1652 Massachusetts Pine Tree Shilling- Post Grading/ Conservation

[Silvermonkey]

As promised , here is a follow up post regarding the Pine Tree Shilling I found back on 5/5/26. I sent the coin off to NGC back on 5/18 for grading and conservation. I also requested their "Variety-Plus" service in hopes of getting an expert opinion about the specific Noe/ Crosby/Salmon designation. I got the coin back this afternoon, along with the submission form.

This is my first time using any grading service, so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect. I am surprised that the coin did not receive a numeric grade, but rather "V F Details, Cleaned". I'm assuming that the label "cleaned" sharply decreases the coin's value. Is that correct? If so, that's pretty frustrating given that the only cleaning I did was to rinse it off in distilled water. Does "cleaned" refer to the NGC conservation process? Does anyone know what that actually entails? I was also disappointed that they could not offer a more specific variety designation other than "1652 Small Pine Tree 1S Massachusetts". Was I asking too much for more detailed variety information? Please let me know what you think.

I'm very happy to have the coin back in my possession, and I think it looks great. I completely appreciate what a rare and remarkable detecting find this Pine Tree shilling represents. I'm just not sure if I would choose to go through such a grading process again. If you think I was asking too much from NGC, I would love to hear your opinion, and your own past grading experiences. I'll give them a call on Monday to ask them directly for some feedback on the questions I mentioned above. Thanks to everyone for your many positive comments. Cheers!

 

[jewelerguy]

I googled "what is the NGC conservation process" and based on what the AI overview returned, I would assume the designation of "cleaned" refers to their process. I would also imagine that having that designation printed on your coin case would also detract from the collector value, although I wouldn't know how much. Unless you're planning on selling it I suppose it wouldn't matter.

 

[Knight_of_Excalibur_II]

As promised , here is a follow up post regarding the Pine Tree Shilling I found back on 5/5/26. I sent the coin off to NGC back on 5/18 for grading and conservation. I also requested their "Variety-Plus" service in hopes of getting an expert opinion about the specific Noe/ Crosby/Salmon designation. I got the coin back this afternoon, along with the submission form.

View attachment 2256056
View attachment 2256057

This is my first time using any grading service, so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect. I am surprised that the coin did not receive a numeric grade, but rather "V F Details, Cleaned". I'm assuming that the label "cleaned" sharply decreases the coin's value. Is that correct? If so, that's pretty frustrating given that the only cleaning I did was to rinse it off in distilled water. Does "cleaned" refer to the NGC conservation process? Does anyone know what that actually entails? I was also disappointed that they could not offer a more specific variety designation other than "1652 Small Pine Tree 1S Massachusetts". Was I asking too much for more detailed variety information? Please let me know what you think.

I'm very happy to have the coin back in my possession, and I think it looks great. I completely appreciate what a rare and remarkable detecting find this Pine Tree shilling represents. I'm just not sure if I would choose to go through such a grading process again. If you think I was asking too much from NGC, I would love to hear your opinion, and your own past grading experiences. I'll give them a call on Monday to ask them directly for some feedback on the questions I mentioned above. Thanks to everyone for your many positive comments. Cheers!

Not an expert, but for very old hammered and cob coins, I doubt "cleaned" makes much of a difference in collector value. Many Spanish Reales that are salvaged from shipwrecks are cleaned and still maintain their value. Given the nature and sheer rarity of this coin, it probably wouldn't be too big of a difference, but take my opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[oldmxrat]

It looks fantastic!
I would think if a collector was looking for a specimen that had that level of details and had not been cleaned, there probably wouldn't be many to choose from at any price.

 

[Jose The Goon]

It looks fantastic!
I would think if a collector was looking for a specimen that had that level of details and had not been cleaned, there probably wouldn't be many to choose from at any price.

Agree 100%. Who the hell are these people that claim to be experts on grading coins and can make a distinction as to what's cleaned and what's not cleaned & why it should make a difference.
When I started collecting coins & buying them through mail order, there were 9 grades. Poor, Fair,
Good, Very Good, Fine, Very Fine, Extremely Fine, Uncirculated & Proof. Now there's all these increments in between. Who oversees the coin grading services to make sure they aren't cheating? Is there some kind of World Coin Grading Police? How does anyone know that they don't buy a coin that they graded MS60, Re-slab it, and sell it as an MS65 or MS65B ? Yes. that would be unethical, but who's watching?
I'll never forget that when " The Saddle Ridge Hoard " was found in 2013 in Northern California, a principle official from PCGS was on a national cable news show, all giddy saying; "We were up all night cleaning these coins that our fingers were bleeding" (paraphrase) WHAT !! I thought you weren't supposed to clean coins
I wasn't the only one that saw this. PCGS was taken to task about this "slip of the tongue" by one of their principle executives. Then, a few months later, "like magic", PCGS started a coin cleaning service or "restoration service". So, it's okay now, as long a they are the ones that do it for you for a fee. What B.S.
"Silvermonkey" made a fantastic rare find. A beautiful piece of Colonial History. If He wanted to sell at a certain price, and the potential buyer didn't want to pay that price because NGC said it was cleaned, and Silvermonkey told the buyer that it was found in the ground and rinsed off with distilled water by himself, and the buyer was still trying to chisel him down, all Silvermonkey should say is; "Well, I suggest you should go out and find one in the ground yourself, and don't rinse it off with any water. Just leave it all caked up with mud & shit. Or, you could buy one for a small fortune from NGC or PCGS that "THEY CLAIM" hasn't been cleaned."
Great find "Silvermonkey", and thanks for sharing & updating for us all. CHEERS !!

 

[l.cutler]

The cleaned designation is not from their conservation, it's from their examination of the coins surface. Dug silver coins very often get this designation because the hairline scratches from movement in the dirt over the years resembles the rub marks from improper cleaning. The grading services only recognize certain varieties, and I don't know if NGC gets into the NOE varieties or just large planchet and small planchet.

 

[ToddsPoint]

“Is there some kind of World Coin Grading police?”

Well yes, sort of. See the green sticker on this PCGS slab? The slab was sent to CAC after it left PCGS. They give it a closer look and will put the green sticker on coins they think live up to the grade PCGS gives them. While CAC is not perfect either, another set of eyes on it doesn’t hurt.

 

[E-Trac-Ohio]

Your Pine Tree Shilling sure looks great !
Well insured or not - like you said - it had to be nerve racking experience sending it off in the mail !

 

[Detecting Fool]

As promised , here is a follow up post regarding the Pine Tree Shilling I found back on 5/5/26. I sent the coin off to NGC back on 5/18 for grading and conservation. I also requested their "Variety-Plus" service in hopes of getting an expert opinion about the specific Noe/ Crosby/Salmon designation. I got the coin back this afternoon, along with the submission form.

View attachment 2256056
View attachment 2256057

This is my first time using any grading service, so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect. I am surprised that the coin did not receive a numeric grade, but rather "V F Details, Cleaned". I'm assuming that the label "cleaned" sharply decreases the coin's value. Is that correct? If so, that's pretty frustrating given that the only cleaning I did was to rinse it off in distilled water. Does "cleaned" refer to the NGC conservation process? Does anyone know what that actually entails? I was also disappointed that they could not offer a more specific variety designation other than "1652 Small Pine Tree 1S Massachusetts". Was I asking too much for more detailed variety information? Please let me know what you think.

I'm very happy to have the coin back in my possession, and I think it looks great. I completely appreciate what a rare and remarkable detecting find this Pine Tree shilling represents. I'm just not sure if I would choose to go through such a grading process again. If you think I was asking too much from NGC, I would love to hear your opinion, and your own past grading experiences. I'll give them a call on Monday to ask them directly for some feedback on the questions I mentioned above. Thanks to everyone for your many positive comments. Cheers!

Cleaned mean exactly that. The coin has been cleaned. From NGC glosary page:

Coins that are in any altered condition will never receive a numerical value. Had you not cleaned the coin, then the grading would have been "environmental damage"

Anthony

 

[sprailroad]

Years ago I sent in a 1860 Seated Liberty quarter S mint mark, (only 54,000 minted) to PCGS. It was returned with "Genuine". No grade, just a code # which came out as "cleaned".

 

[l.cutler]

I just checked NGC variety plus where they list what coin varieties they will attribute. There are no pine tree coins listed or actually any colonial coins at all.

 

[unclemac]

I like to buy them certified, so I know they are genuine, (high end stuff), but I crack them open so I can display them as I choose. Also...the grading changes over the years, so older stuff is out of date and new stuff will be some day.

 

[Trezurehunter]

Nice looking coin, and a great find !

 

[ARC]

The cleaned designation is not from their conservation, it's from their examination of the coins surface. Dug silver coins very often get this designation because the hairline scratches from movement in the dirt over the years resembles the rub marks from improper cleaning. The grading services only recognize certain varieties, and I don't know if NGC gets into the NOE varieties or just large planchet and small planchet.

Agreed.

 

[ARC]

Sorry about the response time to p-msg...

Why NGC Assigns This Designation
Grading services look for unnatural brightness, hairlines, or chemical film to identify damaged surfaces. The designation covers several specific methods:

• Improperly Cleaned: The presence of fine hairlines caused by mechanical abrasion, such as rubbing with a cloth, scouring pads, or erasers.
• Polished/Wiped/Brushed: Using tools or abrasive pastes to give a coin a shiny, unnatural appearance.
• Chemical Dipping: Stripping away the coin’s natural toning or patina using harsh chemicals.

How It Works: Details Grading
If a coin is authenticated but flagged as Cleaned, NGC assigns a Details grade. Instead of a number (like MS 65), it will carry an adjectival grade representing the coin's wear (e.g., "AU Details" for About Uncirculated) accompanied by the "Cleaned" label.

Impact on Value
Collectors greatly prefer original, untouched surfaces. Consequently, a "Cleaned" designation decreases a coin's market value—typically resulting in a discount of 30% to 50% or more compared to a straight-graded equivalent.

Conservation vs. Cleaning
There is an exception for professional maintenance:

• Cleaning (Impaired): Alters the surface permanently and scratches or removes metal.
• Conservation (Acceptable): Removes surface dirt or environmental contaminants safely without scratching the underlying metal or altering the luster. Numismatic Guaranty Company (NGC) utilizes an affiliate called Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS) for this professional work.

----------------------------
I always have stated to anyone posting any coin find to not even so much as wipe a coin off... ESPECIALLY with your fingers in the field when dirt is present.
There are ways to remove the crud in ways that will not impact the coin.

Now... with this said... and if coin was altered or not... either on purpose or by accident does not matter.
What matters is AUTHENTICATION>This is the most important part.
Unfortunately it received this designation... BUT.... it is legitimized at the same time.

Silver monkey...
Your coin IMO.... IS not only a top notch find but in STELLAR condition.

And IF... you ever go to sell that coin... don't take any guff from perspective buyers using that cleaned designation to get that coin for/at some way lower offer.
It is what it is... and it is a killer example of that coin... IT IS RARE... And even RARER in that condition and strike.
So...
Pay no attention to the NGC wizards behind the curtain at this point and tell them pay a great fair price or beat it.
FOR... IT IS... a rare coin. period.

Congrats on it all the way around FOR...AND... I commend you for the act of sending it in... you did the exact responsible SMART thing to do when one is faced with a historically significant find.

 

[Silvermonkey]

Sorry about the response time to p-msg...

Why NGC Assigns This Designation
Grading services look for unnatural brightness, hairlines, or chemical film to identify damaged surfaces. The designation covers several specific methods:

• Improperly Cleaned: The presence of fine hairlines caused by mechanical abrasion, such as rubbing with a cloth, scouring pads, or erasers.
• Polished/Wiped/Brushed: Using tools or abrasive pastes to give a coin a shiny, unnatural appearance.
• Chemical Dipping: Stripping away the coin’s natural toning or patina using harsh chemicals.

How It Works: Details Grading
If a coin is authenticated but flagged as Cleaned, NGC assigns a Details grade. Instead of a number (like MS 65), it will carry an adjectival grade representing the coin's wear (e.g., "AU Details" for About Uncirculated) accompanied by the "Cleaned" label.

Impact on Value
Collectors greatly prefer original, untouched surfaces. Consequently, a "Cleaned" designation decreases a coin's market value—typically resulting in a discount of 30% to 50% or more compared to a straight-graded equivalent.

Conservation vs. Cleaning
There is an exception for professional maintenance:

• Cleaning (Impaired): Alters the surface permanently and scratches or removes metal.
• Conservation (Acceptable): Removes surface dirt or environmental contaminants safely without scratching the underlying metal or altering the luster. Numismatic Guaranty Company (NGC) utilizes an affiliate called Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS) for this professional work.

----------------------------
I always have stated to anyone posting any coin find to not even so much as wipe a coin off... ESPECIALLY with your fingers in the field when dirt is present.
There are ways to remove the crud in ways that will not impact the coin.

Now... with this said... and if coin was altered or not... either on purpose or by accident does not matter.
What matters is AUTHENTICATION>This is the most important part.
Unfortunately it received this designation... BUT.... it is legitimized at the same time.

Silver monkey...
Your coin IMO.... IS not only a top notch find but in STELLAR condition.

And IF... you ever go to sell that coin... don't take any guff from perspective buyers using that cleaned designation to get that coin for/at some way lower offer.
It is what it is... and it is a killer example of that coin... IT IS RARE... And even RARER in that condition and strike.
So...
Pay no attention to the NGC wizards behind the curtain at this point and tell them pay a great fair price or beat it.
FOR... IT IS... a rare coin. period.

Congrats on it all the way around FOR...AND... I commend you for the act of sending it in... you did the exact responsible SMART thing to do when one is faced with a historically significant find.

Thank you very much ARC for your detailed feedback. Its quite helpful! Now that I managed to survive my first grading/ conservation experience, I plan to try it again with the 1662 Oak Tree two pence I found a few years back. I'll let you know how that process goes..

Again, thanks to everyone for your comments and encouragement. It is very, very appreciated! Cheers!

 

[ARC]

Thank you very much ARC for your detailed feedback. Its quite helpful! Now that I managed to survive my first grading/ conservation experience, I plan to try it again with the 1662 Oak Tree two pence I found a few years back. I'll let you know how that process goes..

Again, thanks to everyone for your comments and encouragement. It is very, very appreciated! Cheers!

Again... a wise choice for the Oak.

And i suggest to anyone reading this...
IF... you find any coin of these type / caliber...
that you send it in to either PCGS... NGC... ICG... ANACS... or CAC...
IF for nothing more / at the very least... FOR the authentication of said find.
Dont worry so much about the condition.
AND DONT CLEAN THEM... heh

IF it is something you dug... then rinse in very hot water and then GENTLY pat dry.. NOT RUB... just PAT.
Let air dry thoroughly and then place in a safe-flip that is PVC free.

 

[ARC]

Again... a wise choice for the Oak.

And i suggest to anyone reading this...
IF... you find any coin of these type / caliber...
that you send it in to either PCGS... NGC... ICG... ANACS... or CAC...
IF for nothing more / at the very least... FOR the authentication of said find.
Dont worry so much about the condition.
AND DONT CLEAN THEM... heh

IF it is something you dug... then rinse in very hot water and then GENTLY pat dry.. NOT RUB... just PAT.
Let air dry thoroughly and then place in a safe-flip that is PVC free.

PS...
The reason I harp about the whole correct handling and washing IS....
WHEN you find something like this coin... AND...
You have now become the custodian of said rare historical coin...
Then you have a duty to treat it with the utmost respect.
SO...
Act like it accordingly.
Heh.
In the end you will be glad you did anyway.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Great find and the effort preserving it. I mean no disrespect by this, but it’s too bad a professional service choose to slab it in a manner that conceals portions of the coin! Also thanks for taking the time to give an update.

 

[WHADIFIND]

Thank you very much ARC for your detailed feedback. Its quite helpful! Now that I managed to survive my first grading/ conservation experience, I plan to try it again with the 1662 Oak Tree two pence I found a few years back. I'll let you know how that process goes..

Again, thanks to everyone for your comments and encouragement. It is very, very appreciated! Cheers!

Wonderful coin!!!

Now, tell me how much it cost you to go thru all that? 😏