Weiser's Gravesite

[Idahodutch]

you just hit the nail right on the head...99% of dutch hunters in the supers have no knowledge of geology or mining...they don't have a snowballs chance of finding a mine..they think every hole in the ground they see is the ldm...chances are it isn't even a gold mine...they mine other minerals too such as lead and copper and silver

Good morning Dave,
It’s further along than you realize.
Locations are completed already.
This trip is almost strictly retrieval of samples.
Then a couple of things to investigate.

The LDM will still be there. Only getting legal samples.
You can laugh all you want if my return report is empty

 

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[azdave35]

Good morning Dave,
It’s further along than you realize.
Locations are completed already.
This trip is almost strictly retrieval of samples.
Then a couple of things to investigate.

The LDM will still be there. Only getting legal samples.
You can laugh all you want if my return report is empty

dutch...no one is laughing at you....just tell us you aren't going in this time of year

 

[Idahodutch]

The climate here, averages almost 15 degrees cooler than Phoenix.
I grew up in Phoenix it will be ok... used to be a house framer in Phoenix for a summer, then got into electrical so could work in shade
I plan to come back

Ahh ... the aneurysm, the person from cardiovascular surgeons office that told us ... only one mm to spare, told us wrong.
There is 1 centimeter to spare. I should be ok.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The climate here, averages almost 15 degrees cooler than Phoenix.
I grew up in Phoenix it will be ok... used to be a house framer in Phoenix for a summer, then got into electrical so could work in shade
I plan to come back

Ahh ... the aneurysm, the person from cardiovascular surgeons office that told us ... only one mm to spare, told us wrong.
There is 1 centimeter to spare. I should be ok.

Well, still not the best of news, but I guess 1cm is 10 times better that 1mm!!!!

Have fun out there and good luck Idaho.

 

[Barber..]

it will be ok...

Famous last words..

 

[Idahodutch]

Where did Bicknell get his information for the story? Bicknell was a newspaper writer and storyteller - that was his job. You don't think perhaps he may have "embellished" a bit? Why would you believe Bicknell's story but not the Holme's story other than the fact it fits with your theories?

Hello Cubfan,
I didn’t see you post till just now. I started out with Bicknell’s article. It was enough to study topo maps and come up with as many spots (small areas) possible (for me anyway) that following those clues would get to and be fitting clues. I found 3 places of interest.
Was able to scratch off 2 of them before moved out of state. Life had gotten busy.

Much later, came upon the Holmes Manuscript narrative for getting to the ravine.
By that time, my back was bad enough, I went from electrician to estimator. I much preferred field work to office work, but life is life.
So, lunchtime on a computer .... what to catch up on. Then saw manuscript stuff.
Once again studied the path and topo maps together.
Had to make assumptions for 1st , and second water, but after that, goes to same place as Bicknell’s did.
I planned a trip and went in. Was able to verify an important clue.
Again life got busy. Now here we are.

It was just the colorful parts of the death bed parts that I wondered about.
I hope that answered your questions

I apriciate the direct questions. Did Bicknell embellish? IDK, I followed clues.

 

[Idahodutch]

I do have to confess, I did not check the Holmes direction clues for any other area, except to see if following them can get to last place from my Bicknell spots.

 

[coazon de oro]

Why tell how to get to the LDM, then lie about Mexicans and Weiser?

I came across some information, that seems to indicate the moving of Weiser from LDM to another spot nearby.

Among other things, plans for this trip are to also check out that Weiser move info.
Hit or miss, I’ll give an update upon return.

I started the thread, asking a serious question.
If there is anything else, that someone can think of, I only have this trip. It will be my last.

Howdy Idahodutch,

"Why tell how to get to the LDM, then lie about Mexicans and Weiser?"

Bicknell got the story mostly from Julia, being a writer, he may have embelished a little here and there. Julia said what she was told, not knowing she may have been lied too. Waltz spend quite some time being tended by Julia waiting to get better to go get his cache. During this time he told "stories" ( lies ) to Julia, to justify how he got the mine. There never was a Weiser, no bones about it. Waltz "story" about him and his make believe partner killing Mexicans thinking they were Indians, was a way to ease his mind about the Mexicans that he did kill. He alone killed three Mexicans, but he killed them in their camp as they were prepareing to leave. So don't worry about human remains being at the LDM. He did kill one intruder with his shotgun at the mine's entrance, but did not put him in the mine that he was working, would you?
When Waltz's found himself getting worse knowing he might not make it, or might not ever be able to make another trip to the mine, he tried to tell Julia and Rhiney how to get to the mine.
Wishing you the best of luck, stay safe.

Homar

 

[Idahodutch]

Thank you Homar,
This will definitely be an interesting trip.
Hopefully we get to see how the chips fell.

Whatever the outcome, I’m game to find out ��
Idahodutch

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Idaho,

For what it's worth, I would agree with Homar 100% that there never was any Weiser associated with a Superstitions mine of Jacob Waltz (at least not in the sense the stories would have us believe).

I believe Tom Weedin started or significantly contributed to that story early on, melding the story of the 2 Germans mine (also known as Jacobs and Ludi) with the LDM. He certainly told a version of the story and several other locals, including Bick, picked it up and ran with it. Several claimed that Julia told them the story in person. One went so far as to claim he stayed in Julia's boarding house and while there, Julia told him the names were Jacobs and Ludi, not Waltz and Weiser. IMO, Julia never said any such thing, they were making it up as they went. Or, if she did ever replace Waltz with the 2 Germans story, it was because she herself was telling people whatever she had heard. Regardless, it's just not reality.

Several people have attributed Waltz and another German (mostly named Weiser) to John D. Walker. Weedin told Jim Bark the story and gave him a map, which supposedly was given to him by Walker after caring for one of the Germans who died. The original is supposedly lost, so one is drawn from memory...this is the "Dos Buttes" map. It generally conforms to the Bick directions in the article you've been referring to. Keep in mind that John D. Walker died a few months BEFORE Waltz, and for about 2 years before his death, was incapacitated due to stroke. He was in such bad condition that he was hospitalized during that time, and died at an asylum in Napa CA (02 Sept 1891). So if true (it’s not), Walker would have told the story to Weedin around 1888/9. (Edit: or, no later than that date)

My point is that Weedin probably made up the Waltz/Weiser story very soon after Waltz died, and probably related it to several folks. Weedin was a newspaper man in Pinal Co., dabbled in mining, and personally knew people like Bicknell, who also dabbled in the newspaper business and mining. Bick got his newspaper start in Tombstone, before he made his way to Prescott and Phoenix. At the time, most locals knew that these lost mine stories were sensationalized to sell papers to newcomers to the territory, calling them stories for greenhorns.

Barber pointed out earlier that a search for Weiser in records would be a painstaking process...it's already largely been done by dozens of people. There was a Jacob Weiss who was partners with Waltz in the Gross Lode (in the Bradshaws) and the German pronunciation of his name probably sounded alot like "Weiser". But he died in Prescott before Waltz ever came to Phoenix. The most telling, to me anyway, is that Tom Weedin himself had a mining partner named Weiser. Perhaps that's where the name originated.

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning Jim,
Lots of different bits, nothing concrete ... it’s difficult without more information.
Maybe nothing up there but gold ... lol
That info seems indicates something that wasn’t gold, was moved from LDM to nearby spot.
I’m having difficulty coming up with possibilities for a non gold move.

It is something that caught my eye. The information was subtle, but about 98% of the other information from that source, seems very accurate. This was a question mark for me. Once up there, maybe it will be apparent.

The legend has lots of frayed edges .... just poking around.
I wouldn’t mind spending some time just looking around.
I hope we have time for it.
Boots to the ground.

 

[Idahodutch]

If we do see something that seems to fit with being a grave site, in line with that subtle info.... we are not disturbing it.
Pictures though.... lots of pictures.

 

[Cubfan64]

If we do see something that seems to fit with being a grave site, in line with that subtle info.... we are not disturbing it.
Pictures though.... lots of pictures.

Well if nothing else, here's something we can definitely agree on - PICTURES!! Most of the images we see on TNet are GE images, long range "cropped" photos or severely out of focus photos. If you're able to get boots on the ground, close up, in focus photos will automatically put you leaps and bounds above many of the people who make claims here.

Good luck, stay safe and carry lots of water! You can survive for days without food - you can't survive long without water.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Amen, Paul.

Also, in regards to:

... severely out of focus photos.....

I think we still need to get Somehiker a replacement for his crappy camera...I think he said he got it in AJ? Probly saw him coming a mile away...I can hear the store manager: "Give the broken one to the crazy Canook"

Then again, I always wondered if SH'ers legendary fuzzy photos were because he was falling off a cliff while he took the shots...he goes to some scary places

 

[azdave35]

If we do see something that seems to fit with being a grave site, in line with that subtle info.... we are not disturbing it.
Pictures though.... lots of pictures.

glad to see the word WE..i was hoping you wern't going in alone

 

[Idahodutch]

glad to see the word WE..i was hoping you wern't going in alone

Bringing a football team .... 50% commission lol.
Almost same group as last time.... was almost to turn 50 then.so about 12 years ago.
I was sweating pretty bad at times. And 65 pounds heavier.

I will probably hurt like .... bad, but it will be ok

 

[somehiker]

Amen, Paul.

Also, in regards to:



I think we still need to get Somehiker a replacement for his crappy camera...I think he said he got it in AJ? Probly saw him coming a mile away...I can hear the store manager: "Give the broken one to the crazy Canook"

Then again, I always wondered if SH'ers legendary fuzzy photos were because he was falling off a cliff while he took the shots...he goes to some scary places

HaHa wiseguy !

Yes, the Walmart at US 60 and Power Rd. was the only place I could buy a new camera at 6 AM. that morning on my way in to the mountains. The reason I did so in fact, was that my other camera had quit working the previous day while I was taking photos of a particular area out there. Prior to that, it had never given me any trouble at all. It's definitely pooched though, and won't remain ON long enough for me to take a shot of anything......turns itself off after a few seconds.
The new one works fine.....except in that same place where the other one died. Anywhere within about 200 ft. of what I am most interested in getting a good shot of, it just refuses to focus. I've probably taken around 5-600 photos with it so far, almost all of which have been problem free. But I'll likely try another camera next time out.

 

[Idahodutch]

Bringing a football team .... 50% commission lol.
Almost same group as last time.... was almost to turn 50 then.so about 12 years ago.
I was sweating pretty bad at times. And 65 pounds heavier.

I will probably hurt like .... bad, but it will be ok

We made it in and also made it back out.
We had to pack in our own water. No outfitters either.
We all suffered some heat exhaustion on the hike in .... was 4 of us ... 3 of the backpacks we’re about 65 pounds each... my youngest like to work out, so he had a 90 pound backpack.

We stayed in Boulder Canyon, NE Corner of Needle and Boulder junction.

I accidentally left my phone, however my youngest, once again came to the rescue. He had his phone, so there are some pictures.

Just hiked out this morning. It was only 73 degrees by time we reached the truck. It felt like 90 though.


It was a very good trip. My bucket list item of seeing the LDM in person, was granted

 

[Idahodutch]

We went in Monday morning. We left early, but next time, crack of dawn would be best
After resting for several hours, 3 of us went on down Boulder canyon, just with some drinking water. Was so nice to hike without the backpack.

Tuesday, we hiked over to the ravine. We spent the day there.
Wednesday, we recuperated and maintained good shade at our camp. Tarps, long sleeve shirts ... anything to make shade, and be flexible for all the gusts.
Must have been a pretty good windstorm yesterday, based on what we experienced at our Boulder canyon camp.

 

[Idahodutch]

Staying out of the sun, is best advise I could offer.

There was still some water in a couple places in Boulder canyon, but looked about gone.
Needle canyon, still had the water tanks, and there was one that was nice and cold..... we filtered 5 gallons, and took back to camp. Made for an excellent day of recuperation. Today was not bad. I didn’t feel any more signs of the heat exhaustion.
Just ready for my turn in the shower