Why did Travis Tumlinson Fake the Stone Maps as a Hoax?

[Old]

I respond with a great deal of trepidation. I sure don't want another thread locked or folks banned from the site. Seems that happens all too often when you and I have a talk. Why?, I don't know.

Being a child of the 50's and 60's I am very familiar with how the local men and boys would congregate at the service station. It was the place to be for "men" stuff. My brothers and their friends did exactly the same thing. My younger brother (older than I, he being the middle child and I the baby) had a 1930 something Plymouth that he worked on there constantly. He drove it years with a kitchen chair in place behind the steering wheel until he could get an interior seat <g>. I digress.

I picture Phil's station being similar as the place where all the boys and men hung out doing "men stuff". A good portion of that men stuff included the telling of adventures. Some, I'm sure, embellished. Say it ain't so .........that the deer get bigger racks and the fish get bigger with each telling of the story. Such was the "exhibit" of the artifacts. Which were not just artifacts but a number of odd things to catch folks attention and amuse their interest. Like the HUGE rattlesnake that was also a part of the exhibit.

I ask you with all sincerity........just how much money do you think this exhibit (for lack of a better word) brought in? Hardly more than beer money I'd guess. Might have keep the cold chest of drinks refilled but I hardly think it funded extended expeditions into Arizona. Could be wrong......just guessing.

 

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[markmar]

Lynda

If Travis carved the three stone maps ( trail map and horse/priest map ) then he should be the man who carved the Latin heart and the crosses stone maps . All this because the Latin heart fits in the stone trail heart hole and the crosses fit in the shape of the cross behind the upper stone trail map .
Also , a stone cross has the words " Santa Fe " like in the horse map , and the other stone cross has carved an arch which is mentioned in the Latin heart and a heart like in the stone trail map .
Could anyone prove how Travis carved all the stone maps ? Was that possible ?

 

[sdcfia]

Bill,

Will you name for me any people Travis directly deceived? This is a trick question of sorts.

I don't know of anyone Travis hoaxed, conned, extorted money from, lead astray. Or any such thing. Robert? Maybe. Robert's story is different from Travis'.

I really don't want to get into another who shot John over anything that may be going on currently. I'm just voicing my view point that Travis didn't do half of what many blame him for.

Did folks fall all over themselves to possess the stones that he guarded to the day he died? Yes, they did. Did they know what to do with them once they saw them? Apparently not. Is that Travis' fault? I don't think so.

It's my contention that one option in this melodrama must be that Travis himself (and possibly his ancestors back to Pegleg) was deceived. If so, that means that all that originated with Travis - while intriguing in a mystery-thriller sort of way, and sellable as a human interest piece - may be irrelevant to the ultimate truth that underlies the enigma of the mother map(s) - is it authentic or not? By the way, don't expect the true original map(s) to be published anytime soon (unless it's already known to be fraudulent, that is).

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

I respond with a great deal of trepidation. I sure don't want another thread locked or folks banned from the site. Seems that happens all too often when you and I have a talk. Why?, I don't know.

Being a child of the 50's and 60's I am very familiar with how the local men and boys would congregate at the service station. It was the place to be for "men" stuff. My brothers and their friends did exactly the same thing. My younger brother (older than I, he being the middle child and I the baby) had a 1930 something Plymouth that he worked on there constantly. He drove it years with a kitchen chair in place behind the steering wheel until he could get an interior seat <g>. I digress.

I picture Phil's station being similar as the place where all the boys and men hung out doing "men stuff". A good portion of that men stuff included the telling of adventures. Some, I'm sure, embellished. Say it ain't so .........that the deer get bigger racks and the fish get bigger with each telling of the story. Such was the "exhibit" of the artifacts. Which were not just artifacts but a number of odd things to catch folks attention and amuse their interest. Like the HUGE rattlesnake that was also a part of the exhibit.

I ask you with all sincerity........just how much money do you think this exhibit (for lack of a better word) brought in? Hardly more than beer money I'd guess. Might have keep the cold chest of drinks refilled but I hardly think it funded extended expeditions into Arizona. Could be wrong......just guessing.

Id guess he just would need some gas money, and some pork and beans back then. No need for a GPS,Nikon camera,Glock, Super Action gloves,Super Action Traction Boots. Just bring the stones out,put them on display at my station,Ill fill your tank.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

the stone carving looks like a looney tunes cartoon . not even good enough for disney cartoons .

Yea, the whole style of it just doesn't seem right.

 

[Hal Croves]

I respond with a great deal of trepidation. I sure don't want another thread locked or folks banned from the site. Seems that happens all too often when you and I have a talk. Why?, I don't know.

Being a child of the 50's and 60's I am very familiar with how the local men and boys would congregate at the service station. It was the place to be for "men" stuff. My brothers and their friends did exactly the same thing. My younger brother (older than I, he being the middle child and I the baby) had a 1930 something Plymouth that he worked on there constantly. He drove it years with a kitchen chair in place behind the steering wheel until he could get an interior seat <g>. I digress.

I picture Phil's station being similar as the place where all the boys and men hung out doing "men stuff". A good portion of that men stuff included the telling of adventures. Some, I'm sure, embellished. Say it ain't so .........that the deer get bigger racks and the fish get bigger with each telling of the story. Such was the "exhibit" of the artifacts. Which were not just artifacts but a number of odd things to catch folks attention and amuse their interest. Like the HUGE rattlesnake that was also a part of the exhibit.

I ask you with all sincerity........just how much money do you think this exhibit (for lack of a better word) brought in? Hardly more than beer money I'd guess. Might have keep the cold chest of drinks refilled but I hardly think it funded extended expeditions into Arizona. Could be wrong......just guessing.

Old,
You are correct, this is just a talk and as long as its kept respectful, we shouldn't feel like we are walking on rice paper. You asked a question and I responded to it based on the story as it is being told which, is not my story. It doesn't honestly matter if it was one dollar or two thousand, if the stones that Travis carved were put on display and represented as artifacts, like most of the CRG collection, the intent was there and it could not be called anything but a deception. The townsfolk were deceived which, is a painful truth if, it is the truth.

Perhaps there was a disclaimer that went along with the display, I don't know. We only have the story as it is being shared.

We got nailed here last night 26"+. I hope that the storm passed you without too much trouble.
It proved to be too much for Rip Van Croves.

View attachment 1264250

 

[adtofca]

LOL bring the stones out .
question is why this LDM has never been found if it is real ? have people noticed that all the treasure legends in the list have never been found
to this very day ? one day in the area of Socorro when I was just 10 or 11 we went to this crazy canyon with a bunch of rocks standing on other
rocks because grampa heard that a treasure was in that canyon and that all the rock that are stood up on other rock is a sure sign of treasure
near by and granpa with my aunt and me were talking to this indian/mexican guy who was a sheep herd and grampa asked him about the
rocks standing up all over the mountains .
the man told grampa that for many years his family been there raising sheep and when they sat around watching the sheep they would
carve on rocks and stand up little monuments of rocks just to have something to do .
The guy asked my aunt if her kids made sand castles and little stick houses when they play and i said yes we do and he said that is what
they did to and when they were watching the sheep they made fort and put rocks on big rocks and threw other rocks to try and knock
the rocks over because it was boring to just baby sit sheep and do nothing .
My granpa said that is what he thought and we never went back to that place again . the guy said if we see painted things on rocks that it is just something the indians liked to do and it was not for treasure or for a mine but for water springs and trees that have food on them . one he showed us he said was to show
that pear cactus was growing up a side draw and it was a sign for those .

 

[adtofca]

Mr. Groves why do you have no gloves on your hands in the picture of you ? Mr. Nelson says to say hi to all of you .

 

[Old]

Hard to tell how much snow we received. Drafts vary from 18" to 24". Can't tell drafts from actual footage. Looks like we may dig out by Memorial Day <g>. Nothing moving here.

 

[adtofca]

i forgot tot tell about the cross that are scratched on rocks that granpa asked the sheep herd guy about and this is what thye man said
he said that the cross was carved for protection and sometimes they carve three cross for the trinity father son holy gost and a saint is made
sometimes and they take it to put near the herd where the sheep eat to help protect the sheep and he said a lot of people like us come and look
and they see the cross and think in means church treasure and he laughed and he want to tell them no .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Funny Hal, the temp here is down to 76 F Still colder than

 

[sgtfda]

Head south. Sleeping outside will kill you.

 

[Hal Croves]

Mr. Groves why do you have no gloves on your hands in the picture of you ? Mr. Nelson says to say hi to all of you .
View attachment 1264254

I honestly can't stand having my hands covered and the cold doesn't seem to bother me. I do however recommend wearing a thick pair of leather gloves for those who are planning to spend time in the Superstitions especially off trail.

Mr. Nelson, one of the best.

 

[Hal Croves]

Funny Hal, the temp here is down to 76 F Still colder than

19 this morning with a high of 31 today dropping to 12 by sun up.
We have power which is about all one could hope for.

The NJ coast is in bad shape.

 

[Hal Croves]

Head south. Sleeping outside will kill you.

Absolutely true. Its a bad habit.

 

[Azquester]

We've been eating at Willies favorite Mexican Restaurant since the 1980's here in the Old Pueblo. Just watch it when you order a "Budd" or Chicken "Pot" Pies!

I'll never do that again!

Mr. Groves why do you have no gloves on your hands in the picture of you ? Mr. Nelson says to say hi to all of you .
View attachment 1264254

 

[Azquester]

Old,
You are correct, this is just a talk and as long as its kept respectful, we shouldn't feel like we are walking on rice paper. You asked a question and I responded to it based on the story as it is being told which, is not my story. It doesn't honestly matter if it was one dollar or two thousand, if the stones that Travis carved were put on display and represented as artifacts, like most of the CRG collection, the intent was there and it could not be called anything but a deception. The townsfolk were deceived which, is a painful truth if, it is the truth.

Perhaps there was a disclaimer that went along with the display, I don't know. We only have the story as it is being shared.

We got nailed here last night 26"+. I hope that the storm passed you without too much trouble.
It proved to be too much for Rip Van Croves.

View attachment 1264250

That snowfall is about what I remember from my childhood days in the Midwest nothing out of the norm.

Hal, I know that photo's in black and white but is that some yellow snow your laying in?

Is that a bag of peanuts you have sticking out of your pocket?

I wouldn't stay there to long a squirrel may come out of that tree and eat your nuts.

 

[Azquester]

Hello Bill,

Interesting questions.

Who is to say that Tumlinson had anything to do with the creation of the maps. The reason i say that is there is strong evidence he did not. For example in a dialogue that occurred here sometime ago both Joe and Sarge testified that Tom Kollenborn told them a different history:

Originally Posted by sgtfda
Had to go to the Apache Junction fruit market today so I decided to meet up with Tom K at the Blue Bird. By the way they have a set of the stones on display in the front window. Copies just like the museum. God everyone has them. Tom told me a acquaintance made the stones in the 30's and placed them in the FJ spot. I asked why there and he said the guy was working in the area. This person also worked as a tombstone engraver. Which explains a lot. I wanted to ask him about the Burns from Burns Ranch and the pitt mine. The stones came up after I noticed the window display. I will still keep a open mind as its fun to play with the issue.

Frank,

Tom told me this story some time ago. Not much chance he will ever divulge the name. I believe it to be true.

Take care,

Joe

So who do you believe? If the stone maps(the ones in the public view) are a modern creation i believe Sarge`s and Joe`s testimony. If Mr. Kollenborn recants his testimony, good then move on but if he does not then maybe Mr. Kollenburn will be persuaded in the interest of historical accuracy to provide more detail. I would hate to think he would allow the current situation to continue if he knew it not to be true. Or perhaps his silence is an indicator the folks in Texas are going down the right trail.

It seems to me that one of the first things those folks would do is look into Mr. Kollenborn`s position. If that position is that the maps were created by someone he knew then that puts most of their work into the realm of historical fantasy.

And really historical fantasy is ok. A story involving folks and their efforts to send Travis to the other side make for good drama. I would probably buy the book and watch the movie, tv program whatever. It is important though to know what one is getting into.

it very well maybe though if one is interested in the truth your time would be better spent going down a different trail. Let us assume for the moment the tombstone engraver is the correct clue to pursue. How then does all of this fit into the story.

Maybe our tombstone engraver had a relationship with Travis or someone in the family that no one knew about. We are told that Travis was secretive and who knows?

I would also keep one thing in mind. Travis said he found the Stone Maps. He never indicated anywhere he created them. Perhaps this is because our tombstone engraver did, so Travis was telling the truth.

For me this subject, should be approached with great care and focus. Travis it seems was an interesting fellow I suspect the tombstone engraver is far more interesting. The trail maps are beautiful and speak to ancient, ancient things. Maps a tombstone engraver may have created not Travis. Think of the inserts. Do you see any evidence Travis had the skill set to do that? I really do not. It is one thing to carve graffiti on a chimney it is another thing to create a work of art. Also ask the question why would Travis even think to create an insert?

Let`s look into one more piece of evidence that is summarily discarded by our friends in Texas as being a fraud. That is the Latin Heart. The Latin Heart it is argued is simply the creation of someone trying to piggyback the legend with another piece of imagination and has no validity. Obviously it has no validity in the new reality but if it is real then those folks have more problems. First the Latin heart was created to fit into the trail maps, and second the Latin heart is as Jim Hyatt has pointed out uses ancient Latin. A form of Latin that one would expect to see let us say around 900A.D. Actually a lot older. Why would someone use ancient Latin? Perhaps because ancient Latin opens a gate to who created the Latin Heart. It is the language he/she used in everyday life.

Perhaps our friends in Texas should recognize there is much to learn and only a small piece of it has anything to do with the Tumlinsons. Only then can an authentic history of the essence of the maps be understood. And actually it makes far better reading. A good starting point for them would be a discovery made by Mr. George Boundey in 1926 near Casa Grande National Monument. It speaks to a certain symbol they have encountered.


Starman

Starman, Could you provide a link for Mr. George Boundey's discovery at Casa Grande?

 

[Azquester]

Bill,

Speaking to your thoughts on Travis and the maps........I could warm up to your theory IF there was any evidence Travis tried to get folks to buy into his maps and ideas. There isn't any, that didn't happen. Travis was VERY secretive. In his active days in the mountains he trusted NO ONE outside his immediate family and came to not trust some of them...ie. Robert.

When the manuscript is released you are going to find that Travis summarily dismissed "locals" Robert tried to bring into the search. It was a bone of contention between Robert and Travis. Clarence Mitchell tried to get close to Travis and failed. Mitchell came to know Travis was a loner and was not going to share any significant details of the maps or his findings with him (Mitchell). Much to Mitchell's disappointment.

Robert is a different story and does not come off very favorable (in my opinion).

You are going to find there was only one outside person Travis had any comfort level with (outside the family) and that was in the final stages of Travis life. Travis died before that plan could be put into action. With that person, it was Travis' money that was at stake and the younger person's body labor. Doesn't sound like a con artist to me. Sounds like someone who genuinely believed in what they were doing and was ready to put up the money to see it done.

Lynda

You present a good argument Lynda. I have to agree on most of your points. If that's true he may have thought his Maps lead somewhere in the Superstition's and the Maps even though copied / faked were made from some sort of real Treasure Map. If that's a fact and he was that secretive why would he purposely leave out some symbols? Oh, I get it! He wanted someone to find the spot where only he had the final symbols for the Treasure! Now that makes sense! Leave out enough of the final map so only you have the Key. Let others search for the end trail and when one of them finds it you say it's not the spot. Then you come back later using the final solution's in your complete Treasure Map that no one else has ever seen!

But if that's true why not trust the locals?

Because maybe the locals might know those symbols or may have seen them at the final location in the stone maps from other Thunting sources? Not using local's with knowledge of the terrain may be the answer here. He wanted people that were not too savvy about area or Treasure signs / symbols.

Trust no one. It's sort of like using many contractors to build your underground vault so only small parts of the project are given to each worker.

Piece meal.

Could the family be sitting on Travis's final (Solution) symbols waiting for us to show them the site once this has been released for TV?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AD,you posted ----- A question is why this LDM has never been found if it is real ? have people noticed that all the treasure legends in the list have never been found

Yer wrong, for example I have found Tayopa, an even more obscure legend.--