Wells Fargo $250K <---- malarkey !!!

[Oroblanco]

Do you really want me to go back and dissect that pile of tripe you put forth? I was being kind and non confrontational, but if you need a spankin just say so.

Tripe now. Good luck and good hunting Conceptualized, I don't think I will waste any further time on you.

 

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[sgtfda]

Roy has reasons for his LDM theory. Same as others who post. Never say never. Life is strange as **** and full of surprises. Trust me I've seen my share. Roy has walked the walk except when sitting. Then scorpions run up his legs. He is not a armchair prospector. He comes to Dons Camp this year I'd take him to my areas for his opinion. That opinion I respect.

 

[txtea]

Regarding Oro's theory of Jacob sending his ore to an assay office and/or smelter in Sacramento...
I wonder if the rules were different or loosely followed, concerning what was brought in, the amount processed, and reported to the government for tax purposes, etc. from say, a private smelter that produced coins verses an office of the U.S. Mint ?


I am of course assuming here, but if these private smelters were a little more relaxed on rules/regulations and discrete about what they did, wouldn't it make sense for ol' Jacob to ship his ore to one of these places, instead of the U. S. Mint? I'm sure Uncle Sam wanted every flake accounted for and taxed...just like in today's world.

 

[sgtfda]

That before income tax

 

[txtea]

That before income tax

Well that's true, I didn't think of that, but I guess what i'm wondering is...if the private smelter didn't ask a lot of questions versus the U.S. Mint...like where it came from for instance. If Jacob wanted to keep his find a secret and keep as many people in the dark as possible, wouldn't he seek out someone else besides the U.S. Mint? This is of course assuming the U.S. Mint did ask the particulars of where it came from back then.
I doubt one could plop down a few tons of rich ore at the Mint now without starting an inquisition.

 

[deducer]

Roy has reasons for his LDM theory. Same as others who post. Never say never. Life is strange as **** and full of surprises. Trust me I've seen my share. Roy has walked the walk except when sitting. Then scorpions run up his legs. He is not a armchair prospector. He comes to Dons Camp this year I'd take him to my areas for his opinion. That opinion I respect.

I pretty much only pay attention to posts by those who have walked the walk.

Except for SH.. he goes on death marches.

 

[Oroblanco]

TxTea that is very sound logic, and actually I had not thought of that. Yes it would make perfect sense to ship to a private smelter, which would then not be broadcast to the world; in fact I know of one other case which is exactly that. (A different lost mine, Hermit John, shipped his ore quietly to a private smelter and lived like a poor man despite having struck it rich)

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and others,

"The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."

This is an original quote from United States Treasure Atlas, Volume 1, Thomas P. Terry PP 59.

You have to change the original story to fit a new one. This was not a "private mint" and there are no such records at Wells Fargo.

I will not get into another pissing match on this topic. It's just not worth it.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy and others,

"The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."

This is an original quote from United States Treasure Atlas, Volume 1, Thomas P. Terry PP 59.

You have to change the original story to fit a new one. This was not a "private mint" and there are no such records at Wells Fargo.

I will not get into another pissing match on this topic. It's just not worth it.

Good luck,

Joe

Whom is doing the story changing?

Terry's atlas was first published in 1985, and he did not include where he got his source materials from. Not to trash Terry, but there are errors in his atlases, which could be in his sources and not his own fault.

The McGee-HIgham letter dates to 1963, and makes NO mention of any MINT, nor the DATES when the gold "shipments" were made. So which "original" story do you wish to compare,for "changes"?

Details get garbled and mistakes creep in, when stories are re-told and re-told. This factor does not mean that the story is NOT based on fact.

 

[Oroblanco]

PS in defense of Mr Terry, he was amassing thousands of treasure tales, it would have been many more years work to try to sort out details which could be erroneous. I have used the Terry treasure atlases myself, and had success with them; an example was several ghost towns listed, which are not listed in any other source we found by the information he had published. Just didn't want to sound TOO down on Terry, we all make mistakes and his source(s) may have been erroneous.

 

[cactusjumper]

PS in defense of Mr Terry, he was amassing thousands of treasure tales, it would have been many more years work to try to sort out details which could be erroneous. I have used the Terry treasure atlases myself, and had success with them; an example was several ghost towns listed, which are not listed in any other source we found by the information he had published. Just didn't want to sound TOO down on Terry, we all make mistakes and his source(s) may have been erroneous.

Roy,

["The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."]

OK......I seem to remember you writing, to me, that YOU had seen the records. Could be wrong about that, but I probably still have that information.

Can you tell us where those "still existing records of Wells Fargo" can be found today?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[The McGee-HIgham letter dates to 1963, and makes NO mention of any MINT, nor the DATES when the gold "shipments" were made.

So which "original" story do you wish to compare,for "changes"?]
___________________________

[Hi, Joe,

Alas, we do not have any records of ore shipments from Arizona. All such remained the property of the shipping office, and have disappeared over the years.

Regards,

Dr. Robert J. Chandler
Senior Research Historian
Historical Services, A0101-106
Wells Fargo Bank
420 Montgomery Street
San Francisco, CA 94163-2921

Dr. Chandler gave me a call today. We probably talked for 20 or 30 minutes. I was like a kid in a candy store. Here was a man who really knew the history of the times and exactly what role Wells Fargo played in that story. I took notes. Came away from that conversation with a bit more knowledge than I started it with. Lucky day for me.]
__________________________________________

I will go with what Dr. Chandler (directlly) told me on the phone. For me, that's the best evidence available.

Higham was a notorious.........strory teller. Who wrote the pertanent information between him and the McGees? Did the McGees ever repeat that information in their writings?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

["The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."]

OK......I seem to remember you writing, to me, that YOU had seen the records. Could be wrong about that, but I probably still have that information.

Can you tell us where those "still existing records of Wells Fargo" can be found today?

Take care,

Joe

Yes we have been re-visiting this topic for at least seven years. I could not find where I had seen it, which makes a liar out of me. NO biggie however as everyone knows Oroblanco to be a great liar!

On the other hand, I am becoming less than impressed with our "experts" on Wells Fargo history. I was able to find documents showing that indeed Wells Fargo was operating (through officially contracted local outfits) in Arizona, even a case where the head of Wells Fargo got involved due to the robberies. (1879) AND that Wells Fargo was indeed hauling ORE in Arizona, in Waltz's lifetime:

A quick peek online turns up a number of sources, the Engineering and Mining Journal 1879 is online and mentions Wells Fargo several times as shipping ores; the Congressional Edition for 1889 is online at Congressional edition - United States. Congress - Google Books

<extract from page 141>
"Castle Dome district. The principal mines were practically idle during 1887. The amount of ore reported as shipped appears to have been about 12 tons carrying $840 silver and 60 per cent lead. Handsome specimens of fluorspar and of molybdate of lead are often found. Considerable placer mining was done the placers being worked with dry washers the gold being unusually coarse and pure most of which was shipped through Wells Fargo & Co's express at Yuma and the balance by private conveyance "

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-adams-diggings/267301-two-lost-adams-2.html#post2570915



I was informed by Dr Chandleer that ALL records for Arizona had been LOST. Now I see that those lost records, may not have been quite SO lost after all:

For weeks after the quake, guards watched over the sealed cash and record vaults of Wells Fargo Nevada National Bank on Montgomery Street. Finally, when it was determined that the vaults were cool enough to handle, workers were brought in to open them and retrieve their contents. Frederick Lipman, the cashier, had been waiting anxiously for this. Previously, he was told by the bank’s vice-president that all the books were destroyed:

[FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace]
The vaults had been opened… it was the worst half-hour that I ever have lived. I pictured all my future being devoted to what could be done to restore the records in our books…[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace] [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace]… I went downtown. It was the longest trip I ever took in my life. It happened that when we put the books away hastily into the vault on the 18th that some of them were just thrown in on the floor. And this book vault was built on the bank floor which was one story above the basement and it was built on [iron] framework.
[/FONT]
​

As it turned out, luck was on Lipman’s side:

[FONT=Courier New, Courier, monospace]
… It didn’t go down to the ground. So the fire in the basement had run along and it had just cooked the vault. What was on the floor was a floury ash. That was the worst part, but after that it began to be better… we found that only one ledger was destroyed. That was but one out of fifteen or sixteen. Then we found at the bottom of the vault the lower part of each book where it was found and that gave us the footing on each page. By that footing we had proof of what the limit was on that page. We felt better when we saw that. We had the footing of each page and the statements and we proved to within $100…
[/FONT]
​

Ledgers that had been stacked tightly merely charred around the edges, their pages so dense and so heavy that the superheated air could not penetrate them. The books and about $3,000,000 in gold and silver were carried out of the vaults and transferred to the new operating quarters a few blocks down Montgomery in the Union Trust Building.

<borrowed from Cooking The Books | Guided By HistoryGuided By History >

So it appears that the disastrous quake and fire did not totally destroy the record books after all, which raises the question about where they may be located today?

Cactusjumper also wrote

I will go with what Dr. Chandler (directlly) told me on the phone. For me, that's the best evidence available.

Higham was a notorious.........strory teller. Who wrote the pertanent information between him and the McGees? Did the McGees ever repeat that information in their writings?

I am sorry if I cannot agree that an historian, whom we can prove to be mistaken (viz Wells Fargo doing business in Arizona during Waltz's lifetime as example) is not the best evidence for me. Not claiming that Higham is more trustworthy than Dr Chandleer, of course.

I was not there when Higham was writing to McGee, nor vice-versa, and do not know if McGee ever repeated that information in their published works. As far as I know, the only published mention of the Wells Fargo shipments, was done by Thomas P. Terry. Perhaps you could question him, if he is still alive and kicking, as to his source(s)?

On the other hand, actions speak louder than words, we know that the Petrasches kept searching for the LDM for many years. It seems logical that they must have had a moment of doubt at some point in their searching, at which point something convinced them to continue. This "story" which you have described as "complete fiction" and a "total fabrication" etc could just be the truth, that they did get discouraged, thought Waltz had fooled them, and found those records of shipments which convinced them otherwise.

So far, on every point supposed to disprove the story, we have found contrary evidences, like the fact that there were Wells Fargo agents handling shipping of freight in AZ, that there were indeed places to send ore or gold in Sacramento, that even some assayers did accept and process ore for smelting, and so on. Not to mention that a mine as described of Waltz's, ought to have produced a considerable amount of gold even with only a few tons of ore shipped. Certainly more than a few thousand dollars worth.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Yes we have been re-visiting this topic for at least seven years. I could not find where I had seen it, which makes a liar out of me. NO biggie however as everyone knows Oroblanco to be a great liar"

"OK......I seem to remember you writing, to me, that YOU had seen the records. Could be wrong about that, but I probably still have that information."

If that infers that you are a liar, it's only so in your mind, not mine. I think I qualified that statement in the body of the message.

It's a great story for the LDM. By all means, stick to that story. For me, I am really done this time.

Give the pups a treat and Beth a kiss for me. Don't get those instructions mixed up......

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Perhaps the local shipping office records were still floating around. A set of books for the sending office and one for the receiving office. If the story is true where did the money go? If it was sent elsewhere there would be records of that. Buried at his home. I don't think. After all he was only worried about the soap box.
How did Waltz dispose of ore in the past? He had claims. People follow the same routine. We do know Waltz paid for items with nuggets at the local store not cash.

 

[Oroblanco]

Sarge wrote

Perhaps the local shipping office records were still floating around. A set of books for the sending office and one for the receiving office. If the story is true where did the money go? If it was sent elsewhere there would be records of that. Buried at his home. I don't think. After all he was only worried about the soap box.
How did Waltz dispose of ore in the past? He had claims. People follow the same routine. We do know Waltz paid for items with nuggets at the local store not cash.

Local office records are probably our best hope to ever find any documentary proof to support that Waltz shipped or sold gold ore to Wells Fargo. Another possible angle of pursuit would be the personal papers of the Petrasches; if these could be found (if they even still exist) perhaps they had possession of the actual receipts?

I sure do not have all the answers - but you are right, Waltz was seen selling small amounts of gold in several places over the years. Mitchell has the story of the incident seen by Poston and others, where he sold a burro load for several hundred dollars in Tucson. Our skeptics dismiss all of this as hearsay, stories etc but what should we expect to have? Sworn affidavits? Even those mean nothing to our skeptics, just look at the affidavits published in the back of Helen Corbin's book (Curse of the Dutchman's Gold) and even should someone state he has the actual ledgers showing Waltz as selling or shipping gold ore, I expect that would be quickly dismissed as fakes. It does not help matters that we have had a person deliberately adding false info to the Dutchman story in recent years, which ended up in several books on the topic.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

"Yes we have been re-visiting this topic for at least seven years. I could not find where I had seen it, which makes a liar out of me. NO biggie however as everyone knows Oroblanco to be a great liar"

"OK......I seem to remember you writing, to me, that YOU had seen the records. Could be wrong about that, but I probably still have that information."

If that infers that you are a liar, it's only so in your mind, not mine. I think I qualified that statement in the body of the message.

It's a great story for the LDM. By all means, stick to that story. For me, I am really done this time.

Give the pups a treat and Beth a kiss for me. Don't get those instructions mixed up.

Well it is a shame that you have lost interest in this angle of the Dutchman legend. I thought you would be interested in seeing the question pursued, for perhaps tomorrow someone will find a piece of the puzzle? Wouldn't you prefer to leave the door open, just a little, for future information that may or may not turn up? Who knows, tomorrow someone could find some actual record, or a confession by Higham that he made it up etc? However as you seem satisfied that it is proven false and do not wish to discuss it further I won't press you on it.

Perhaps I read it in Terry's atlas, and over the years confabulated it, as I have also spent a fair number of rather happy hours in county courthouses, local historical society libraries etc including looking at old ledgers. I am not infallible for memory recall. The point that I have been trying to make is that this story of the Wells Fargo shipments is not disproven <at least not for everyone, can't speak for all> and is certainly within the realm of possibilities.

If the story of the Lost Dutchman's gold mine is true, even the relatively small amount of rock mined for the small mine version should amount to a sizable value in gold. Perhaps Waltz spent it as fast as he could, like so many other prospectors of the old days, or perhaps he owed major debts somewhere and his profits went there, or it was sent to some relative, a cousin perhaps with a different last name or who knows at this point? This section of the Treasurenet forum is after all, Treasure Legends, and the subscript states the case pretty well -

Legends of lost treasure, mines, shipwrecks, and other caches are usually based on historical fact.

Details get garbled, stories get mixed, false information gets added to truth until we have the state of affairs we see today for the Lost Dutchman. I am among those convinced that it is based on fact, just that SO much BS has been added now it is tough to get at that original truth.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS here is an ad showing a local company in AZ handling Wells Fargo express business

Salt River herald., March 30, 1878 <Phoenix>pp 4

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Did I mis-spell this in the thread title?

Malarky | Define Malarky at Dictionary.com


malarkey
[muh-lahr-kee]
noun Informal.
speech or writing designed to obscure, mislead, or impress; bunkum: The claims were just a lot of malarkey.

 

[Somero]

Malarky | Define Malarky at Dictionary.com


malarkey
[muh-lahr-kee]
noun Informal.
speech or writing designed to obscure, mislead, or impress; bunkum: The claims were just a lot of malarkey.

Should have thrown "In my opinion" in that title

o·pin·ion
əˈpinyən/
noun
noun: opinion; plural noun: opinions

a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

the formal expression of a professional judgment

an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.

 

[hooch]

Vroooooom Vrooooom off to the Dutchman Mine we go!

 

[cactusjumper]

In discussing "proof" of Waltz gold, a number of people have brought up the $7,000. bank draft that was pictured in Helen Corbin's "Bible....". While that draft has been, pretty well, debunked, there is this old e-mail from Steve Creager:

[ It was my understanding - from what I heard of its history from the Roberts family - was that they received a copy of the draft from William Middaugh's daughter who showed up in Phoenix in the 1960s. But they "saw" a copy of it when Laura Middaugh came through in 1947. (Apparently even then Laura only had a "copy.") Nothing was ever mentioned to me about the Henshaws making a copy of it in the 1920s - of which, if the said event happened, no doubt the Roberts family would have seen early on - before the supposed 1947 date.


To be honest I am not sure if the Branstetter branch (that I got a copy from) got their draft copy from William Middaugh's daughter or from Laura herself or from a subsequent Dutch hunter - like Kraig Roberts. I could never get a straight answer on it - because it had been passed around so much no one knew for sure who had what when or who to believe.

All that is known is that the Branstetters proper do not possess any of the other information that Laura had. That ended up with William Middaugh's daughter. A few of Laura's decedents (from children she had prior to Middaugh) knew William's daughter and this material was discussed in the family. She used to live in Maryland Heights, MO].

That should tell you all you need to know about that "Draft".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo