Wells Fargo $250K <---- malarkey !!!

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

In discussing "proof" of Waltz gold, a number of people have brought up the $7,000. bank draft that was pictured in Helen Corbin's "Bible....". While that draft has been, pretty well, debunked, there is this old e-mail from Steve Creager:

[ It was my understanding - from what I heard of its history from the Roberts family - was that they received a copy of the draft from William Middaugh's daughter who showed up in Phoenix in the 1960s. But they "saw" a copy of it when Laura Middaugh came through in 1947. (Apparently even then Laura only had a "copy.") Nothing was ever mentioned to me about the Henshaws making a copy of it in the 1920s - of which, if the said event happened, no doubt the Roberts family would have seen early on - before the supposed 1947 date.


To be honest I am not sure if the Branstetter branch (that I got a copy from) got their draft copy from William Middaugh's daughter or from Laura herself or from a subsequent Dutch hunter - like Kraig Roberts. I could never get a straight answer on it - because it had been passed around so much no one knew for sure who had what when or who to believe.

All that is known is that the Branstetters proper do not possess any of the other information that Laura had. That ended up with William Middaugh's daughter. A few of Laura's decedents (from children she had prior to Middaugh) knew William's daughter and this material was discussed in the family. She used to live in Maryland Heights, MO].

That should tell you all you need to know about that "Draft".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

What sort of copy would this be?

 

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[cactusjumper]

Concept......

Photo-Copy.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Concept......

Photo-Copy.

Joe Ribaudo

Xerographic office photocopying was introduced by Xerox in 1959, ... (wiki)

Photo stat in plenty of time, but really, who would have undertaken the cost then for that? And why?

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

In discussing "proof" of Waltz gold, a number of people have brought up the $7,000. bank draft that was pictured in Helen Corbin's "Bible....". While that draft has been, pretty well, debunked, there is this old e-mail from Steve Creager:

[ It was my understanding - from what I heard of its history from the Roberts family - was that they received a copy of the draft from William Middaugh's daughter who showed up in Phoenix in the 1960s. But they "saw" a copy of it when Laura Middaugh came through in 1947. (Apparently even then Laura only had a "copy.") Nothing was ever mentioned to me about the Henshaws making a copy of it in the 1920s - of which, if the said event happened, no doubt the Roberts family would have seen early on - before the supposed 1947 date.


To be honest I am not sure if the Branstetter branch (that I got a copy from) got their draft copy from William Middaugh's daughter or from Laura herself or from a subsequent Dutch hunter - like Kraig Roberts. I could never get a straight answer on it - because it had been passed around so much no one knew for sure who had what when or who to believe.

All that is known is that the Branstetters proper do not possess any of the other information that Laura had. That ended up with William Middaugh's daughter. A few of Laura's decedents (from children she had prior to Middaugh) knew William's daughter and this material was discussed in the family. She used to live in Maryland Heights, MO].

That should tell you all you need to know about that "Draft".

What do you get out of that post? That the bank draft has been "pretty well, debunked"?

Perhaps I am not reading it right? Here are several of the statements which stand out, to me:

it had been passed around so much no one knew for sure who had what when or who to believe.

All that is known is that the Branstetters proper do not possess any of the other information that Laura had.

[ It was my understanding - from what I heard of its history from the Roberts family - was that they received a copy of the draft from William Middaugh's daughter who showed up in Phoenix in the 1960s.

That sounds "pretty much" like not a danged thing to me, rather more like not much is really KNOWN at all. Is this a summation of the case against the bank drafts?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Cactusjumper wrote


What do you get out of that post? That the bank draft has been "pretty well, debunked"?

Perhaps I am not reading it right? Here are several of the statements which stand out, to me:


That sounds "pretty much" like not a danged thing to me, rather more like not much is really KNOWN at all. Is this a summation of the case against the bank drafts?

OK fine. I'll cyber BYTE. What is the case FOR?

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

You are not very well informed.....yet. I am not up to providing the education that you obviously have not been exposed to. It is all out there, but I'm not allowed to point you towards it. PM me and I will see what I can do. My post from Steve was not meant to be the proof/evidence you seek. It was to show that the original source, might be less than reliable.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Sour grapes, the fox story from Aesop.

The Wells Fargo receipts were not published in any LDM book that I know of, it was mentioned in private letters between Ruth McGee and a treasure hunter whose name escapes me at the moment. It was posted here some time ago. In the letter, the writer mentioned that the Petrasch boys (Pete and Reiney) were about to give up on hunting the Lost Dutchman mine, concluding that Waltz had told them a fable, until they found those Wells Fargo receipts for a quarter million in gold shipments by Waltz. It actually makes sense that the LDM should have produced about that much (or more) based on the Holmes assay report and the amount of rock removed from the mine, and finding those receipts gave the Petrasches the incentive to hunt for the mine, since they now knew that Waltz had shipped a sizable amount of gold not just the few thousand he had at the end of his life.

We do not have those receipts, the Wells Fargo official historian claims they never did any shipping in Arizona in that time period, (we can prove that incorrect, while there may not have been Wells Fargo stages in AZ, they were certainly doing business in AZ in the time period, mostly through contract agents however, but with official Wells Fargo authority) so in the long run they do not make a big difference in helping to find the mine. It is usually pointed to by the skeptics as phoney, made up etc and even claimed to be "disproved" which is also not true. If Waltz shipped the gold it hardly makes any difference as to where the proceeds went, for one thing many old timers did not believe in banks in those days and for another there are not that many records for the time.

Actually you were on a far better track to find the Lost Dutchman mine, or just a plain vanilla gold mine by the methods you were using previously, those geological studies done by the USGS shortly before the area was declared a wilderness area. The geology around the edges of the wilderness area are the most promising for finding gold and silver, as you probably already saw. The fact that several rich gold mines were discovered in the Goldfield area, might be the very best clue to the location of Waltz's mine, since that area was considered a part of the Superstition mountains when Waltz was alive, not to mention the coincidences in the routes taken by some of the early Dutch hunters. Heck there is even gold inside the Lost Dutchman state park for that matter, which is totally off-limits to touch (you would need to dig to get at it, and that is verboten inside the state park).

"February 14, 1912
Arizona, Statehood granted"

I wonder what annotations would have been used on receipts had they existed in the 'Territory of New Mexico' until 1863 then Arizona Territory?

 

[Oroblanco]

Gentlemen,

You are not very well informed.....yet. I am not up to providing the education that you obviously have not been exposed to. It is all out there, but I'm not allowed to point you towards it. PM me and I will see what I can do. My post from Steve was not meant to be the proof/evidence you seek. It was to show that the original source, might be less than reliable.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Hmm your opinion seems to have changed over time, it has been a while but when several points on the draft were verified like the names, you posted:

My personal oppinion is that the document fairly shouts LEGITIMATE!, as I doubt the average person (perp.) would have been familiar with the terminology that was used.

I am still at our shop, so don't ask me for my source. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe

<Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:00 pm on another forum>

The draft may be phoney, as may the story of the Wells Fargo shipments, but not really proven false either. Does it prove that Waltz had a rich gold mine, IF these side-stories were proven true? Not really. These aspects don't really support or disprove anything concerning whether Waltz had a rich gold mine. In the case of the bank draft, even if 100% legit, how could we know that it was "the" Jacob Waltz, when there are other possibilities?

I still hold that it is best to stick to the oldest sources available on any lost mine or treasure, anything that appears later is questionable and we know that there are people whom will make up fake "evidence" to enhance their own personal standing, either in the Dutch hunter community or in the eyes of the world.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Hmm your opinion seems to have changed over time, it has been a while but when several points on the draft were verified like the names, you posted:

<Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:00 pm on another forum>

The draft may be phoney, as may the story of the Wells Fargo shipments, but not really proven false either. Does it prove that Waltz had a rich gold mine, IF these side-stories were proven true? Not really. These aspects don't really support or disprove anything concerning whether Waltz had a rich gold mine. In the case of the bank draft, even if 100% legit, how could we know that it was "the" Jacob Waltz, when there are other possibilities?

I still hold that it is best to stick to the oldest sources available on any lost mine or treasure, anything that appears later is questionable and we know that there are people whom will make up fake "evidence" to enhance their own personal standing, either in the Dutch hunter community or in the eyes of the world.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,

Almost 10-years since I wrote that post. I have done a smidgen of research in those ten years. The source, as I mentioned a few posts ago, was Kraig Roberts for that draft. I am told, Kraig is writing a book and from what I have seen from him, there will be lots of new "facts" in it. In the same place you got that post from, you will find the evidence and discussions that refute the authenticity of that draft. Of course, as always, you can make up your own mind.

I would imagine you have also had some changes in beliefs over the last ten years.

There are so many "manufactured" stories and pieces of "authentic" evidence out there, that it's become difficult to know who to believe. It's so bad, IMHO, that I have found myself losing interest in the whole mess.

On the other hand, I have made some wonderful friends, like you and Beth, so there has been a very positive effect on my life.....overall.

If we are able to attend, this will likely be our last Rendezvous. I do intend to stay in touch with my friends, and will probably stay on the two forums I can still post on as long as possible.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

A long reply, extra coffee alert and I must ask your indulgence in advance, thanks.

Roy,

Almost 10-years since I wrote that post. I have done a smidgen of research in those ten years. The source, as I mentioned a few posts ago, was Kraig Roberts for that draft. I am told, Kraig is writing a book and from what I have seen from him, there will be lots of new "facts" in it. In the same place you got that post from, you will find the evidence and discussions that refute the authenticity of that draft. Of course, as always, you can make up your own mind.

I would imagine you have also had some changes in beliefs over the last ten years.

There are so many "manufactured" stories and pieces of "authentic" evidence out there, that it's become difficult to know who to believe. It's so bad, IMHO, that I have found myself losing interest in the whole mess.

On the other hand, I have made some wonderful friends, like you and Beth, so there has been a very positive effect on my life.....overall.

If we are able to attend, this will likely be our last Rendezvous. I do intend to stay in touch with my friends, and will probably stay on the two forums I can still post on as long as possible.

Well I am of the opinion that a man whom can change his mind on a topic, in the face of facts that change the picture, is a wise man. On the other hand, some call that being a "flip-flopper" which however I can't agree with; it is not wise to stick to any thing regardless of facts.

I had read that whole exchange some time ago, and came away with obviously a very different conclusion from yours. I would say that the worst point against the bank draft is the source that turned it up. However that said, this particular source also has extensive historical knowledge, clearly had done his research, and just might be truthful about the bank draft.

I think we (Dutch hunters and interested followers) have a tendency to get far too involved in minutea. Like who was the bank manager married to, in Lawrence Kansas in 1881, or 87 as the case may be? Will this information help anyone find the Lost Dutchman mine?

To put things in perspective, as with the $250k Wells Fargo story - even if completely true, the best outcome of it is that it would tend to support that Waltz had a sizable amount of gold. No clue as to where this gold came from, or if it was even rightfully his. The worst outcome is that they are totally false - which also does not prove Waltz had no gold mine.

On the other hand I don't dismiss them either, for they are in the range of what is possible, considering that Waltz must have mined out some gold ore in his mining expeditions to the mine, and the size of the hole itself suggests a possible range of ore removed. This ore, if as rich as the Porterie assay showed, would amount to quite a sum in gold, so that a total of shipments amounting to say $250k and a draft for $7k, are certainly within what is possible. In fact, depending on which description of the mine you prefer (I find the small mine description most believable) the amount of ore removed by Waltz should have produced more gold than has been accounted for even with these debatable sources like the bank draft.

I have seen other cases where a prospector (or several) have struck it rich, no one even debates whether they did or not, and there is virtually no trace of where their gold or silver went. It is more common for that state of affairs than examples where the lucky prospector's money can be traced in detail. I could even point out that in the 'gold rush' days, smaller amounts of gold being shipped, was hardly a matter of notice; an example is a stage robbery which occurred almost where I am sitting at this moment, in which some 600 ounces of gold was stolen - this was not even enough to warrant the sending out of the sheriff or posse, barely made a single line mention in a local newspaper. Now remember that Waltz was seen, on more than one occasion, selling small amounts of gold in various places and usually not to an assayer or the US Mint; he was hardly the only prospector active in his time, and hardly the only one selling small amounts of gold.

Can't seem to sum this up in a few words - here is an attempt; it is interesting to examine these stories like the Wells Fargo shipments and bank draft, but only as a side line as it will not help you find the Lost Dutchman gold mine regardless of outcome. No disrespect to modern authors, but if we stick to the oldest sources, those closest to Waltz and the events, it will be more helpful than a drawer full of papers recently turned up, showing Waltz had, or didn't have money.

By the way to tie this in to the topic, Higham, the source of the letter mentioning the Petrasch boys and Wells Fargo shipments, is also a questionable source; if memory serves, he was of the opinion that Waltz's real name was Von Walzer, which led him down some very erroneous paths. Does that prove he was lying about the Wells Fargo receipts? I sure don't see it, for the Petrasches proved by their actions that they believed Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Superstitions, something had convinced them.

I hope you will change your mind about attending the Rendezvous, and will keep attending so long as you are able; after all you are the founder of these events, you would be missed if you were absent, and it would not be the same.

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn (and Smoky of course!) looking forward to seeing you in a few months, God willing and the crick don't rise that is!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Afterthought - your mention of Steve Creager helped, but it was his post(s) covering the Laura Branstetter story that tipped the scale for me when I read it. Thank you for helping to find it but anyway it looks to me that the bank draft got into Roberts possession from the Branstetters or Middaugh family, and that it was in that family possession for generations prior to that point. Whether she was actually related to "the" Jacob Waltz or not, remains to be seen (may spend some time in the genealogy sites some evening out of curiosity). Also noticed that you had dropped out of that discussion just before that info was posted, perhaps you did not see it? Anyway you can pull up various rather nasty, disparaging news articles on Laura Branstetter, may even find a photo of some of the papers she had linking her to Waltz.

On the negative side here, it is possible the draft could be from a completely unrelated Jacob Waltz, whom lived in Kansas circa 1881, perhaps to purchase a farm, or a herd of cattle etc and has nothing whatsoever to do with Arizona.

On a plus and relating to the topic of this thread, have a possible lead which may prove productive, but may take a couple of years to fully research it. Still amazes me that "new" things can be found even after over 100 years, and not necessarily the product of some faker, as with the recent identification of a new and very promising candidate for Jack the Ripper when the name was discovered on a paper hidden in a book for over a century. Now that I am fully aware of how important (?) such evidence as Wells Fargo shipping receipts linking Waltz to gold, I won't simply make a notation on my own el cheapo notebooks!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I am dropping out of this thread; I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

In discussing "proof" of Waltz gold, a number of people have brought up the $7,000. bank draft that was pictured in Helen Corbin's "Bible....". While that draft has been, pretty well, debunked, there is this old e-mail from Steve Creager:

[ It was my understanding - from what I heard of its history from the Roberts family - was that they received a copy of the draft from William Middaugh's daughter who showed up in Phoenix in the 1960s. But they "saw" a copy of it when Laura Middaugh came through in 1947. (Apparently even then Laura only had a "copy.") Nothing was ever mentioned to me about the Henshaws making a copy of it in the 1920s - of which, if the said event happened, no doubt the Roberts family would have seen early on - before the supposed 1947 date.


To be honest I am not sure if the Branstetter branch (that I got a copy from) got their draft copy from William Middaugh's daughter or from Laura herself or from a subsequent Dutch hunter - like Kraig Roberts. I could never get a straight answer on it - because it had been passed around so much no one knew for sure who had what when or who to believe.

All that is known is that the Branstetters proper do not possess any of the other information that Laura had. That ended up with William Middaugh's daughter. A few of Laura's decedents (from children she had prior to Middaugh) knew William's daughter and this material was discussed in the family. She used to live in Maryland Heights, MO].

That should tell you all you need to know about that "Draft".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Roy,

I think you need to reread this email from Steve again. Remember that he knew Kraig very, very well. In fact...... they were partners.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I think you need to reread this email from Steve again. Remember that he knew Kraig very, very well. In fact...... they were partners.

Take care,

Joe

I still do not get any kind of solid statement there which DISPROVES the bank draft as genuine. As in his phrase:

no one knew for sure who had what when or who to believe.

He included that it was POSSIBLE that the draft originated with Roberts, but did not know for sure. Does that prove the bank draft is phoney for you?

Perhaps you should re-read Steve's old post on that other forum? I had it open here earlier but closed it, the title was "One Upon a Time in Arizona..." and his relevant posts were well on in the thread, not sure of what page(s). His post stated, <hope this is OK, the author of it is deceased and I am not directly linking>

I have a little bit of information I'd like to share.What Aurum wrote about the “draft” first appearing in Phoenix in 1928 is consistent with what I have researched myself. However, I was not directly aware of that fact. I will elaborate.

The story – to me – began in the late 1940s when the Dons Club of Phoenix staged a publicity stunt by making a trip to see President Truman – and along the way to promote Phoenix and Arizona. One of the stops they made was Joplin, MO. There was a woman who lived there named Laura Branstetter Midddaugh. Laura read of the upcoming visit of the Dons before their arrival and was able to make herself part of the welcoming committee that met the Dons. This committee also included the mayor of Joplin.

Laura Middaugh’s claim was that she was the great niece of Jacob Waltz, the Dutchman. When she told the Dons her story they hardly believed her - as her claim contradicted what was then known of Waltz. However, they humored her and invited her to come out to Phoenix and attend the next Dons Trek. Laura presented to the Dons some things supposedly supporting her claim. One item of which was a map supposedly given to her family ancestors that showed the location of the mine. This was one item of many that she had which she received from an uncle on her mother’s side who passed away in 1922. Laura was not married to William Middaugh – her then current husband – when her uncle died. She was married to a different man. However, Laura had kept the documents and did nothing with them (or so was the story she told) until the Dons showed up on their way to DC. Subsequently the Dons went on their way and Laura resolved to go with her husband to Phoenix to take up the Dons on their invitation. (This story is related in Greg Davis’ manuscript, “A Don in Washington.”)

The following March, Laura and her husband made it to Phoenix. Unfortunately along the way she let some things slip and her trip in itself turned out to be a media event. Papers carried stories with titles like “Gun Toting Grandmother Vows to Find Lost Dutchman or Die Trying.” Unfairly, they made her out as a character and no one took her story seriously.

In Phoenix, Laura asked about descendants of other pioneer families who might have known about Waltz. She met with many individuals including members of the Roberts family. They thought Laura was honest and her intent was simply to find out about a relative. She did not give the appearance of being the hard-boiled seeker of the LDM the papers made her out to be. It was my understanding that she showed many individuals various documents she had received from her deceased uncle. This included letters and maps and other documents – including the draft. The documents, to those that saw them, appeared to be genuine.

Laura then went on her way and received more negative publicity and eventually succumbed to a business deal that fell apart on troubled grounds. Having no recourse, she disappeared and, in humiliation, she crawled under a rock to hide. To this day, because of the way she was treated, many in the family are still leery of the whole LDM affair.

Later, in the 1960s, a daughter of William Middaugh by the name Dorothy Middaugh (a daughter by a marriage prior his marriage to Laura Branstetter) showed up in Phoenix more or less retracing her step-mother’s foot steps from years before. Dorothy ended up meeting with some of the Roberts family and other individuals. This is recorded in Ms. Corbin’s book. Dorothy then had a copy of the draft that she showed to some people.

Since then, the items that Laura had possessed related to Waltz went to the Middaugh family – the family of her last husband. However, some of the things she had were shared with some of Laura’s family – the Branstetter line and descendants thereof. One of these individuals had a Xerox copy of the draft that looks essentially the same as the one in Ms. Corbin’s book. Because it was passed around among many people in the family, I am not sure of whom it originated with. It could have been from Laura herself or from a researcher who came into contact with the family in the past.

I was not aware of the photos taken of the draft by the Henshaw family, but as I indicated it is consistent with what I know. Because tradition holds in the Branstetter family that there was another Branstetter – prior to Laura – who had done some researching into the LDM. Since Laura came up with these documents when her uncle passed away in 1922, that would have been the earliest date anyone in the family could have done anything. Laura was not married to William Middaugh then, but was married to another person who very well could have convinced her to share the information with himself and/or some other family members. At this time I have on-going research in the works that relates directly to her husband at that time in the 1920s. However, since it is still a sensitive matter and until some things are resolved, I cannot elaborate too much about the matter. However, I do feel that in regards to the photos the Henshaws took of the draft that her husband was not part of the group that appeared in Phoenix in 1928. He perhaps did later himself investigate the LDM. But the particular meeting probably involved another member of the Branstetter family who was closely related to Laura. This could be the individual the family mentioned that was involved with the LDM prior to Laura’s efforts in the late 1940s. So, the report of the Henshaws involvement and seeing the draft is consistent with indirect information I have received.

I do not want to appear to be withholding information – but until I resolve some things, I do not want to engage in speculation. My plan is to write an article for the “Superstition Mountain Journal” soon that will be about Laura Branstetter. However, out of respect to the Journal itself, the article will only deal with facts – speculation and assumptions will not be present. Though there are some things I cannot discuss openly now, I assure the members of this forum nothing I know, or am aware of, relates to the location of the LDM itself. It is all simply family history and who did what when. Regardless of whether or not it can ultimately be shown Laura was indeed related to Waltz, the fact is SHE herself is now part of the history of the Superstition Mountains. There is a tale to be told about her and the things she did.

<
author Steve Creagar, Apr 04, 2005 on another channel as the saying used to go>


In essence this document is authorizing the disbursement of $7,000 to the order of Jacob Waltz. These funds being available at the National Bank of Lawrence, Kansas. As to how the document came to light, we simply do not know but there are at least two plausible answers, one being the work of a faker and the other being a person whom believed she was related to Waltz and had a legal claim to his mine. The fact that Laura Branstetter showed several documents to the Dons etc and this draft was apparently among those papers BEFORE Roberts entered the picture, certainly suggests (to me) that she is the source for how the document came to light, rather than Roberts whom may well have come into possession of it from her or her relatives, as you know he had insinuated himself as something of an authority on the Lost Dutchman. I don't think I have anything further which would be useful to add to this debate.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[FEMF]

I still do not get any kind of solid statement there which DISPROVES the bank draft as genuine. As in his phrase:



He included that it was POSSIBLE that the draft originated with Roberts, but did not know for sure. Does that prove the bank draft is phoney for you?

Perhaps you should re-read Steve's old post on that other forum? I had it open here earlier but closed it, the title was "One Upon a Time in Arizona..." and his relevant posts were well on in the thread, not sure of what page(s). His post stated, <hope this is OK, the author of it is deceased and I am not directly linking>

<
author Steve Creagar, Apr 04, 2005 on another channel as the saying used to go>


In essence this document is authorizing the disbursement of $7,000 to the order of Jacob Waltz. These funds being available at the National Bank of Lawrence, Kansas. As to how the document came to light, we simply do not know but there are at least two plausible answers, one being the work of a faker and the other being a person whom believed she was related to Waltz and had a legal claim to his mine. The fact that Laura Branstetter showed several documents to the Dons etc and this draft was apparently among those papers BEFORE Roberts entered the picture, certainly suggests (to me) that she is the source for how the document came to light, rather than Roberts whom may well have come into possession of it from her or her relatives, as you know he had insinuated himself as something of an authority on the Lost Dutchman. I don't think I have anything further which would be useful to add to this debate.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Hello Roy
You sure have a knack for getting to the heart of a subject, or question. That's another good one Roy, Ya should have been a Cop. All of these seemingly small disconnected facts put a face, and adds to the heart of the man we call Jacob, that helps to read the man, and to me this is everything! Take care, and be safe Roy.
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

As always, you make a reasonable argument. If you can find me one (1) Roberts from that era that is actually related to Kraig Roberts, was in Arizona and has generated some documentation, I will be more receptive to the story. Without his ancestors direct involvement in LDM, Superstition Mountain, Apache and Arizona history, we are left with......just an interesting bit of historical fiction.

From the EVIDENCE I have seen, none of that is possible. All of this "history" comes from one (1) source. I know you ascribe to the belief that there may be some truth in this story. On the other hand, I believe that once your source has been proven to be false, it is prudent to doubt anything that source says.......without solid proof. "Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus".

By all means please pursue the story. Anything is possible. I would love to be proven wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Hmm your opinion seems to have changed over time, it has been a while but when several points on the draft were verified like the names, you posted:

<Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:00 pm on another forum>

The draft may be phoney, as may the story of the Wells Fargo shipments, but not really proven false either. Does it prove that Waltz had a rich gold mine, IF these side-stories were proven true? Not really. These aspects don't really support or disprove anything concerning whether Waltz had a rich gold mine. In the case of the bank draft, even if 100% legit, how could we know that it was "the" Jacob Waltz, when there are other possibilities?

I still hold that it is best to stick to the oldest sources available on any lost mine or treasure, anything that appears later is questionable and we know that there are people whom will make up fake "evidence" to enhance their own personal standing, either in the Dutch hunter community or in the eyes of the world.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

I have to point out the fallacy of proving things false. Do I need to go into detail?

 

[cactusjumper]

I have to point out the fallacy of proving things false. Do I need to go into detail?

Concept.....,

I believe you are mistaken. Proving something or someone's statements false is done every single day.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

FEMF wrote

Ya should have been a Cop.

Well I was a corrections officer at a prison for a few years, does that count? (haha) Thank you for the very kind words amigo, looking forward to finally meeting you this fall (I HOPE that is, assuming we can make it).

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

As always, you make a reasonable argument. If you can find me one (1) Roberts from that era that is actually related to Kraig Roberts, was in Arizona and has generated some documentation, I will be more receptive to the story. Without his ancestors direct involvement in LDM, Superstition Mountain, Apache and Arizona history, we are left with......just an interesting bit of historical fiction.

I fail to see how Roberts is "the" key point, when we can show that Laura Branstetter was a real person, really did come to Arizona and had a number of papers linking her to Waltz, which included the bank draft? This pre-dates "our" Roberts entry into the Dutch hunting community, so if she had it in the 1940s, it cannot have originated from Roberts. Laura was practically ridiculed by the press at the time BTW, rather unfairly.

Hunt For Gold
Married 60 Years [PHOENIX, Ariz., Feb. 15. (U.R--] A pistol-packing grandmother clutching a tattered map of a lost gold mine, waited Saturday for a chance to sneak away and find it. Mrs. Laura Branstetter Middaugh, 59, and her husband, William, 67, Joplin, Mo., were ready to pack into Superstition mountains in search of the fabulously rich Lost Dutchman gold mine. They don't want anybody following them, she said. She said stories of the dead man's curse on the mine, and of the scores of searchers who vanished in the mountains and never were seen again, didn't faze her. "Land sakes, I ain't afraid of anything," she said, patting the pistol on her hip. "I came to Arizona to find the Lost Dutchman mine, and by golly I'm going to find it."

Guards Map With Care

She carefully guarded the dog- eared map handed down to her from her great-great-uncle, Jacob Walz, who dug and lost a fortune from the mine in Arizona's roaring pioneer days. She said the map showed where the gold was located. Walz, known to the Indians as "Snowbeard," died in 1892 while visiting a woman friend in Phoenix. He had kept secret the location of his treasure trove. Since then countless gold-seekers have combed the treacherous mountains 40 miles east of here. Many of them have disappeared without a trace. The hunt for the mine has become such a tourist sport that the Dons' club annually leads a party of 1,000 up the mountain in a mock search. The gold search was Mrs. Middaugh's idea, her husband only came along to "help swing the pick and shovel," Mrs. Middaugh said. To avoid preying fortune seekers they wera registered at two hotels and also gave a local address. They refused to say when they would start. "I'm not showing the map to anybody until after I get the gold," Mrs. Middaugh said. She said she was ready for any opportunists who might try to take it away from her. "I'm a pretty good shot," she said. "I've been practicing up in shooting galleries along the way. Anybody want a demonstration?"

<Tucson Daily Citizen, Feb 15th, 1947, pp2, one of a number of other articles about Laura Branstetter>

Cactusjumper also wrote

From the EVIDENCE I have seen, none of that is possible. All of this "history" comes from one (1) source. I know you ascribe to the belief that there may be some truth in this story. On the other hand, I believe that once your source has been proven to be false, it is prudent to doubt anything that source says.......without solid proof. "Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus".

By all means please pursue the story. Anything is possible. I would love to be proven wrong.

I just posted a sample in this post which shows that the story of Laura Branstetter does not originate from that single and questionable source; there are others. And as Steve had stated, some of her facts did not agree with what was known by the Dons at the time, like the death date of Waltz for example. As to how Roberts came into possession of the draft or a copy, remember at one time he was considered an authority and widely believed to be directly related to Gideon Roberts whom was the other man present in Waltz's death, so WAS TRUSTED at the time and for some years. It is perfectly reasonable to think he came into possession honestly.

The names on the draft also check out, which was done by another Dutch hunter:

James Gilfillan (The name on our document) served as the Treasurer under Hayes, Garfield and Arthur. By my interpolations, I concluded that Gilfillan served from June 30, 1877 to April 30, 1885. Hence the 1881 date is correct.

The second item is in regard to A. Hadley who signed as the Cashier.

From William G. Cutler's History of the State of Kansas (Pub 1883) - There is a biography on one Washington Hadley in Douglas County, Kansas. Below is an excerpt. (This History is online)

"In 1865, he removed to Kansas with the intention of embarking in the banking business. He settled in Lawrence and established the National Bank of Lawrence, of which he was the first President, and was for many years (in connection with his son Albert) the active and responsible manager and is still a director."

Since the History was published in 1883 it is almost definite that our A. Hadley is one Albert Hadley.

From a Genealogy Site, we can find some additional information that is referenced from "History of Whittier, California" Published 1933. The except is included below.

"Washington Hadley died December 21, 1911 and was succeeded in the presidency of the First National Bank [Whittier] by his son, Albert Hadley, who had been associated with his farther in the bank of Lawrence, KS and who was for many years cashier of the National Bank of California in Los Angeles. He was a very popular banker, who deserved and received the confidence of a wide circle of friends. At his death his son Fred W. Hadley became president."

<posted by Novice Tue Mar 22, 2005 on another forum>

The trouble is (in my opinion) that this bank draft doesn't really settle whether Waltz had a rich gold mine nor disprove he had one if the thing were false. In the scale of evidence it is rather peripheral, and we can not be SURE that it is even "the" Jacob Waltz. In favor of it being genuine we might point out that it could have been Waltz sending money to help a relative in Kansas, and this fits with Waltz's behavior toward his friends in Phoenix. The amount of gold is not massive, in fact as someone once pointed out, this amount could have been packed out by one man on his back, in one trip. On the negative side, we do not KNOW of any relatives of Waltz living in Kansas either. If he had, he seems to have never mentioned them to Julia and Reiney, and then why would he have felt a need to arrange with a neighbor to care for him in his old age? Couldn't he have written his sister to ask if he could stay with her family? Especially if he had sent her $7000? On the other hand we don't know that he had not done just that, perhaps he sent the money in hopes of establishing a welcome for himself at her home, and she refused him; stranger things have happened. How many of us have a relative who proved ungrateful after helping them with money?

For the record here - it is possible to prove things false, and as Joe just pointed out, it is done all the time. This is not a court case despite the similarities in appearance due to the debate; we do not even have a single sentence from Jacob Waltz himself, everything we have in the way of information from him has been filtered through at least two persons, and the solid evidence is indeed tenuous. In my opinion it is rather unrealistic to expect to see a lot of solid, incontrovertible evidence in a case like this.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And to Joe, yes on that 'lead' I do plan to try to run it down, but is not something that can be done overnight so maybe I should not have mentioned it until more is known. I will not keep it a secret regardless of outcome.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Concept.....,

I believe you are mistaken. Proving something or someone's statements false is done every single day.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

_____________________________

All,

I have been accused of so many false practices on this, and other sites, that there is no way I can prove they are false. Some people will no longer reply to my posts because I have publicly posted true facts. They know they are true, but it does not fit their agenda.

I am up to my eyeballs in this crap and very tired of fighting the lies. One of the truths I have been speaking of was, I believe, recently confirmed by the Mod's, and one person was banned from this site, along with his other identity. This stuff has been going on for many, many years.

I do appreciate the words of encouragement and support that I have received from my friends and even from folks I have never met. It gives me hope that the truth still has some value to many people.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[FEMF]

_____________________________

All,

I have been accused of so many false practices on this, and other sites, that there is no way I can prove they are false. Some people will no longer reply to my posts because I have publicly posted true facts. They know they are true, but it does not fit their agenda.

I am up to my eyeballs in this crap and very tired of fighting the lies. One of the truths I have been speaking of was, I believe, recently confirmed by the Mod's, and one person was banned from this site, along with his other identity. This stuff has been going on for many, many years.

I do appreciate the words of encouragement and support that I have received from my friends and even from folks I have never met. It gives me hope that the truth still has some value to many people.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Hello Joe
Roy was proving, or is proving the draft didn't come from Roberts, but by-passed Roberts as the source of the draft and moved the document closer to being viewed as a true document. I do except it now, and it puts more of a family face on Jacob! Arizona has a long History of " If you can't be with the ones you Love, Love the ones your with!" Take care and be safe Joe.
FEMF