bigticket
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- Nov 9, 2005
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If dowsers are chasing after their sure-fire treasures, there will be more treasure for the rest of us! 
Why does everyone hate dowsers so much?
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bigticket
Full Member
- Nov 9, 2005
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Oops. I was in a hurrry when I posted, and what I really meant was, "What does everyone have against dowsers." I meant that there is no point in complaining about dowsers, because, as I wrote, if dowsers are chasing after their sure-fire treasures, there will be more treasure for the rest of us.
Hopefully everything is clear now.
In any case, I hope that you got the gist of my original post.
Hopefully everything is clear now.
In any case, I hope that you got the gist of my original post.
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bigticket
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Apparently, my original post is still not understood. I was making a JOKE about not complaining about dowsers. If dowsers spend their time dowsing, there will be more treasure for those of us who use REAL treasure hunting methods. However, Karl Miller has a very good point. If someone goes dowsing, he is not harming anyone else, but if he tries to sell someone a long range locator, that person will be out a lot of money. In fact, those who sell dowsing rods often do so for extremely high prices, and dowsing ends up on a par with the long range locator con.
JakePhelps
Silver Member
I dont think they actually dislike the person, more the concept is hard to believe 
That's true Jake. it is the concept that some people can't take, maybe because they haven't learned it yet or just plainly ignored it due to the facts that no tangible result of experimentation has been done or published according to the stablished methodolgy we are practicing at present.
The logics involve in dowsing are well mixed up that a clear cut definition of it can not be accepted due to different opinions by different dowsers, but my reasons still stands... That dowsing is working based on scientific principles. And as I understand, things that are happening in this world have reasons why it was so.
Not because we can't comprehend how it works, doesn't mean to say it is not true.
I will give an example of a metal that resemble a biological muscle: NITINOL - for those who haven't encountered this metal yet, this is seem absurd, since biological muscle expand and contract based on impulse given by memory. This metal has the characteristics to remember or to have memory to return to its former state based on environmental condition/temperature.
My question is -- (before anybody check it out) Does my statement about NITINOL is true or not?
Angel
The logics involve in dowsing are well mixed up that a clear cut definition of it can not be accepted due to different opinions by different dowsers, but my reasons still stands... That dowsing is working based on scientific principles. And as I understand, things that are happening in this world have reasons why it was so.
Not because we can't comprehend how it works, doesn't mean to say it is not true.
I will give an example of a metal that resemble a biological muscle: NITINOL - for those who haven't encountered this metal yet, this is seem absurd, since biological muscle expand and contract based on impulse given by memory. This metal has the characteristics to remember or to have memory to return to its former state based on environmental condition/temperature.
My question is -- (before anybody check it out) Does my statement about NITINOL is true or not?
Angel
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bigticket
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Your example of nitinol shows how ridiculous dowsing is. When heated, nitinol contracts. This might seem mysterious, just as a metal detector beeping when passed over metal might seem mysterious. However, dowsing, ("detecting" something by pointing a rod at it), makes about as much sense as saying that you can make nitinol contract by pointing a rod at it.
DOWSING IS SO POPULAR BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE TO THINK THAT THEY CAN DO "MAGICAL" THINGS.
Most treasure hunters (if they believe in dowsing) would rather find something by dowsing than with a metal detector, because metal detecting is not "magical."
DOWSING IS SO POPULAR BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE TO THINK THAT THEY CAN DO "MAGICAL" THINGS.
Most treasure hunters (if they believe in dowsing) would rather find something by dowsing than with a metal detector, because metal detecting is not "magical."
"The logics involve in dowsing are well mixed up that a clear cut definition of it can not be accepted due to different opinions by different dowsers, but my reasons still stands... That dowsing is working based on scientific principles. And as I understand, things that are happening in this world have reasons why it was so.
Not because we can't comprehend how it works, doesn't mean to say it is not true."
The example about NITINOL does not pertains about dowsing, but an analogy about the comprehension of human mind for things it can not understand.
"Most treasure hunters (if they believe in dowsing) would rather find something by dowsing than with a metal detector, because metal detecting is not "magical."
Who says the other way around?....If one T. Hunter finds something using dowsing, it is because it is done scientifically...not magically...
Angel
Not because we can't comprehend how it works, doesn't mean to say it is not true."
The example about NITINOL does not pertains about dowsing, but an analogy about the comprehension of human mind for things it can not understand.
"Most treasure hunters (if they believe in dowsing) would rather find something by dowsing than with a metal detector, because metal detecting is not "magical."
Who says the other way around?....If one T. Hunter finds something using dowsing, it is because it is done scientifically...not magically...
Angel
T
tallpaul
Guest
the concept of dowsing is very hard to believe, when i was younger, i saw a guy doing this with what i would say were deffinately two wire coat hangers he was arround 50 tears in age and going all over the field,, i asked him what he was doing he said he was a layman or something like that and it was called dowsing,, i asked him had he found anything,, he hadent, he dident have much to show at all for all the years he'd done this,, i wondered to myself why do this if you dont find,, uuuummmm,, strange, i really dont want to get into any argument on this topic,, i dont hate dowsers, even the guy back then was friendley and polite, what people are more or less saying is they hate the thought of dowsing to useing a detector, a detector finds the goods,, i wonder how many gold and silver coins have been found by dowsing.
An Analogy:
When the wizard of Menlo park boast about a steady, non flickering light during his time, his contemporary said, " the concept of it is hard to believe". Although he promised it within six months, using different materials with trial and error method, he was able to produce the first light bulb that light for a few minutes. He did not stop and listen to his detractors, and while he still does not understand the principles involved about light bulb, he continue experimenting using different materials including human hair.
And Alas, What do we have now? from the very basic light bulb, it evolves to different types and kind; and was able to define how it works, functions and improve. if he follows and listen to all the skeptics who do not have the perseverance, guts, and understanding on what he is doing, we will still be using the Arc lamp today....
Angel
When the wizard of Menlo park boast about a steady, non flickering light during his time, his contemporary said, " the concept of it is hard to believe". Although he promised it within six months, using different materials with trial and error method, he was able to produce the first light bulb that light for a few minutes. He did not stop and listen to his detractors, and while he still does not understand the principles involved about light bulb, he continue experimenting using different materials including human hair.
And Alas, What do we have now? from the very basic light bulb, it evolves to different types and kind; and was able to define how it works, functions and improve. if he follows and listen to all the skeptics who do not have the perseverance, guts, and understanding on what he is doing, we will still be using the Arc lamp today....
Angel
T
tallpaul
Guest
well said karl,, exactly my thoughts too,, anyone who thinks dowsing or believes dowsing to work must also believe in magic, and we all know magic is a psychological trick, ie the hand being quicker than the eye, we see the magic and know its a trick, yet some people see it as pure magic, this is the problem with dowsers they are led to believe it truely works thus being sucked in and taken advantage of,, guess what i contacted a dowser through a friens of mine and offerd the challenge of a detecting session, to be accurate within 1 square yard this being plenty of space for him,, he declined i wonder why,. i have my finds to show for my detecting as well as other good detectorists, everybody to there own in one respect,.
"All technology, which is based on REAL and SOUND physics principles, can be refined, broadened and developed as time permits."
When Thomas alva Edison used human hair and other materials except tungsten, did he do it based on REAl and SOUND physics principles? Making almost a year (after promising within six months to produce non flickering light)to discover the correct material based on hunch and trial and error? And making his contemporary dances with glee and sarcasm while he is doing it? That it is not possible based on their mind set at that particular time? And when he has proven that it is possible, the physicist, engineers started to formulate theorem based on the findings of these "unlearned" people. Did'nt we know that most of the first basic equipment we have now at present were discovered by accident? and not by REAL and SOUND physics principles? That most of the physic principles were started to emerged because of this "pseudo-science" experimentation?
The question is:
Why we are afraid to explore the possiblity of dowsing?
By the way, I agree with you guys, that selling unproven apparatus/contraption without any unproven functions is a crime...Please don't get me wrong... That is why I always insist that it must be tested and proven scientifically...
Angel
When Thomas alva Edison used human hair and other materials except tungsten, did he do it based on REAl and SOUND physics principles? Making almost a year (after promising within six months to produce non flickering light)to discover the correct material based on hunch and trial and error? And making his contemporary dances with glee and sarcasm while he is doing it? That it is not possible based on their mind set at that particular time? And when he has proven that it is possible, the physicist, engineers started to formulate theorem based on the findings of these "unlearned" people. Did'nt we know that most of the first basic equipment we have now at present were discovered by accident? and not by REAL and SOUND physics principles? That most of the physic principles were started to emerged because of this "pseudo-science" experimentation?
The question is:
Why we are afraid to explore the possiblity of dowsing?
By the way, I agree with you guys, that selling unproven apparatus/contraption without any unproven functions is a crime...Please don't get me wrong... That is why I always insist that it must be tested and proven scientifically...
Angel
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bigticket
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Edison invented the carbon filament light bulb.? He did not try tungsten, because it was not yet known how to bend tungsten into the correct shape.? As you pointed out, he tried many different materials.? These numbered in the thousands.? In fact, he simply tried everything that he could think of.? It does not matter which physics principles he considered, because those principles were true whether he knew about them or not.? And so, your point about discoveries being made by accident has nothing to do with dowsing, because whether or not something is discovered by accident, the principles which govern its operation remain the same.? The important thing is that if it works, it can be seen that it works.
WE DO NOT SEE THAT DOWSING WORKS.
If someone told you that a metal detector MIGHT be able to get you within a yard of a coin, would you say that it worked?
Show SWR the money!
WE DO NOT SEE THAT DOWSING WORKS.
If someone told you that a metal detector MIGHT be able to get you within a yard of a coin, would you say that it worked?
Show SWR the money!
"The important thing is that if it works, it can be seen that it works.WE DO NOT SEE THAT DOWSING WORKS. "
"If someone told you that a metal detector MIGHT be able to get you within a yard of a coin, would you say that it worked?"
I believe in metal detector and I know how it operates. But if the metal detector gives off sound and meters indicate movement, it doesn't mean what you intend to be found is what your detector is telling. Latest detector tell us what kind of materials or denomination it has detected, but unless we dig it and seen by our own eyes what it is, then that is the only time we can say what is really is; either a pull tab or a gold coin. Metal detector was made not by purpose but by accident during the late 40's, when they are aligning an AM radio where an interference is produce when the primary and secondary coil of antennae comes near to a metal.
I also believe in dowsing and I know how it works and how to use and operates. But this tool is not the same as what is being sold or advertised as what we all know. When you say that "WE DO NOT SEE THAT DOWSING WORKS" it is true, since you do not see how it works, but it does not mean it will not work. Can I prove it? Do I have to prove it? The important thing is - it works for me, and I have no intention of commercializing it since it gives me more profit by using it than selling for a few hundred bucks. Why I don't want to show it? It is what we called "TRADE SECRET"...
In due time, this will work electronically using the principles I have describe before....The word DOWSING must not be confined to its old reputation...
Angel
"If someone told you that a metal detector MIGHT be able to get you within a yard of a coin, would you say that it worked?"
I believe in metal detector and I know how it operates. But if the metal detector gives off sound and meters indicate movement, it doesn't mean what you intend to be found is what your detector is telling. Latest detector tell us what kind of materials or denomination it has detected, but unless we dig it and seen by our own eyes what it is, then that is the only time we can say what is really is; either a pull tab or a gold coin. Metal detector was made not by purpose but by accident during the late 40's, when they are aligning an AM radio where an interference is produce when the primary and secondary coil of antennae comes near to a metal.
I also believe in dowsing and I know how it works and how to use and operates. But this tool is not the same as what is being sold or advertised as what we all know. When you say that "WE DO NOT SEE THAT DOWSING WORKS" it is true, since you do not see how it works, but it does not mean it will not work. Can I prove it? Do I have to prove it? The important thing is - it works for me, and I have no intention of commercializing it since it gives me more profit by using it than selling for a few hundred bucks. Why I don't want to show it? It is what we called "TRADE SECRET"...
In due time, this will work electronically using the principles I have describe before....The word DOWSING must not be confined to its old reputation...
Angel
"Dowsing always "appears" to work ---until it is subjected to controlled and monitored testing procedures. Then, it produces results completely on a par with Chance Guessing. This is a fact that has been proven many times over."
Controlled and monitored testing procedures can't be applied to dowsing unless there are accepted principles about it. Once this principles are established, parameters can be laid out and standards can be used as a barometer for this equipment. But at present, there are no accepted principles, because the very people who want to test it are waiting results from it, where it will serve as their basis to formulate theories to coin with its performance. In my opinion, unless this dowsing tool is merged with electronics, ( i mean true electronics-not that contraption that decieves people) then a standard can be set in testing its performance.... In due time....
Angel
Controlled and monitored testing procedures can't be applied to dowsing unless there are accepted principles about it. Once this principles are established, parameters can be laid out and standards can be used as a barometer for this equipment. But at present, there are no accepted principles, because the very people who want to test it are waiting results from it, where it will serve as their basis to formulate theories to coin with its performance. In my opinion, unless this dowsing tool is merged with electronics, ( i mean true electronics-not that contraption that decieves people) then a standard can be set in testing its performance.... In due time....
Angel
[/b]"Sorry if the scientific findings over the past decades do not fit your agenda"[/b]
I've read this statement before the invention of television. When 1 person said that if voice can be transmitted through the air, why not image? Then his contemporary said "you are dreaming and crazy".
[/b]"If it walks like a Duck, and quacks like a Duck?it sure as heck as a fowl. [/b]".
Angel
I've read this statement before the invention of television. When 1 person said that if voice can be transmitted through the air, why not image? Then his contemporary said "you are dreaming and crazy".
[/b]"If it walks like a Duck, and quacks like a Duck?it sure as heck as a fowl. [/b]".
Angel
ClonedSIM
Silver Member
I think the real issue here is consistency. I don't claim to be a dowsing expert, but I've watched and read a lot about it between various publications and postings here and other web sites, and I do have to agree that there seems to be a lack of consistent findings by the dowsers. A swallow does not a summer make, and few and far-between finds does not a treasure-finding tool make. I use a metal detector with success on every outing. This, I think, is why the field of dowsing has so many critics. And this may be the whole point of dowsing, not finding something every time the rods are used, but large finds here and there. It could be that we detectorists want to be able to dig something everytime we fire our machines up, and this is where the skepticism comes from. I don't know. But I can say that if a tool does not work every time you use it, should you not search for a better tool? And the whole comparison between the light bulb and dowsing rods seems to be a pretty far-fetched analogy. When Edison was searching for his light-making material, he was developing a concept that was completely new and untried, and this did take many experiments. Now that the bulb has been invented and the first hurdle has been overcome, any changes made to its design stand to improve the product, not reinvent it. How has the field of dowsing changed, really? At it's root, it is the exact same concept as when the device was first developed. New and different materials may be used with different rods, but it's the SAME concept. You can use titanium rods instead of a cherry tree branch, but does that change the way you use it? But back to the basic difference between dowsing and detecting, becasue those are really the only two entities involved here. If someone attempts to put down the field of detecting when I'm out in a park swinging away, I can brush those insults off with ease becasue I know I'm going to walk away with a pocketful of change and a few other goodies. Why can't dowsers do the same? You can take exception to the fact that some people are critics of dowsing, but let's disprove those people in the field, which is the only place it really matters anyway.
ClonedSIM
Silver Member
Spot on, Art! And hey, I just saw the pics of your silver cache and the nugget necklace and the gold-bearing quartz you found. Sweet! 
It's good to have an open mind about th'ing. You have no idea what will work sometimes, and if some folks want to stick with one device and others want to try their hand at many possiblities, more power to them. I know I really want to try gold panning and diving. But you do have to be thick-skinned about our hobby sometimes. Whether it's a detectorist mocking a dowser, or a non th'er mocking the whole hobby, you just have to remember you're out there doing it for yourself, and no one else.
It's good to have an open mind about th'ing. You have no idea what will work sometimes, and if some folks want to stick with one device and others want to try their hand at many possiblities, more power to them. I know I really want to try gold panning and diving. But you do have to be thick-skinned about our hobby sometimes. Whether it's a detectorist mocking a dowser, or a non th'er mocking the whole hobby, you just have to remember you're out there doing it for yourself, and no one else.
ClonedSIM
Silver Member
SWR said:
You know, I don't want to be one of the people mocking others, but I have seen some folks make comments like that. I asked one poster, I forget who, why he said that he has much better luck while dowsing on sunny days, but I haven't gotten a response yet. Why would it make a difference, is my question. All I know is, sunny or overcast, hot or cold, my detector always works. Again, not having a go at dowsers, just curious why this guy thinks he gets better performance on a sunny day.
"Why can't controlled and monitored testing procedures be applied to dowsing; they can to every other form of physical science! "
"We are told by many here that dowsing has "physical" aspects and is accomplished not by mental gymnastics, but instead by pure physics and real scientific axioms. That being the case --we darn well better be able to apply standard testing procedures; UNLESS OF COURSE IT IS NOT RELATED TO REAL SCIENCE.
And, even if it is not related in any way to real physical science; what is being claimed should still be testable.
Exactly what do you mean, it has no accepted principles? Could you clarify that statement?"
The type of test we are putting about dowsing, is to get a dowser and let him find what he predicts or what we want him to find, not to believe him, but to negate him and the method of dowsing. But did anybody tried in good faith to determine how it really works? Since dowsing instruments can be classified as an electroscope in some respect, does anybody tried a test using electronics test instruments to measure the intensity of electron movement from the human body, to dowsing tools and its correlation from one another? The established mutual relation from one another? I have read some who have done it but was regarded as pseudo-scientist...If we will return back the question, how and what procedures can we suggest to prove that dowsing really works?
About accepted principles, dowsers of different types has given and formulated principles about their methods of using dowsing, but has anybody seriously tried to prove or disprove it through scientific means?...Point by point? In weeding out false claims? So that we may be able to know how it really works? They made their hypotheses and postulated it without giving benefit of the doubt whether the claim of a dowser is true or not.
Angel
"We are told by many here that dowsing has "physical" aspects and is accomplished not by mental gymnastics, but instead by pure physics and real scientific axioms. That being the case --we darn well better be able to apply standard testing procedures; UNLESS OF COURSE IT IS NOT RELATED TO REAL SCIENCE.
And, even if it is not related in any way to real physical science; what is being claimed should still be testable.
Exactly what do you mean, it has no accepted principles? Could you clarify that statement?"
The type of test we are putting about dowsing, is to get a dowser and let him find what he predicts or what we want him to find, not to believe him, but to negate him and the method of dowsing. But did anybody tried in good faith to determine how it really works? Since dowsing instruments can be classified as an electroscope in some respect, does anybody tried a test using electronics test instruments to measure the intensity of electron movement from the human body, to dowsing tools and its correlation from one another? The established mutual relation from one another? I have read some who have done it but was regarded as pseudo-scientist...If we will return back the question, how and what procedures can we suggest to prove that dowsing really works?
About accepted principles, dowsers of different types has given and formulated principles about their methods of using dowsing, but has anybody seriously tried to prove or disprove it through scientific means?...Point by point? In weeding out false claims? So that we may be able to know how it really works? They made their hypotheses and postulated it without giving benefit of the doubt whether the claim of a dowser is true or not.
Angel
DirtyDon
Jr. Member
FOR NON-BELIEVERS: I would like everyone, especially doubters, make one dowsing rod out of a coat hanger, or whatever metal you choose. Cut it to about 20 inches in length. Bend about 4 inches of it at a right angle. Use this short end as a handle. Hold the handle in your hand with the long end on top of your hand. Don't hold tightly but hold it about your eyes height. Now, think of the direction North and ask the rod to indicate North. Or South, or West, or East. If you do it right, the rod will swing to that direction.... When dowsing, you must have communications with the rods, or what ever device you are using. Before dowsing you must first ask the rods 3 questions. "SHOULD I, CAN I, MAY I"? If you get a "NO" response, don't go further with your search. As stated previously by other contributors, you have to work with the rods in order to find out the YES and NO response indicated by them. You should talk to your rods as you would to a person, asking simple requests. I have asked my rods, on occasions, for help in locating an area that might produce some coins. So far, I have had some luck. Metal detecting is not my life and neither is dowsing, butI like to combine the two on occasions. If your request to the rods is for gerat wealth, you won't get a true answer. Don't be geedy. Dowsing might be controversial, but it's fun and enjoyable. If some one HATES me for my feelings and thoughts, I'm sorry.
