16-18th century Spanish manuscripts

[vulcan007]

Who can clearly read 16-18th century Spanish manuscripts? I mean with 99% accuracy not just casually!

 

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[itmaiden]

That will cost you some bucks. Not even easy for Spanish persons if you are talking about the Archives of the Indies. You could advertise or look for a college professor somewhere.
But most of the information you would need is probably already out here somewhere. Just takes some effort.

itmaiden

Who can clearly read 16-18th century Spanish manuscripts? I mean with 99% accuracy not just casually!

 

[signumops]

You might give Bobadilla a shout. He's here regularly and digs through the Archives in Santo Domingo where he lives.

 

[Salvor6]

Chagy can read them too.

 

[itmaiden]

Wow, well I personally admire anyone who reads them well. I was looking at some this last week from various writers and while maybe they would be easier to read in person, I found them quite challenging. I am usually pretty good with various handwriting, but the script was very ornamental. Where is Chagy from ? Maybe those in the Carribean/South America areas have had more exposure to old Spanish considering the historical relationship ?

I would so love to be able to read that stuff. There is so much I want to look up besides the 1715 and Treasure Ships. Maybe these guys should give classes in it ?

itmaiden

Chagy can read them too.

 

[Alexandre]

Spanish hand writing from the 16th onwards is easy; you should try the early 16th century Portuguese ones...

I once started to build a paleography blog, getting documents together with their transcriptions - the easier way to learn the "how to do it" - but then I ran out of free time...

http://paleografiafcsh.blogspot.com/



Here's an example of a 1589 Spanish document, the pilot and the master of the Royal ship Esperanza giving an account of the sailing of the silver fleet from the New World to Spain, and narrating shipwrecks and battles:

AGI, Contratación 2449, San Lucar de Barrameda, 22 de Novembro de 1589.

Relacion que Damos Nos, Luis Ortega, piloto y Alonso Perez, capitan del navio nombrado/
La Esperanza qu es de su Majestad, y ha entrado en el puerto de Sanlucar oy miércoles/
22 noviembre 1589 Anos que llevo por Almiranta [sic] el General Juan de oriue/

En 11 de septiembre Salimos de la Hauana. 32 nauios/
Los nueue com plata que son los Siguientes/

La capitana de Nueva España/
La capitana de juan de Uribe Apallua/
La nao de Pedro Allo que Uiene por Almiranta/
La francesa donde venia pedro ssanchez escudero/
La Nao de Juan Baptista espindola/
La nao de gaspar de Maya/
La nao de Alonso martin Marquez/
La nao de Diego de Narea la pequena/

Desembocamos en 5 dias y en 31 grados y médio/
despues de desembocados nos dio ocho dias de/
brisas naturales donde el segundo dia de la brisa/
se aparto Una nao de la florida y una galizabra/
y en 23 de septiembre la nao de malaça La/
dexamos en la mar Abierta por la proa, este/
dia se perdieron de nuestra compania cuatro naos que eran/
el Almiranta y La saluadora y el frances y Una/
fregata de la florida.

A primero de octubre despacho el General/
Um nauio de Aviso para castilla./
A 2 de del dicho como A las dez Uimos en la/
Un Humo com bonanca de la mar y/
Uiento y el general nos Jmbió a nosotros y/
a los demas pataches y llegamos a el/
como A las 10 de la noche y Uimos que era//

Una nao grande e dimos cuatro O cinco buel/
tas A la redonda por el ver se hallauamos/
alguna gente en la Madera y hallamos los/
Arboles y Uelas y no hallamos Ninguna persona/
y nos dixo Un patache que no pasasemos/
adelante que auia Uisto Un farol y que/
Entendia que eran naos de Inglaterra y/
Otro día siguiente hablamos Con Un patache/
y nos ensenó poleas y motones por las quaes/
Entendió que era el françes de la plata A 5/
dias de dicho mes Uimos quatro Uelas/
Al norte de nosotros y el general Alvaro Flores/
embió a Uer que naos eran y como a puestas/
del sol conoscimos que eran las que se auian/
apartado y Tomando platica dellas/
nos dixeron que el frances se auia Abierto por/
abaxo y que no le podian Tomar el agua/
y assi se determinaron a sacarle la plata y bastimientos/
y todo lo que del se pudieron aprovechar/
y luego le pegaron fuego.

A 16 de el mes A media noche nos dio Un tiempo/
el Uiento en el Oeste que nos hizo correr con/
el papa figo del trinquete y nos Hizo apar/
tar del Armada y por no correr con el navio/
echamos un cable por la popa hasta otro dia/
y assi se huBieron las diligencias posibles para jun/
tarnos con la Armada corriendo Por Buena Altura/
Por 39 y 40 grados y dos tercios Uenimos/
a Uer el Cueruo Uispera de todos sanctos//

Nosotros y otro navio de nuestra Compania/
que Hallamos sin Arbol mayor y entre san/
Jorge y la graciosa hallamos Un navio in/
gles y anduuo A las bueltas para juntar/
se Con nosotros y no pudo y assi entramos/
En la Tercera donde Hallamos 15/
naos de la flota de nueva España que no osaban/
Salir por miedo de siete naos Jnglesas/
que les estauan guardando la Jsla y en ellas/
andaua por general el conde de Cumberland. destas/
naos auian peleado 4 dellas a Uista/
de la Tercera con Una nao y Un patache/
que no se sabe que nao; era y otro navio/
Jngles peleo, con francisco granillo tres dias/
y Como una legua de la Terçera Le dió Un/
balazo A la lumbre del Agua y se fue/
a fondo y se Ahogaron del dicho navio 60 Personas/
y escapo a nado el dicho granillo con 16 personas/
Tomo este Jngles la nao de Inigo de lurriaga/
Hicieron Uarar en el faial Un nauio/
de Santo domingo y otro de Pedro de Oleguis/
de Honduras/

Las naos que se desampararon en la mar

La catalina de fernando home
La Maria de Cadiz
Dos naos de Fernando Cauallero
La nao de Campeche, capitana de Honduras//

De la Ciudad De Angla en las/
Tercereas partimos con otro nauio, en Domingo 5/
De noviembre Presente la buelta de España en companhia de/
15 naos que estauan en aquele puerto de las [sic] De la/
flota de nueva España de que Uenia por/
capitan Gentil Uasilio y por Almirante Rodrigo/
madera y Uenimos la buelta del Cabo/
de san Vicente Hasta ponerse en altura de 36/
grados y medio. Todas las dichas 16 naos juntas/
y llegaron sobre el dicho cabo de san Vicente Sabado/
18 de noviembre presente y aquella noche Como A las/
10 oras oyeron 3 o 4 preças de Artillaria/
cerca dellos y el domingo siguiente al Ama/
necer ReConocieron 3 nauios Jngleses los/
dos de 500 toneladas y el otro de 250/
y habia [en] el Cabo otros dos nauios que en/
tendieron ser de Jngleses que Remolcandolos/
con lanchas porque habia calma. Y se jun/
taron la nao capitana Jnglesa y la Almiranta
de Rodrigo madera y en espacio de Una ampole/
ta Tiró la Jnglesa a la Almiranta de que/
dera 83 pieças de Artilharia por la Vanda/
de Vabor hast desapareseca el Trinquete/
y a Viendolo hecho dexo aquella nao como/
Rendida y despuestas las otras naos donde/
La dicha nao Jnglesa y la otra de 250 toneladas//

Las leuaua A las demas naos de Jndias AnteCogidas y A cañoneándolas/
y assi teniendo por cierto y por sin dubda/ que tomaron dellas 5 o 6 naos/
porquelas Uieron Amaynadas que es senal/
de estar Rendidas y el nauio destes/
deClarantes dio todas las Uelas y lle/
go al cabo de Santa Maria y de alli Vino a este puerto/
donde entro oy miércoles 22 de noviembre 1589/
y que esta es la Verdad para el Juramento/
que Hubieron y lo firmaron | luis d ortega/ Alonso Perez//

 

[Salvor6]

Alexandre, is that the fleet of Alvaro Flores? Luis Ortega was the pilot of the Esperanza.

 

[Salvor6]

Here is a page from La Maria, 1589, Contratacion 4192.

 

[mariner]

Happy New Year, everybody,

Conact Pawel in Poland. Not only can he read old Spanish manuscripts, he can alter them to read whatever you might want them to say!!

Seriously, there are two separate aspects to this, speaking Spanish, and reading old and individual of writing, including abbreviations.
Most of the examples we have seen put up on this thread have been pretty legible: there are many that are not.

In addition to those recommended, "Vox Veritas" would be pretty expert at all aspects of old Spanish manuscripts.

Mariner

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning my fellow exploiters, what about my friend
Claudio Bonifacio?

I positively hate the bleed through manuscripts, while looking Jealously at the beautiful handwriting, mine looks as if it had come from a hen coop floor paper.

Do Jose de La Mancha

 

[mariner]

One other problem is that many of these old manuscripts are written not in standard Spanish, but in Castillian.

By chance, my attorney studied 16th century Castillian while at University, and he translates many of the manuscripts I need for my studies of Cortes-related research. He enjoys it, and as I enjoy doing the same thing with old English and Latin manuscripts, I know how he feels.

Good luck.

Mariner

 

[Alexandre]

Alexandre, is that the fleet of Alvaro Flores? Luis Ortega was the pilot of the Esperanza.

That it is. And that's a letter signed by Luis Ortega.

 

[Alexandre]

Most of the examples we have seen put up on this thread have been pretty legible: there are many that are not.

What about this one?

1510, Lisboa, Janeiro, 01, Recibo de João Álvares, almoxarife de Guiné e Índias do caravelão São João, com os aparelhos neste declarados, que recebeu de Gonçalo Fernandes, mestre e piloto do mesmo.

Lisboa, A.N.T.T., Corpo Cronológico, Parte II, maço. 20, doc. n.º 70

[fl.1]

conheceo e confessou Jan alvarez almoxarife da cassa/

dos almazeens de guinee e indeas que recebeo de gonçalo fernandez/

mestre e pilloto do caravellam sam joam que andaua no/

castello e trrato d argim o dicto caravellam por/

seer ja velho que o mandou ca frrancisco d almada capytam/

do dicto castello pera lhe mandarem outrro o quall/

caravellam o almoxarife della rrecebeo com estes aparelhos que/

se sseguem a saber

o masto com ssua vergua grande e com/

quatrro costeiras por bamda e quatrro brroseos a saber dous/

deles com betas d esparto e dous palanquinetes e ssua/

ostagua e seu estay e dous amantilhos e seu enxertareo/

e huma driça d esparto e o masto do trraquete com ssua/

vergua e com duas costeiras por banda e dous broseos com/

betas d esparto velhas e ssua ostagua e huma driça/

d esparto e sseu estay e hum goroupez quebrado e/

e duas bolinas e dous amantilhos e o masto/

da contrra e vergua e seu botalo com duas costeiras por/

bamda e dous prrodaãos e huma bonba e huma /

barca delle e trres remos e duas ancoras e huma /

guindaressa e dous estreens e duas ezcotas a saber huma/

he d esparto e duas bolinas grandes e sua trrosa/

e huma ostaga da mezena com sua polee e dous quetes/

e hum enxertareo do trraquete e hum quadernall e/

ciinquo pollees e dous papafigos velhos do masto/

grrande com trres monetas e outrro papa [fl.1v.]

 

[mariner]

Alexandre,

Yes, that's more typical, in my experience. Well done for getting most of it right.

Mariner

 

[Sorroque]

Who can clearly read 16-18th century Spanish manuscripts? I mean with 99% accuracy not just casually!

Contact Tony Almeida of Walmart Palm Bay.
That as in, Viceroy Francesco Almeida the Portuguese Navigator Explorer 1502.
because he speaks, most likely reads and writes ROYAL Portugease.


I worked with Tony for 5 years.

 

[Alexandre]

Anyone can read this. That is not the hardest part.

The tricky part is how and where you find the RIGHT stuff to read...

 

[Sorroque]

Anyone can read this. That is not the hardest part.

The tricky part is how and where you find the RIGHT stuff to read...

Obrigado.
I went to school in Portugal 1973. I lived in Cascais' .

Wouldn't what you be looking for be in Barcelona?

 

[Alexandre]

The tricky part is how and where you find the RIGHT stuff to read...

Obrigado.
I went to school in Portugal 1973. I lived in Cascais' .

Wouldn't what you be looking for be in Barcelona?

[/quote]

Hey, I was born in Estoril, Cascais!

Anyhow, Barcelona does not strike me as having good archives...

 

[vulcan007]

Alexandre,

Can you read early Spanish manuscripts from the 1500s? There is a big difference between late and early 16th century. The second document you posted is Portuguese.

I would like to know who are the best Spanish paleographists today. I have heard that there may be only a handful. As Mariner, wisely stated it is not just understanding Spanish, but you must be familiar with old Spanish vocabulary, old handwriting, and be able to decipher the countless abbreviations used in the 1500s.

V

 

[Vox veritas]

Vulcan,
I can read and transcribe documents of the 1500. Are many?
Cheers VV