WHAT TO BUY GOLD OR SILVER

[Idahodutch]

Reading this thread, I think the responses would be more appropriate in a prepper's forum. Buying metals as an investment is like buying a commercial property storage facility as an investment - but refusing to rent out the units, just to sit on the "investment" waiting for appreciation. Let me be clear. Metals are not investments. There is a difference between speculation in things and investing. At its best, holding metals can be a hedge against a market crash. But such crashes are rare. Its been 90 years since the 1929 market crash and how many people have failed to invest, and, as a result, have failed to grow wealth, since then, due to fear of such an unlikely occurrence. In addition, those who lost the most 90 years ago were those who borrowed money to invest - which is a foolish practice. There are a few who advocate for holding a small % of metals in an otherwise diversified portfolio as a hedge - but no responsible advisor would ever suggest more than 5%, if that much.

To claim that owning a share of a good company is a "ponzi scheme" shows the depth of ignorance about investing. Look at the products and services that you consider vital. Do you have a cell phone with a provider? Is that company a ponzi scheme? And if so, why would you knowingly participate in a crime. In reality, you recognize that it is a service you desire and for which you are willing to pay a price. Because of that, I invest in those companies. So i own shares of Verizon (VZ). Note: I'm NOT making specific stock recommendations but using this as an example. Do I hedge that investment with metals? No, because i think that is ridiculous. Instead, I hedge my Verizon stock with AT&T stock (T) - again, not recommending specific stocks - or stocks at all. If you liked telecom companies because of the dividends, its also easy to buy sector mutual funds like communications funds or telecom funds if you prefer mutual funds to individual stocks. Both have their place.

Do you have a favorite restaurant? Why do you like it and do others seem to like it as well? They are nearly all public companies and all the information you need is easily available online. I happen to like a sandwich shop called Potbelly's - but research shows that it is not profitable, so I haven't bought it. Maybe someday. What about the stores where you shop, or the clothes you like, or some of the services you use? What do your kids buy and why? Most of these are public companies and not "ponzi schemes". When you buy shares of them, you are a part owner of the company, albeit in a very small way. And some shareholders get special deals. When I owned Sturm Ruger decades ago, there was a shareholder discount, When I owned Rawlings even longer ago, there was a discount in their company store and shareholders could be introduced to ballplayers picking up their baseball bats back when they did such things. I don't like to bother athletes, but it is nice for kids.

Most people will never get ahead by collecting a small paycheck working for others. The only way to get ahead and to have any security is to live way below your means and invest every dollar above what you need to survive so you can have a bright future and retire in comfort. I taught myself in the 1960's before it was so easy to do research on the internet. Honestly, I taught myself more about real investing by the time I turned 10 years old than what I see in posts here. I saw my father work himself nearly to death around the clock for peanuts, fixing gas leaks during the day, then running dogs at a race track at night, and then washing floors at a college cafeteria in the early morning hours. Growing up in the Great Depression, he was opposed to real investing without understanding why. I also worked many physical jobs and tutored to put myself through college and grad school but always paid myself first by investing for the future.

The gov't provides incentives to real investing in the form of plans such as 401K, 401a, 403b, 457, and IRAs of several varieties that all defer taxes to a time when tax rates are more favorable to taking distributions. And then when you take distributions in retirement, you can invest your money in non-retirement accounts and the capital gains and dividends receive preferential tax treatment.

We like to look at and hold shiny things. I get that, but very few make money buying items at a high premium and selling them at wholesale - and to suggest that doing so is a rational alternative to investing is irresponsible.

Megalodon,
Harsh words for those just trying to save some real money.
I suspect that you may have been almost completely consumed by your greed.
It's one of the main things that can cause this kind of blindness.

Calling folks irrational for suggesting to save. You are something else.
Idahodutch

 

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[Idahodutch]

Megalodon,
Harsh words for those just trying to save some real money.
I suspect that you may have been almost completely consumed by your greed.
It's one of the main things that can cause this kind of blindness.

Calling folks irrational for suggesting to save. You are something else.
Idahodutch

Ok, I was rash to bite back. I'll lighten up a notch or two. Sorry everybody.
Idaho Dutch

 

[Ziggy-Grimm]

I only hoard silver & gold coins to show off to my fellow metal detecting/collecting nerds!

 

[Megalodon]

Megalodon,
Harsh words for those just trying to save some real money.
I suspect that you may have been almost completely consumed by your greed.
It's one of the main things that can cause this kind of blindness.

Calling folks irrational for suggesting to save. You are something else.
Idahodutch

I don't back down to bullies - internet or otherwise. To you, providing for my family by investing in responsible companies is being "consumed by greed" and "blindness". I never said it was irrational to save. I am a huge proponent of making sacrifices to save as much as possible - and its right there in my post.

One big problem on forums is that people misrepresent what others post - or they are unable or too dishonest to make fine distinctions. Either way, you have earned a spot on my tnet ignore list. Enjoy your beer by yourself.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Idaho apologized 12 hours ago. End it please.

 

[xr7ator]

If you are a metals guy, I hope you bought some palladium as it is over $2500 an ounce now!

 

[Finder Bear]

Good for you! At today's valuations, paying down and eliminating debt is the very best investment you can make. Start with the highest interest rate loan and work your way to the lowest. If you must use a credit card, use only a cash reward card and pay it off immediately. Never carry a balance.

After taxes come back I will only have one $3k loan to finish off over the next 6 months and I’ll be debt free except the house. I plan to make $2k payments on the house and sell once I have $20k positive equity and then buy something a little more reasonably priced and pay that one off completely over 5-7 years, after that I will no longer be a slave to the lender! Cash only!!!

 

[Megalodon]

After taxes come back I will only have one $3k loan to finish off over the next 6 months and I’ll be debt free except the house. I plan to make $2k payments on the house and sell once I have $20k positive equity and then buy something a little more reasonably priced and pay that one off completely over 5-7 years, after that I will no longer be a slave to the lender! Cash only!!!

That sounds like a good plan, Finder Bear. If you know that you will pay off a mortgage early, consider a 15 year loan rather than a 30 year; 15 year loans have even lower interest rates than 30's. I'm sure you know to look for all the factors for home location, but also consider air & drinking water quality, things that are often overlooked but can make a difference to your health over a long term. Pollution is our biggest negative, but we endure it for now to be close to our grandson.

 

[Timecop67]

If you are a metals guy, I hope you bought some palladium as it is over $2500 an ounce now!

Yes was eyeing palladium a year or two back and kicking myself for not buying some then. I have no doubt the other metals may rise some in price just not as much as palladium. 2k for an ounce of gold may not be far off especially if they don't contain the coronavirus.

 

[A2coins]

Man this is some threat lol, Ill go out on a limb and attempt to answer the OP from a "non investor" mindset as I'm still trying to get out of debt so I'm following the Dave Ramsey plan. If I were to have money in my pocket I would buy a boat load of 90% junk silver coin, I say this because you will get more actual metal weight without the premium than you will with any "pretty" coin of either metal. If your doing this purchase from an "investment" standpoint the premiums are going to make or break the deal at buy and sell time. Just my thoughts!

But to be used in has to be refined I like the bars better

 

[Idahodutch]

But to be used in has to be refined I like the bars better

Good morning A2,
Silver is quite the animal. Ratio found in the earth crust campared to gold is less than 9 ounces of silver for 1 ounce of gold.
The monetary exchange between gold and silver has fluctuated greatly over the last 50 years. Before that it was around 9 or 10 ounces of silver to get an ounce of gold for thousands of years, right now it is some where around 80 ounces of silver to get an ounce of gold.
The price of silver if it was 10 to 1 with gold today, it would cost over $160 per ounce. Right now, it is less than $19
That is a sgnificant difference. So this whole fiat mone printing thing is coming to a head. It doesn't matter a great deal if you get bars, coins, rounds. The important thing to keep in mind, if you are thinking about getting some, it is about the best time right now before things swing back (which they will). The premiums only are going make a difference if you have to liquidate before the tide starts to swing the other way. After that, any premiums you paid will be so insignificant in comparison, it won't matter. If doing silver for quick buck, good luck. That is like a crap shoot.
Idaho Dutch

Ps, It wasn't till around the 1500s that the exchange ratio, silver to gold went up to the teens.
That's about where it was when US started silver and gold coinage. It is only recent history that the arena has been altered, to the point that regular folk now have grown up in this. Unless someone decides to look at our monetary system from outside our current day to day box, it seems normal. The gold/silver prices we see have been manipulated so much, for so long, that it has really skewed the perception of the general public. That perception is not the same around the world.

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning A2,
Silver is quite the animal. Ratio found in the earth crust campared to gold is less than 9 ounces of silver for 1 ounce of gold.
The monetary exchange between gold and silver has fluctuated greatly over the last 50 years. Before that it was around 9 or 10 ounces of silver to get an ounce of gold for thousands of years, right now it is so where around 80 ounces of silver to get an ounce of gold.
The price of silver if it was 10 to 1 with gold today, it would cost over $160 per ounce. Right now, it is less than $19
That is a sgnificant difference. So this whole fiat mone printing thing is coming to a head. It doesn't matter a great deal if you get bars, coins, rounds. The important thing to keep in mind, if you are thinking about getting some, it is about the best time right now before things swing back (which they will). The premiums only are going make a difference if you have to liquidate before the tide starts to swing the other way. After that, any premiums you paid will be so insignificant in comparison, it won't matter. If doing silver for quick buck, good luck. That is like a crap shoot.
Idahodutch

I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future, when folks think about how much something cost, that it will not be in terms of dollars and cents, rather, in terms of ounces and grams.
Time will tell,
Idahodutch

 

[EQ8]

OK, FIRST off, I am NOT posting this to argue or make any claims or advise anyone in ANY way.
That said..I am 66 years young. I have loved silver since I held my first half dollar. I have bought and sold a lot of silver over the years. I have had (and sold) a few NICE coin collections.
Now.. MY observations..
I have a couple of very good friends who have gone the "investor" route with their stocks, bonds etc. One has two brand new cars, a house near me and a REAL nice house in Georgia near Atlanta. He and his wife have traveled to EVERY National Park in the country. They have traveled ALL over the world, including Europe, Australia and New Zealand. They also have three very successful children.
Another friend, who is heavily vested in the railroads has a nice brand new Honda, a nice big house, and as a philanthropist gives away more money that I ever made.
As I said, I have always loved silver (and still do) and what I have is a three room apartment, a 20 year old van, no savings, and a lot of silver. Say what you want about the metals. I won't argue one bit. BUT face the facts. The reason I am not "rich" like my friends is because I never learned how to invest in the markets. The BIG metals ship could come in at any moment, but in the meantime, my friends get MUCH more just in dividends than I get for Social Security.
And at the risk of repeating myself, if/when silver hits $150 an ounce, the market will be SO flooded it will drop to 2 bucks over night. AGAIN!! I AM NOT trying to argue OR change ANYONE'S opinion.

 

[Idahodutch]

EQ8,
I feel the pain. Something to help, a website that is a LIVE chart of many things. On the lower right hand side, there are a couple of points of interest you might want to look at.
The first is the Dollar to Silver Ratio - Now (right now it shows $1,063 per ounce of silver)
The second is Dollar to Gold Ratio - Now (right now it shows $8,811 per ounce of gold)
Now, I don't know how accurate the numbers that the US govt puts out, or just exactly what the parameters actually are for these but I do find it somewhat telling of what we might expect if things like our monetary system were to change or be re-set or something.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

Your descendants may be set for generations because of you.
Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

EQ8,
I feel the pain. Something to help, a website that is a LIVE chart of many things. On the lower right hand side, there are a couple of points of interest you might want to look at.
The first is the Dollar to Silver Ratio - Now (right now it shows $1,063 per ounce of silver)
The second is Dollar to Gold Ratio - Now (right now it shows $8,811 per ounce of gold)
Now, I don't know how accurate the numbers that the US govt puts out, or just exactly what the parameters actually are for these but I do find it somewhat telling of what we might expect if things like our monetary system were to change or be re-set or something.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

Your descendants may be set for generations because of you.
Idaho Dutch

Just a side note of interest - On the Debt clock, the ratio of $1,063 to $8,811 = 8.288 to 1

 

[fistfulladirt]

To the moon!

 

[Timecop67]

OK, FIRST off, I am NOT posting this to argue or make any claims or advise anyone in ANY way.
That said..I am 66 years young. I have loved silver since I held my first half dollar. I have bought and sold a lot of silver over the years. I have had (and sold) a few NICE coin collections.
Now.. MY observations..
I have a couple of very good friends who have gone the "investor" route with their stocks, bonds etc. One has two brand new cars, a house near me and a REAL nice house in Georgia near Atlanta. He and his wife have traveled to EVERY National Park in the country. They have traveled ALL over the world, including Europe, Australia and New Zealand. They also have three very successful children.
Another friend, who is heavily vested in the railroads has a nice brand new Honda, a nice big house, and as a philanthropist gives away more money that I ever made.
As I said, I have always loved silver (and still do) and what I have is a three room apartment, a 20 year old van, no savings, and a lot of silver. Say what you want about the metals. I won't argue one bit. BUT face the facts. The reason I am not "rich" like my friends is because I never learned how to invest in the markets. The BIG metals ship could come in at any moment, but in the meantime, my friends get MUCH more just in dividends than I get for Social Security.
And at the risk of repeating myself, if/when silver hits $150 an ounce, the market will be SO flooded it will drop to 2 bucks over night. AGAIN!! I AM NOT trying to argue OR change ANYONE'S opinion.

If you have been following this long thread it is best to go with a certain percentage of your investments in metals off the grid and that is about 3 to 5% of your total assets and the rest in long term investments. Off the grid due to divorce, bankruptcy, nursing home rackets, government prying eyes etc. That means not putting all your eggs in one basket....diversify. Metals are a limited resource like oil......when the supply dries up there will be no more unless they start mining asteroids in the future. So the price in my opinion if the metal is used in industry has nowhere to go but up.....they can only manipulate the price for so long.

 

[Idahodutch]

If you have been following this long thread it is best to go with a certain percentage of your investments in metals off the grid and that is about 3 to 5% of your total assets and the rest in long term investments. Off the grid due to divorce, bankruptcy, nursing home rackets, government prying eyes etc. That means not putting all your eggs in one basket....diversify. Metals are a limited resource like oil......when the supply dries up there will be no more unless they start mining asteroids in the future. So the price in my opinion if the metal is used in industry has nowhere to go but up.....they can only manipulate the price for so long.

Timecop, I agree with most of what you say. The part I see differently, is only with the stability of the markets right now, or lack thereof. One of the signs that things are getting ready to bust loose, is when gold starts having rapid swings of over $100. We just had something like that happen last night. Markets look like they are wobbling. If there was ever a time to diversify out of the markets, it might be before they topple. Imho
I hear folks say diversify, but everything talked about seems to be digital, tracked by computers. To me, if somebody has all their stuff in the digital realm, in my opinion, that is having all eggs in the digital basket. Lord help us if someone trips over the plug.
Idahodutch

 

[Timecop67]

Timecop, I agree with most of what you say. The part I see differently, is only with the stability of the markets right now, or lack thereof. One of the signs that things are getting ready to bust loose, is when gold starts having rapid swings of over $100. We just had something like that happen last night. Markets look like they are wobbling. If there was ever a time to diversify out of the markets, it might be before they topple. Imho
I hear folks say diversify, but everything talked about seems to be digital, tracked by computers. To me, if somebody has all their stuff in the digital realm, in my opinion, that is having all eggs in the digital basket. Lord help us if someone trips over the plug.
Idahodutch

I know what you mean about market stability right now. I moved everything in my 401k to stable money markets 6 months ago......even that is not insured by the government but hope to not take a hit there but nothing is ever guaranteed. The rest of my assets are in govt insured CDs and finally my gold and silver stock. Hope they find a cure for that virus soon but last I heard it was a year out or so. Also heard that summer time heat seems to lessen the spread like the common cold and virus doesn't like humidity. Might be a good time to pick up face masks while a person still can.......if it ever takes root here in the US masks will be in demand.....but summer is right around the corner by several months now.

 

[Mackaydon]

Until the Cvirus is controlled, the fear factor will raise the value of both silver and gold; take your pick.
(I would prefer gold if I had the option.)
Don...