Why Some People Find Few Old DEEP Coins

[Michigan Badger]

Here's something I just posted at another site in answer to a Tesoro Cortes owners problem with so many pops and crackles while hunting in discrimination. Maybe this will help somebody here because the basic principle holds true with all brands (Fisher, Whites, Minelab, Nautilus, Garrett, etc.).

Please add your suggestions also 8)

Here's my post:

Nearly all metal detectors crackle and pop while hunting in discrimination mode (some more than others). The discrimination doesn't always eliminate all signals; it will sometimes just deteriorate the unwanted signals more so they're easier to identify as unwanted targets.

Discrimination can be good or bad. It can be great for shallower targets (down to about 4 or 5 inches) but bad for the really deep stuff.

The deeper the target gets, the more its signal deteriorates simply because of ground mineralization. Therefore one could think a deep corroded Indian cent is really a discriminated item (follow me?).

This is one reason why some people find very few old coins and relics.

The answer is to use the machine a lot and study it. It's best to start with low discrimination and dig almost all targets at first. Then as you learn the TID readings (patterns) and sounds you can turn the discrimination up.

Hope this helps.

 

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[Michigan Badger]

Badger...great advice!! I have a White's Prism III (LOVE IT!!) and I usually will first go over an area a couple times on the factory settings, then once I;ve done this and removed alot of the trash from the area, I will REALLY cover the area from all angles with the discrimination almost shut off completely and the sensitivity kicked up to the highest setting. This seems to work well for me and as you stated, seems to be when I find the deepest and oldest of my coins and jewelry. Every detector is different, even the same models, and other factors figure in as well..ground conditions, time of year (heavy frost the past winter for example) and also a big factor that is easily and often overlooked...battery strength...don;t always wait for the low battery indicator to come on before putting in new batteries or charging. Try a choice area where you;ve had success with some coins and then hit it again with brand new or fully re-charged batteries. There are all kinds of tips and techniques, the best way is to pick a way that works best for you and then use it and enjoy... Also NEVER forget the two KEY factors...PATIENCE and PERSISTENCE !!!!!!
Good luck and HH to all....
MD

Excellent post Mainedigger!

I agree totally with what you wrote about detectors in general.

I opened a large can of worms on here a few months back when I started a thread on batteries. We kind of ended in good spirits but only after some of us joked around a bit.

Personally, I'll stay with alkaline batteries. I'm not a fan of recharagbles. I've tried the recharagbles and could tell within a short time that my machines lost depth. The reason being....well, just let me place a quote here to explain what I mean.

“The detectors operate on standard 9 volt transistor batteries, available in most stores. We recommend the alkaline batteries for the performance and life. The detector has a built in charging jack for use with our optional charging system. Some "9 volt" chargeable batteries are actually 7.2 volts. We recommend the higher voltage for best operation.”

The above quote is from a major Nautilus detector dealer in regard to the IIB. Note that he wrote "We recommend the alkaline batteries for the performance and life."

I used to own a Minelab Excalibur that came with a rechargeable battery. Just before I decided to sell it I discovered that they also make an alkaline battery holder power source for this unit. If I were to use that machine on land today I'd definitely purchase the alkaline pack. I'd dare guess it would increase performance and maybe even depth.

But, most today only have saving money on their minds. In the long run, I'd guess the rechargables do save some money over alkalines. But for me that's no concern because on a trip I can spend $50 for gas and $25 for meals/refreshments. I figure another $5 worth of batteries (if I buy top brands) for 15 hours of maximum depth hunting is totally acceptable.

I'd sure hate to think I may have missed out on a gold $1 coin simply because I was worried about battery cost.

To each his own I guess.

 

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[Michigan Badger]

Thank you MB. This is the type of post I enjoy the most. More finds are left in the ground do to the human running the detector than the short commings of the machine. Being new, and a frugal New Englander, I started with my Bounty Hunter Tracker IV. Good little machine even with its $130 limitations. Well its paid for itself and I will upgrade sooner or later but not untill its limitations become far greater than mine. I really enjoy your posts. chris

Great post! Thanks!

 

[Michigan Badger]

Thanks Burdie and deacon! 8)

Badger

 

[Born2Dtect]

BADGER,

Don,t get hung up on voltage. All detectors use a voltage regulator that probably provides +5VDC to the electronics. The regulators will operate at about +6.5 VDC. Manufacturers give enough of a cushion in voltage so they will operate off of Alkalines or rechargeables. By the way the rechargeable that comes with most explorers is a 1700 Mah unit, "AA" batteries of up to 3500 Mah and should double the detecting time. NOTE: Because of the voltage regulator the detector should operate fine then just turn off or not work at all. The idea of operating differently is false. Little or no difference should occur as a modern detectors batteries drain.

 

[Mainedigger]

Badger....I am not up to date on the pro's and cons of re-chargeable batteries and the "science" of today's detectors on voltage etc., will leave that argument and discussion to others. Myself, like you, my personal preference is the alkaline batteries and keeping them new....I also cringe at the thought of passing over that first gold coin (or any coin for that matter)..because I was worried about battery cost and I was pushing it on old weak batteries. It's hard enough to find a good productive site and I want to put the odds in my favor of finding all I can from that site as I possibly can and taking care of all I have control over of doing so. There are enough "uncontrollables" in this hobby without not paying attention to the things we do have control over....any way, that is my two cents worth....but perfect I am not and I have been wrong before and certainly will be wrong again...

 

[Michigan Badger]

Badger....I am not up to date on the pro's and cons of re-chargeable batteries and the "science" of today's detectors on voltage etc., will leave that argument and discussion to others. Myself, like you, my personal preference is the alkaline batteries and keeping them new....I also cringe at the thought of passing over that first gold coin (or any coin for that matter)..because I was worried about battery cost and I was pushing it on old weak batteries. It's hard enough to find a good productive site and I want to put the odds in my favor of finding all I can from that site as I possibly can and taking care of all I have control over of doing so. There are enough "uncontrollables" in this hobby without not paying attention to the things we do have control over....any way, that is my two cents worth....but perfect I am not and I have been wrong before and certainly will be wrong again...

No, in this case you're right because you agree with me

Oh boy!

Badger

 

[Michigan Badger]

BADGER,

Don,t get hung up on voltage. All detectors use a voltage regulator that probably provides +5VDC to the electronics. The regulators will operate at about +6.5 VDC. Manufacturers give enough of a cushion in voltage so they will operate off of Alkalines or rechargeables. By the way the rechargeable that comes with most explorers is a 1700 Mah unit, "AA" batteries of up to 3500 Mah and should double the detecting time. NOTE: Because of the voltage regulator the detector should operate fine then just turn off or not work at all. The idea of operating differently is false. Little or no difference should occur as a modern detectors batteries drain.

Thanks ecdonovan.

By-the-way, how you been doing lately? Finding any goodies? Maybe not much time to hunt?

It snowed like crazy here today The wife is loving it. She goes around singing "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.."

Take care buddy and post those goodies. Us cabin bound guys need to see these things.

Badger

 

[Rusted_Iron]

The effect of new batteries vs. old batteries on the depth of a metal detector can depend a great deal on what kind of voltage regulators, and generally what kind of circuit, is used. Some voltage regulators waste a lot of power. Some require a considerable input overvoltage to get a steady output voltage at however many volts the detector runs on.

Not all voltage regulators handle current the same way, either. Some have the same input and output current but have more of a voltage drop. Others will have different input and output currents but will have less of a voltage drop. This can make a big difference in how a metal detector behaves with a given set of batteries; I'm sure there is some variation in design and / or component selection between the different models and brands.

Alkaline battery discharge is a non-linear phenomenon, which also complicates the picture.

I don't know the specifics of circuit design for each detector, but I've found that the Minelab Explorer runs about the same all the way down to where the batteries are ready to quit. The Explorer also does just fine with rechargeables. The Tesoro Tejon, on the other hand, seems to have a noticeable difference between fresh batteries and ones that are running down. Put in a freshly-charged set of rechargeables and the battery test will only give you 3 beeps, maybe 4 if you're lucky (out of 7 or 8 which you'd get with fresh alkalines). The manual says to change the batteries when they get down to 2 beeps, so that doesn't give much room. I stick to fresh Energizers or Duracells when I use the Tejon. I use the rechargeables in the Minelab.

Even among the various models of the same make there will be difference. Battery charge seems to have more effect on the depth performance of my Tejon than it does on my Tiger Shark.

EDIT: I might add, for those who aren't aware, that even with all the IC's and digital circuits in modern metal detectors, the voltage regulation aspect of the circuitry is still going to be analog, and thus it will not behave in a strictly all-or-none fashion. There are analog approximations that get fairly close, and for example the Minelab behaves as if its power were all-or-none up to the point that the batteries are exhausted. True digital power regulation, however, is not something you're going to encounter in a handheld consumer device.

 

[Mainedigger]

Rusted...thanks for that, alot of it was chinese to me but I get the gist of it. All I know is that the detectors work...the why's and how's of it I will pretty much leave to the "techies", however posts like this and the responses are priceless....for they generate input from ALOT of people with different degrees of knowledge and the information in these posts are great learning tools to help each of us improve our techniques and how we go about our detecting. I for one am always willing to listen to new ideas and input from others if it even remotely increases my knowledge, for I feel any added insight greatly improves my hunting skills and in this area, none of us can be too knowledgeable or too skilled not to being able to learn even more from others knowledge and/or experience. I will use any edge or added technique I can to help me find that first elusive gold coin... I also agree with an earlier post on here that states most misses are "operator error" and not the detectors fault. Granted, some detectors will operate at different levels due to alot of factors, however, I feel most missed coins or relics are just that....MISSED and not not picked up by the detector...there are exception to every rule of course, but nothing is more valuable than patience and persistence. I hope this post continues, for I enjoy reading everyone's input and ideas, and feel I am never too old to learn... All the knowledge I can arm myself with increases my odds of good finds... Even with the best of detectors, we all are still basically "looking for a needle in a haystack", which makes it all the more rewarding when we find things... The best and most expensive detector won;t make you a better hunter, only YOU can do that.
HH!!!!

 

[randall61]

my fisher has a silent mode its a 1236x2 takes out the pops and clicks also has a frequency switch
that can zone out about 60% of interferance from powerlines also other detectors close by.


its been invaluable in trashy areas.

 

[Blackjack77]

Lots of good info here!! Thanks!
I noticed a difference between My Discovery 3300
and Garrett 2500. The 3300, would act erractic when the
batteries were down, even before the manual said they should!
Changing them always improved performance.
Now My Garrett , works fine even to 1 bar, the manual says
to change them at that level. The MD was still working fine.
More money equate to better performance?? Maybe, it
certainly would eqate to more circuit testing for for Dollars
spent. R&D costs,etc. Hey the manufacturers have to make money
to stay in business!!
The issue of voltage regulation really is hazy-- different ICs' reqire different
acceptable operating voltages. Linear,cmos, Qmos,Memory(Flash) and other
input voltage tolerances vary .Multiple regulation vs good enough regulation might
account for Battery life.
If the Owners manual states specific types of Batteries- -I would use that
type!!
Just some thoughts-- what a great hobby!!
complicated enough to be challenging ,yet simple enough so anybody
can do it!!!
HH

 

[Rusted_Iron]

The issue of voltage regulation really is hazy-- different ICs' reqire different
acceptable operating voltages. Linear,cmos, Qmos,Memory(Flash) and other
input voltage tolerances vary .Multiple regulation vs good enough regulation might
account for Battery life.
If the Owners manual states specific types of Batteries- -I would use that
type!!

Definitely.

On some detectors they may use a particular voltage regulator not because it's cheaper but because it just behaves well with the rest of the circuitry and with the desired performance (then again, like you said, they have to consider the cost of production so they can stay in business).

Let's consider a mostly analog detector (in other words, knobs and all) running at a single frequency. Let's say it's the flagship model for that manufacturer- their "hottest" one, squeezing everything possible out of the design. They might have chosen the vregs they did just because they allowed tuning the circuitry to its hottest performance level, even though the compromise might have been loss of depth when the batteries started to run out (due to lack of sufficient overvoltage at the input to get the max. output). I don't know, since I don't have a schematic handy for these machines (and probably never will since it's probably a trade secret ). Definitely a possibility though.

It doesn't hurt that whatever they did allows them to retail this deep-seeking unit for $699 instead of the $999 or $1299 their competitors charge

Like Badger and other posters have said, the best detector for you is what's working for you and what you like using. There's nothing wrong or abnormal about digging a lot of junk when you're going for the signals at the edge of detection depth. That "iffy" deep signal could be a bent nail, but it could be a Barber dime. Or it could be a Barber dime hidden among bent nails

For me there is a lot of sport involved in hunting coins, especially ones deeper than 6 inches. If a detector came out that just looked into the ground and gave a video image of everything there, that would take away a lot of the challenge and the fun, at least for me. It would devalue experience and persistence, two of the desirable characteristics of this hobby.

That might explain why I so enjoy using analog, one-tone detectors for those deep coins

 

[pgill]

Badger this is a great post.... I am only now starting to use discrimination on my detector. I have always used the all metal mode. The biggest lesson I have learnt when using discrimination mode is to slow down. I think just maybe I was moving around a bit fast.
Last week, I searched two small front yards.... I searched them slowly and in discrimination and found some pretty good stuff. I work the yard as though I am mowing the lawn (and to think I hate gardening) going across and then back again each time moving 1 lane across. But the secret was slow dowwwwwn.

God bless
Peter

 

[Michigan Badger]

Mainedigger, another great comment.

Rusted_Iron, thanks for that in-depth comment. We need more of this sort of thing.

randall61, thanks for that comment about the 1236x2.

Blackjack77, thanks for your comments: “If the Owners manual states specific types of Batteries- -I would use that
type!!”

Rusted_Iron, always great comments: “the best detector for you is what's working for you and what you like using.”

pgill, thanks Peter for your comments as well. I too learned the slow hunting method many years ago but sometimes I forget. I’ve found that when I hunt too fast I mostly find large items and not many old coins.

Badger

 

[pgill]

Hey Badger,

Went to the mining village near me today and believe it or not found the most coins ever I found a 1x10c, 2x2c and 6x1c pieces, funny added to exactly 20c umm not make me a millionaire, but hey I am getting there This was with using the descrimination to cut out wire and small steel, and working slowly..... It works.

God bless
Peter

 

[Rusted_Iron]

As a general rule, the less junk you're willing to dig, the fewer old, deep coins you will find. Conversely, if you dig a lot of junk, you may have streaks where you hit coins too. Every signal that sounds smooth, repeatable, but faint has a better chance of turning out to be a deep coin than does a signal that is either very loud or extremely broken. But the faint, broken ones have a much better chance of being a deep coin than the loud, broken ones.

Besides, you should get all the loud, broken ones out of the way. Today I dug a 20-lb chunk of rusted iron. No idea what it's for. Some kind of weight perhaps. Anyway, guess what was directly on top of it in the soil... a 1920's wheat penny. No consumer metal detector in the world could have separated those targets.

Another thing.... Some days you can have all the skill in the world, and your digs will still all be rusty nails, balled-up bits of foil, etc.

Today a lot of my deep signals turned out to be coins. Many others were nails, but I came home with some great finds nonetheless. Yesterday only two of the "good" sounding signals were coins, and that was after unmasking one of them by digging big rusty nails out of the way first. The rest of the "good" signals over the course of several hours were junk!

Never underestimate the power of luck. Pure luck without skill, though, will not find you deep coins. You need both skill (knowing your detector) and luck (putting your coil on the right square inch of ground where there's an old coin buried). Maybe I should put it this way... since luck averages out in the long run, at least for most of us, what you really need is skill and persistence.

You will have those days where an inexperienced buddy comes over to your favorite spot and has an incredible streak with a detector that he borrowed from you. Don't let it shake your confidence (I speak from experience when I say it's tough ). Your inexperienced buddy may have just enough skill that his luck will pay off. But he isn't psychic, and in the long run he will learn what you've learned, which is that a person can't magically find deep coins every time and at every site.

When you go back to the site the next day and the next day... and the next day... and find coins in areas that both your buddy and you have searched before, you'll see what I mean.

I wrote a post on another site about the Tortoise and the Hare of Metal Detecting. One of the forum members said maybe I should be more like the Hare. But the truth is, for finding deep coins consistently, you have to be like the Tortoise. You can't rush through a site and expect you're going to vacuum-clean out all the deep coins like magic. Every detector has limitations. Even the Minelab Explorer with its tone ID cannot identify targets with 100% accuracy. You will miss some coins. You will dig some nails. You will come back another day and wonder how you could have passed over a target. (Was it even there yesterday? It had to be!)

 

[Michigan Badger]

As a general rule, the less junk you're willing to dig, the fewer old, deep coins you will find. Conversely, if you dig a lot of junk, you may have streaks where you hit coins too. Every signal that sounds smooth, repeatable, but faint has a better chance of turning out to be a deep coin than does a signal that is either very loud or extremely broken. But the faint, broken ones have a much better chance of being a deep coin than the loud, broken ones.

Besides, you should get all the loud, broken ones out of the way. Today I dug a 20-lb chunk of rusted iron. No idea what it's for. Some kind of weight perhaps. Anyway, guess what was directly on top of it in the soil... a 1920's wheat penny. No consumer metal detector in the world could have separated those targets.

Another thing.... Some days you can have all the skill in the world, and your digs will still all be rusty nails, balled-up bits of foil, etc.

Today a lot of my deep signals turned out to be coins. Many others were nails, but I came home with some great finds nonetheless. Yesterday only two of the "good" sounding signals were coins, and that was after unmasking one of them by digging big rusty nails out of the way first. The rest of the "good" signals over the course of several hours were junk!

Never underestimate the power of luck. Pure luck without skill, though, will not find you deep coins. You need both skill (knowing your detector) and luck (putting your coil on the right square inch of ground where there's an old coin buried). Maybe I should put it this way... since luck averages out in the long run, at least for most of us, what you really need is skill and persistence.

You will have those days where an inexperienced buddy comes over to your favorite spot and has an incredible streak with a detector that he borrowed from you. Don't let it shake your confidence (I speak from experience when I say it's tough ). Your inexperienced buddy may have just enough skill that his luck will pay off. But he isn't psychic, and in the long run he will learn what you've learned, which is that a person can't magically find deep coins every time and at every site.

When you go back to the site the next day and the next day... and the next day... and find coins in areas that both your buddy and you have searched before, you'll see what I mean.

I wrote a post on another site about the Tortoise and the Hare of Metal Detecting. One of the forum members said maybe I should be more like the Hare. But the truth is, for finding deep coins consistently, you have to be like the Tortoise. You can't rush through a site and expect you're going to vacuum-clean out all the deep coins like magic. Every detector has limitations. Even the Minelab Explorer with its tone ID cannot identify targets with 100% accuracy. You will miss some coins. You will dig some nails. You will come back another day and wonder how you could have passed over a target. (Was it even there yesterday? It had to be!)

It sure isn't hard to tell when someone posting here is really into this hobby. You nailed everything right on.

One thing with me is I'm primarily a relic hunter so I'm mostly looking for medium sized iron objects. My ears are tuned to those loud but smoother signals. The type of signals that still sound-off if I raise the Nautilus coil 15 inches off the ground.

However, I also like finding really old coins. The problem with the way I hunt is I'm not into a coin finding frame of mind. Like you wrote, deep or on edge old coins have that tight (small) weak signal. If I raise that coil even 2 inches I'm already starting to lose the signal. These signals can sometimes break-up but when they're deep coins usually (not always) they hold pretty solid (at least with the Nautilus).

But again, since I'm mostly after relics, I hunt very remote sites free of pulltabs and foil. I tend to hunt too fast because my targets are louder and larger. With my Nautilus IIB I can hold my coil 15 inches off the ground (over the tall grass) and still get a loud signal on an axe head down 6 inches (most relics are shallow). Hunting relics requires covering a lot of ground so I move right along.

Usually when I hit a good old coin streak it's because I happened to hit on a coin in shorter grass and this causes me to slow way down and work that area at turtle speed. I push the coil down through the grass and listen for those small solid signals. But after awhile I'm back out there moving along too fast again with the coil way too high. I don't find many coins again until I just happen to dig another coin and then the slow hunt cycle starts over again.

Hunting parks and house yards is a whole different situation from hunting remote sites. In old yards you almost have to dig everything because most of the best finds are more than likely masked by trash. I've found silver dimes while digging big chunks of tin, etc. Lots of old coins lay under a level of rust formed by cans that long ago rusted away. Many old coins got into yards by mistake when they were burned and then buried along with old clothes and trash. Whenever I'm hunting an old yard and start finding clothes buttons and/or a concentration of rusted cans and broken bottles, I get all excited.

 

[Postalrevnant]

Absolutely Great post All!!! Some great tips here for me to work at. Some of this I was just beginning to learn. But I thought perhaps I was confused and just wasting time.

I do have one important thing that i would love to have some of you experienced detectors help explain to me.

Sensitivity.

Now that I have a detector capable of getting into the 5" - ? range Fisher CZ-6A I plan to do some solid coinshooting. I have heard the many great tips and plan to start doing much more digging and less descrimination until I start to get a feel for what this detector is telling me.

But Sensitivity is an issue that I am wondering about. Some peps tell me crank up the sensitivity max to get depth. Other's say nope keep the sensitivity low for depth, they say max or higher sensitivity will mask those deeper targets.

Can some of you please share you sensitivity experiences with me. Especially as it were to pertain to coinshooting and looking for those deeper coins.

I do go over smaller areas slower already. But generally I was running sensitivity 3 out of 10 possible. And I was listening for something that showed coin range and sounded both ways at 90 angles before I dug. Occasionally I hear this real faint clink clink sound that sounds like coin sound from the detectors normal sound and I can go over that spot quiet a few times and it will repeat then go away for a while then repeat again. After I make my plug many times I no longer hear that sound, but I can still get a metal mode sound.

Should I be continuing to dig up that signal to see what it really was? If I read this post correctly I should be. Because you guys are saying that deteriorated coin sounds and trash masking could be hiding that good ole silver coin, IH, wheatie etc.. from me.

Thank you in advance for your experiences on sensitivity pertaining to deeper coinshooting.

Postalrevnant

 

[bk]

Postalrrevant,
I also use a CZ6A. The type of signals that you describe sound to me like you are either at your depth capability, or you are picking up a nail. You need to dig a few of those signals. Most will be nails, but once in a while you may find a deep coin.
In the area I live, most of the ground conditions are very neutral. I always run my sensitivity at max. If I start to detect too many nails, I have lowered the sensitivity, but it doesn't seem to make any difference. From what I have experienced, not much depth is lost by lowering the sensitivity on this particular detector.
I also thought using a 10" coil would reduce the amount of "nail" signals because of the larger coil. It didn't make any difference. Usually a larger coil will detect larger objects easier and tend to ignore the smaller ones. Not on this machine though.
I've been using this detector for more than 15 year and still discover new things about it.

HH.

 

[EDDE]

side note to post
i find that with my coil(mileage my very)DD 5x10
if i get a signal thats a suspected nail
i will walk around the target in a circle first
it will be solid but iffy one way(standind at its north or south pole so to speak)
but when i stand at its east to west it drops to gi gi gi(null) gi gi at best(as apposed to gi beep gi beep beep gi ,when i first heard it)
also i noticed that at times when i pinpoint it
it will jump around
move around when it does this i drop my dics to iron check the area for iron and if none
then I'm not pinpointing surrounding material
by the way old square nails and those damn u shaped fencing nail will sound like a deep iffy target
we all dig them them now and then so dont loose sleep over it
pay your dues and dig a few 100 and you'll learn 8)