoth was still an unknown mine, but that ore has most definitely been tested against the candlebox ore.

2. Massacre Ground Ore was not from the Massacre Grounds.

except well sorta by name and therefore by definition ...

What came from The Massacre Grounds was float ore likely from pack saddles cut from the mules, before the N-Deh took them to eat. That is why we have the story of Silverlocke & Malm. They found about $15,000 in float ore, but couldn't ever find the vein. They both went crazy and spent all their original money trying to find a vein that didn't exist.

Mike

I have always played nice with you Mike. After all we are in the land of where I have sat time out for being condescending ('in general" rather than a specific charge 90 days v your 20 days for I didn't even see what you did then - why don't you be a pal and PM me what it was you got it for? I have already revealed all I have been told about my timeout)

Any way, were we in a safe place for me you might be surprised.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco,

Have a look at William Ludy the pioneer printer who came to Phoenix from Yuma in 1878/9 as foreman for the "old Arizona Expositor" (I think this should actually be the Territorial Expositor which started as the Yuma Expositor). William allegedly set the first line of type in a Phoenix newspaper and seems to have had gold fever. "Like many another printer however, he yielded to the lure of the gold and could not stick to his virtuous profession only long enough to get a stake and hit for the hills". Ludy was in Phoenix as late as May 24, 1909 apparently on the track of a "bonanza".

There is the Ludy ditch, promoted by "Jake" J.E. Ludy (Jacob Edward) and his father (Adam) beginning in 1898(?). Adam and Jacob lived in Yuma, AZ, Washington, and California.

I think that this is a photo of Jacob:
Photograph of Jacob E. Ludy and Car, circa 1900-1920 | Special Collections


William Ludy came to Phoenix from Yuma in 78? so there could be a connection.

Not sure if these are the same two men but they served together.
There are 39 Union soldiers named Ludy.
2 Confederates... One named William Ludy.

Ludy , William
Battle Unit Name:69th Regiment, Ohio Infantry
Side:Union
Company:D
Soldier's Rank In:Private
Soldier's Rank Out:Private
Notes: General Note - See also Inv Corps

Ludy , Jacob
Battle Unit Name:69th Regiment, Ohio Infantry
Side:Union
Company:D
Soldier's Rank In:Private
Soldier's Rank Out:Private

OR....

Ludy , W. A.
Battle Unit Name:1st Regiment, North Carolina Infantry
Side:Confederacy
Company:E
Soldier's Rank In:Private
Soldier's Rank Out:Private
Alternate name:William A./Lunday
Notes: General Note - Original filed under William A./Lunday

Good post and nice find Hal - perhaps we ought to start a new thread, on these two 'Dutchmen' that are almost certainly at the root of at least a good part of the LDM story? Had not seen the William A, a Confederate, which would fit the Confederate aspect of the story.

Oroblanco

PS I suppose I did not need to quote your post there, however "like" was not a strong enough compliment.

 

[Hal Croves]

Good post and nice find Hal - perhaps we ought to start a new thread, on these two 'Dutchmen' that are almost certainly at the root of at least a good part of the LDM story? Had not seen the William A, a Confederate, which would fit the Confederate aspect of the story.

Oroblanco

PS I suppose I did not need to quote your post there, however "like" was not a strong enough compliment.

If you start it, I will post what I have. William Ludy was a character and you will enjoy reading about his box car travels.
The curious thing is that Ludy suddenly goes missing only to reappear in Phoenix some twenty years later chasing treasure.

We know that many disillusioned rebel soldiers made their way to Arizona after the war.
Was William Ludy the printer one of them?
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