Whites new discriminating PI

[bakergeol]

Well the cat is finally out of the bag. After all this time of rumors of a new Whites discriminating PI- some testers have finally verified what is common knowledge among PI addicts.

Here is a quote from Jimmy Sierra on another forum.
"Now to get to the point.. Whites new pulse unit is NOT being intentionally designed as a multi purpose detector. Our main focus from the onset was to design it for gold prospecting. I have been fortunate from the beginning to be able to work with Whites engineer and Eric Foster in laying out the interface etc. and testing its performance in the field. Gold prospecting has always been my main focus and I had my fingers in all of the goldmasters from the very first one.

What we have found during this process is that the way in which we control the Pulse Delay allows the unit to be adjusted or optimized for detecting both low conductive metals (like gold) or high conductive metals (like silver) and likewise, for small targets and large targets. Thus the unit can be just as comfortably used for beach and relic hunting as it is for gold prospecting, with no loss of performance. The common characteristic necessary for its performance is its ability to ignore ground minerals."

As this has an Eric Foster input it should be a formidable PI. It will be interesting to see if this model has a large range of pulse delays for different metal IDs. An announcement before July 4 was mentioned by another tester.

George

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

I have seen the prototype in use. While it is true, that it can tell high vs low conductors, it can not tell iron vs high conductors. So nails and dimes/quarters sound the same. This may be fine for the beach, where hunters do not care about penny, quarters, dimes, etc.... (they are focused on low conductors/gold), it will not be usable on land, lest you go crazy digging nails.

At the present point, you can use any TID machine, and cherry pick out the lows, by simply passing up high conductors and iron. So to that extent, this is nothing new. For example, with my Excaliber, when the beach storm action is hot (lots of signals to choose from), I sometimes pass high conductors already, so I don't see how this new Whites is anything new. The only advantage I can see is that perhaps, as a pulse, it can tackle nastier black sands than the VLF disc. can.

I also didn't see much depth increase over VLF disc, but we weren't specifically testing that ability at the time I saw it, so I could be wrong. Air tests for sure though showed me that it's topping out at 10" or so, no diff. than a variety of current machines.

Not sure about nugget hunting, as I'm not into that niche.

 

[bakergeol]

I have seen the prototype in use. While it is true, that it can tell high vs low conductors, it can not tell iron vs high conductors. So nails and dimes/quarters sound the same. This may be fine for the beach, where hunters do not care about penny, quarters, dimes, etc.... (they are focused on low conductors/gold), it will not be usable on land, lest you go crazy digging nails.

At the present point, you can use any TID machine, and cherry pick out the lows, by simply passing up high conductors and iron. So to that extent, this is nothing new. For example, with my Excaliber, when the beach storm action is hot (lots of signals to choose from), I sometimes pass high conductors already, so I don't see how this new Whites is anything new. The only advantage I can see is that perhaps, as a pulse, it can tackle nastier black sands than the VLF disc. can.

I also didn't see much depth increase over VLF disc, but we weren't specifically testing that ability at the time I saw it, so I could be wrong. Air tests for sure though showed me that it's topping out at 10" or so, no diff. than a variety of current machines.

Not sure about nugget hunting, as I'm not into that niche.

Interesting. With Eric involved I wonder how much Whites new PI is modeled after Eric's GS5. Part of what you posted has some similarities to the GS5. The GS5's pulse delay is geared toward gold and it is incredible hot for gold such as very small gold nuggets or small high value womens rings. However,this lower pulse delay was not hot on coins and it's coin depth could be easily matched by current VLFs in neutral ground. It of course would be a different story in highly mineralized ground.

However, Jimmy's brief description suggests a more variable pulse delay which the GS5 lacks. Taking a lesson from the Infinium which also has a more variable pulse delay this feature may be better suited for coin detection and metal ID. Using an ellipitcal coil(toe versus middle of the coil detection) with a extreme pulse delay range one can go far in metal ID.

With regards to not distinguishing nails from high conductor coins- well I guess we will find out how much White's PI is modeled after the GS5. Distinguishing all iron regardless of size or shape from high conductor coins is a no brainer for the GS5. However, the technique was unknown at the time the GS5 was released and initially one had the same problem with small iron such as nails with the GS5. You have to remember that the main objective was gold. I imagine a lot of GS5 owners are still unaware of the technique as it is not in the manual.

George

 

[Tom_in_CA]

George, yes it was the GS5. The operator (a Whites dealer who had been asked to check out this "prototype") could in no way distinguish iron. He THOUGHT he could do it by sound. Ie.: nails would sound long and thin, or in some other way "different". But the tone was the same as the high conductors. Maybe he did distinguish some obvious iron, d/t they were not "round" sounding, like a coin would be. But he was fooled by bent nails, iron washers, etc.... The Explorer we were comparing it to that day was kicking its b*tt all over the place. We tried it @ turf, and then a nail riddled cove-pocket beach. In each case the Explorer got deeper and was faster, better TID, more coins, etc... One exception was that the GS5 did get a gold earing at the turf, but this was not a target that the Explorer sampled. The earing was not that deep, so perhaps the Exp. would've had no problem hearing it. Then again, from a strategy standpoint, this particular park didn't lack low conductors everywhere anyhow, so if foil, tabs, beaver-tails, nickels, etc... was what a guy wanted, he could fill his apron full of them anytime he wanted, even with a cheap machine. I was more interested in seeing if this GS5 could be made to find silver at pulse depths (depths I had seen from other beach pulse machines). But it was not suited for this at all.

What is your way to distinguish iron vs high conductors that you say is not in the manual?

You're right: the GS5 would not get penny/dimes any deeper than a standard VLF, so I don't see it's value as a silver hunter in the parks. What I don't understand is this: There are some pulse machines that will get high conductors at over 1 ft. on the beach easily (and nickels deeper still). Why can't Whites discriminating pulse be tuned to get high conductors like those other pulse machines? If a machine could be made to reliably get penny/dimes at a foot or more, while retaining the ability to distinguish those from iron and low conductors, that would be a KILLER silver hunter machine. At present, the deepest a guy can get penny/dimes, while still retaining a reasonable TID, is about 10", in my opinion (or deeper, if you want to chase iffies). If a machine could be reliable at a foot deep for those, that extra 2" would open up a gold mine in some of the parks I can think of.

 

[bakergeol]

Hi Tom

Yes the GS5 is not something I would use for coin hunting. I have menitioned this in a few posts. It's pulse delay and pulse width is designed for small gold. The GS5 is different than other PIs in that it has a very low pulse delay (10us-20uS). This very low pulse delay is ideal for small gold and other small lower conductors. It will blow away an Explorer for small gold rings and nickels in the depth department. The feeling is if you buy a $2300 PI for beach use you are looking for small high value women's rings. High conductor coins at the beach are actually viewed as trash along with iron by a lot of users. The GS5 is simply geared for small gold not small high conductors.Slightly larger lower conductors such as minnie balls will produced a low tone instead of a good high signal as small gold rings do.

Now Eric does have a modification for silver which is probably an increase in pulse width(I am not an engineer). The pulse width of the GS5 is 100uSto 200uS? The highest pulse widths are required when searching for large highly conductive targets such as large silver items. This is why Dave's pulse devil with 250us, 500us, 750us and 1000us pulse widths will make it a formitable machine for high conductor silver.

Now the question is will Eric's silver modification be made in the new White's machine and also will a more extreme variable pulse delay be made in the new machine. It is possible the new White's machine may have significant improvement over the GS5.

With regards to iron ID for the GS5. The standard practice for iron ID as put forth in the manual was using the GS5 in GB mode with the GB between 12:00 and 3:00. Here most iron( exceptions are heat treated steel such as bottle caps) will produce a low tone along with high conductor coins. In additon iron will commonly produce a double blip and it may not have a clean signal. However, this is NOT how I use the GS5. I only use the GB mode for metal ID and I run it in regular PI mode. I can do this because I am not in extreme mineralized ground and use a DD coil. The GS5 is most sensitive with great depth in the PI mode(no metal ID) but once you engage GB mode(ID mode) you are losing depth. The GS5 in PI mode and GB mode are two different machines in the depth department. If the tester was Iding metals he was in the least sensitive mode. So I use the GS5 with the mag(Ferrous Hound) in PI mode and check each target with the mag(just move the target over the mag sensor to the right of the coil). When I see a non ferrous response I engage the GB to check the target. It is set at the 10:00 position. In this position all iron regardless of size and shape will produce a high signal whereas high conductor coins and low conductor items greater than 10 grams will produce a low tone. Signal strength tells you a lot as coins are short signals whereas large low conductors are broad based. At this position all low tones are non ferrous. Broad based high tones here will be iron. If you have a small high tone here it is either small iron, small brass or small low conductors. Advance the GB to roughtly the 1:00 position and small brass can be IDed. Advance the GB to the 3:00 position and the iron will now have a low tone(commonly with double blip) and small low conductors will still retain their high tone. Most of the targets I check are non ferrous as I am already using a mag. The mag is also good for IDing bottlecaps which will produce a high tone like small gold, however the mag cannot detect bottlecaps beyond 6". I dig little iron but my setup will become obsolete when Dave produces his Pulse Devil.

One major advantage the GS5 has over Minelab GPs is that it can distinuish large non ferrous items ( e.g. nuggets over 10 grams) from iron at the 10:00 position. If you can detect it- you can determine if it is ferrous or not. I can readily distinuish a aluminium pop can(or large gold nugget) from an iron tin can which is something the GPs cannot do.


HH
George

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well if it's true that the GS5 CAN be made to distinguish iron vs high conductors, the dealer I saw trying it (and saying he could do it), certainly couldn't do it. At least not reliably. He was trying various techniques he had been told by Whites prototype persons direct, but perhaps he just wasn't proficient enough yet.

But in any case, it's a mute point if it won't get high conductors any deeper than current VLF discriminators. In other words, if someone was aiming for high conductors (deep silver hunting in parks), they'd be just as well off with an Explorer or whatever. However, if, as you say, a GS5 could be tuned to favor silver better, than that would be interesting indeed. It's no secret that some pulse machines that Eric has made will get penny/dimes to over a foot deep. That's deeper than an Explorer can go. So if this new pulse could get a foot deep on penny/dimes, AND be able to distinguish them from iron and low conductors at the same time, then that would be an Explorer-killer, eh?

 

[bakergeol]

Hi Tom

There has always been a lack of communication with GS5 users. I imagine there just isn't very many of us. I have posted my results on Eric's forum inviting others to jump in but with little success.

I have always felt that a PI which is used for something other than pure gold hunting should have extreme adjustable settings. I can actually distinuish different coin types with different settings (GB, Pulse delay, toe versus middle of the ellipical coil sweeps) on my GS5. I can actually distinuish silver dimes from copper pennies but the practice is time consuming and the ID technique list is long.

I think it is a little bit too early to suggest that White's new model is a GS5 clone. After all Jimmy's post appeared to suggest a variable pulse delay suitable for silver. The final product may be different that the prototype which you saw.

Time will tell
George