17.77 tons facts not smack

[Oroblanco]

Greetings amigos,

Peerless67 wrote:

Being from England, the average American has a distinct advantage over me when it comes to place names in the States.

I can empathize with you over the geographic names problems and living in the USA is only a slight advantage - because unless a person was native to a region and got to know the "old" and alternative names of various places it is extremely difficult to try to trace down some of them. For one example I was looking for a "Lions Cave" in Cochise county Arizona and had a real bugger of a time even finding anyone old enough that had ever heard the name, as there was NOTHING in any textual record or map that I could find. I did eventually find an old-timer who told me where the cave was and the truth about the name - he informed me that it was spelled "Lyons cave" not "Lions" and was named for a hunter who went after the big cats and made that cave his hunt camp for some time - NOT because the cave had a population of Cougars living in it. If you are looking for a "burro canyon" or "mule creek" or "buckhorn/antler" as a key to find a treasure or lost mine, you will have one h-e-c-k of a time as there are literally dozens or hundreds of places with these names. Another example is a tiny town near where I was raised, "Cameron's Corners" which was named for Cameron's store that was there for a century, but for the last fifty years it has been called and named on maps as "Lenox" even though there are already several "Lenoxvilles" "West Lenox" etc but all the old-timers still call it by the old name. Why on Earth the political powers decided to change the name is as un-fathomable as any mystery of the Universe, but we treasure-hunters have to deal with their map-making vagaries all the time. This problem of finding the actual locations of OLD and alternative geographic place-names is one of my "pet peeves" and one of the most frustrating aspects of treasure hunting research.

Anyway I very much empathize with you over the geographic names problem, as so many places have had their names changed over the years that common names of the 1700s-1800s are almost impossible to locate today. I am a little surprised that you don't have this problem to an even more pronounced degree in the UK, with a history that goes back literally thousands of years and the various different languages that were in common use (Anglo-saxon, Gaelic, Norman, Danish etc) I would think that place-names in the UK could be literally a maze of different names used over the centuries.

Please do go on with the discussion friends, this has been fascinating - and Peerless I hope that you will make the trip to go and dig up that gold, that is if the Feds have not already stolen it. Even if they did, perhaps they did not get it all and even a single gold bar would be a nice "treasure" to find. Good luck and good hunting mi amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

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A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[MesaBuddy]

Gary , if you ever get out to AZ , I'll meet you at Bear Creek
MB

 

[Peerless67]

I have removed the attachments, and will be removing the pasted newspaper articles tomorrow, so those who want them should take down the dates. I did this because of copyright.

 

[Old Dog]

Gary,

Outstanding job my Friend,
Your plan of attack was well thought out and execution was nicely done.
I enjoyed this thread very much

Thanks for sharing.
Thom

 

[BILL96]

Peerless,
This was such a fascinating thread, any updates.
Thanks,Bill

 

[BILL96]

I'll be waiting!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Mesa buddy: Where do I send the $ 5:00 dollars?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Peerless67]

Mesa buddy: Where do I send the $ 5:00 dollars?

Don Jose de La Mancha

You can send it to me RDT

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ohio Peerless: you posted --> You can send it to me RDT
~~~~~~~~~~

Nah peerless, your computer is clean, but Mesa's is crawling with cockroaches, he needs to fumigate it before we all are infested..


Incidentally why is everyone congratulating you for a bit of research? Now if it had been Gollum or ORO that did the report, I suppose that it would be in order. Since it is just a normal report by you, it is nothing different, just your usual standard

Don Jose de La Mancha


p.s. snickerr

 

[allenroyboy]

The first book that talks about the 17 ton gold is
1954 Penfield, Thomas (Chap) "The Greatest Treasure of them All" Buried Treasure in the US

Allen

 

[allenroyboy]

It has been claimed in the published 17 tons stories that the aircraft used to move the gold from Mexico in 1933 were the stearman bi-plane or the cesna. The stearman did not have a 1 and a half ton weight capacity and had a service ceiling of less than 15,000ft and the cesna was not much better and its unlikely that either plane would have flown/glided over the burial site of the gold at 25,000ft.
(link) http://www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com/tons.html

At no time in the flight would any plane need to go any higher than 10,000-12,000 feet in elevation. The typical stearman had a 120 hp engine. The reports claim that the plane had been modified as a crop duster with a 440 hp engine. This would affect the net weight that could be carried and it's ceiling. Other reports speak of a Ford Trimotor.

Also, it is apparent that treasure hunters interviewed relatives living near Farmington of the two Mexican guards, the pilot, and it is rumored that Trabuco's son lives in Farmington. I suspect there is much more information that is not published because the searchers choose to keep it to themselves.

Allen

 

[Peerless67]

The first book that talks about the 17 ton gold is
1954 Penfield, Thomas (Chap) "The Greatest Treasure of them All" Buried Treasure in the US

Allen

Yes a rehash of what was printed in the newspapers in 1952.

 

[Peerless67]

It has been claimed in the published 17 tons stories that the aircraft used to move the gold from Mexico in 1933 were the stearman bi-plane or the cesna. The stearman did not have a 1 and a half ton weight capacity and had a service ceiling of less than 15,000ft and the cesna was not much better and its unlikely that either plane would have flown/glided over the burial site of the gold at 25,000ft.
(link) http://www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com/tons.html

At no time in the flight would any plane need to go any higher than 10,000-12,000 feet in elevation. The typical stearman had a 120 hp engine. The reports claim that the plane had been modified as a crop duster with a 440 hp engine. This would affect the net weight that could be carried and it's ceiling.

Allen

At least 1 published story claims the cessna glided over the mesa at 25,000ft, another claims Trabuco traveled with Elliott in the plane and that the plane carried 1 and 1/2 tons of gold at a time.
Point me to where I can find a circa 1933 cessna or Stearman that can do those things.
A crop duster carried its hopper in the front cockpit of the plane where did Trabuco sit? was he a wing walker?

 

[allenroyboy]

At least 1 published story claims the cessna glided over the mesa at 25,000ft, another claims Trabuco traveled with Elliott in the plane and that the plane carried 1 and 1/2 tons of gold at a time.
Point me to where I can find a circa 1933 cessna or Stearman that can do those things.
A crop duster carried its hopper in the front cockpit of the plane where did Trabuco sit? was he a wing walker?

The highest mesa's in the 4 Corners area are 7000 to 8000 ft high. The highest mountains in the area may reach up to 12,000 feet. I don't remember reading anything about 25,000 ft in any of the stories I've read, and that would be most of them. It is likely a misprint or the author's flub up.

Bi-Wing crop dusters that I've seen carried the tanks in the body and/or underneath in a belly tank. Also, it is likely that all extraneous weight, such as tanks, would have been removed for such a special haul. The amount of money offered the pilot was a fortune during the depression.

Allen

 

[Peerless67]

At least 1 published story claims the cessna glided over the mesa at 25,000ft, another claims Trabuco traveled with Elliott in the plane and that the plane carried 1 and 1/2 tons of gold at a time.
Point me to where I can find a circa 1933 cessna or Stearman that can do those things.
A crop duster carried its hopper in the front cockpit of the plane where did Trabuco sit? was he a wing walker?

The highest mesa's in the 4 Corners area are 7000 to 8000 ft high. The highest mountains in the area may reach up to 12,000 feet. I don't remember reading anything about 25,000 ft in any of the stories I've read, and that would be most of them. It is likely a misprint or the author's flub up.

Bi-Wing crop dusters that I've seen carried the tanks in the body and/or underneath in a belly tank. Also, it is likely that all extraneous weight, such as tanks, would have been removed for such a special haul. The amount of money offered the pilot was a fortune during the depression.

Allen

Well most of them wouldnt be all of them. I normally would not post an article for an individual but il make an exception for you this one time. If you want the full article you can read it in New Mexico Treasure Tales.

 

[allenroyboy]

Could you tell me the route taken by the aircraft?, where it left from in Mexico?. Are you suggesting the plane never had to fly over the sierra madre?

It would not have been difficult to fly from most any spot in Northern Mexico into New Mexico without needing to go higher than 10000 to 12000 feet. I'm sure there are parts of the range that are higher than that, but it is not an impenetrable wall.
Allen

 

[allenroyboy]

I remember now about the single stunt the pilot did to spy on Trabuco.

The whole purpose of reaching a high altitude was to be far enough away that the men on the ground would not hear the engine being shut off. And high enough so that the plane could glide back down to 8000 or 9000 feet and be back over the landing field. And to be able to get far enough away afterwords so that they would not hear the engine start up again.

The plane was empty and with a souped up 440 hp engine (compared to the stock 120 hp) high altitudes such as 25,000 would not be impossible. The loaded plane obviously could not reach such an altitude. Further, the same stunt may have also been possible at a lower peak altitude and the 25,000 merely an exaggeration.

Allen

 

[gollum]

Guys,

Tell ya what I'm gonna do. I have said it before, and I'll say it again; the plane was a Ford Tri-Motor. The pilot's name was NOT Bill Elliott. An exhaustive search was done in every military archive for the name Bill Elliott, and there was nobody found. Nobody by that name shot down in ANY theater of operation in WWII. The gold WAS flown from Mexico in 1933 to a place in Northern New Mexico (not too awfully far from Farmington).

The facts above are indisputable. The picture at the bottom of this post is of the REAL PILOT! His name is not Bill Elliott. Do not ask me what his real name is (but don't worry, we know who he is).

The only thing we don't know with certainty is where the gold was hidden after it was removed from its' original hiding place in 1952.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

You guys are arguing about squabble.

There is no REAL argument about whether or not it exists, or what type of plane it was flown in, or the name of the pilot, or even where the original hiding place was.

....oh, and Trabucco's Son lived in Los Angeles. He was one of those redacted names on the Grand Jury Records. I don't think that his REAL name will ever be released.

The ONLY and I mean ONLY thing that matters is where the ranch caretaker removed the gold to in 1952. The caretaker died in the 1980s, without telling even his family where he hid the gold. THAT, my friends, is the problem at hand.

Best-Mike

 

[allenroyboy]

How did they find the pilot?