$2.6 Billion - 9 Tons of Gold

[The Beep Goes On]

Wish I found it...

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/55151.html

 

[Narked1]

I agree with Cornelius here,
Especially considering that the government of Spain claims that there was loss of life onboard the ships that have been discovered near to American shores as an excuse to make the ships in question "War Graves", and hence untouchable by salvors. This reeks of politics. However, Britain should be accorded the same right that Spain has exercised in the case concerning one of their ships found in American waters. If the ship in question sank during a "non-wartime" period, then privilege should be accorded in order to properly document the ship, crew, belongings, and cargo for historical purposes. If the ship sank during a wartime period, then it should be considered a War Grave, using the precendent that Spain has set in their argument concerning excavation of one of their ships found in American waters. Fair is fair.

 

[mariner]

The law does not have much to do with justice or fairness. The International convention on salvage protects government owned ships that are on purely non-commercial activity. The Sussex was carrying gold to bribe the Duke of Alba into siding with Britain against Spain on a particular matter, and sank en route. When Odyssey found the Sussex, the British government decided that it was better to take a 10% share of the gold than to have none of it, and Oddysey were smart enough not to reveal the location before securing the agreement. Whether Britain believed they believed they had the legal right to award salvage rights to Odyssey is probably a matter for conjecture. I guess that Spain believes the Sussex did not qualify for the protection given to Government ships on non-commercial activities, fanned no doubt by the traditional dispute about who owns (or should own) Gibralta.

In the case of the US and Spain, they signed a Treaty in 1902 under which they specifically agreed that ships of one nation wrecked in the other's water should enjoy a special protection that went beyond that offered by the International Convention on salvage. Spanish ships in US waters are exempt from salvage claims, and vice versa. This applies whether the ships were owned by the two Governments or by private individuals.

It is not a matter of justice, fairness or morality. Just the law. If you want to play the game, make sure you know the rules. Odyssey played by what they thought were the rules, as did SeaHunt in the case of Juno and LaGalga, but you have to keep your eye on all your competitors, as in most games, and sometimes it is difficult to know just who your competitors are.

Mariner

 

[grizzly bare]

mariner,
Thanks for clearing that up. I believed (as did the other posters) that Spain was trying to have it both ways: now I sort of understand what's going on. I really think that Odyssey should have the lion's share of any recovery since they seem to be doing all the work. If Spain or England hasn't made a recovery effort in years (ever?) they SHOULD have no rights...but the Law doesn't always make sense.
Treasurenet is THE place to get great information. You've just shown a lot of us that we need to study a little bit more,
Thanks
grizzly bare

 

[mariner]

GB,

I agree with your sentiments about Odyssey deserving the lion's share of the treasure, especially as they agreed a 90%-10% division with the British government, who owned the ship. I would be surprised if they do not end up getting what they agreed. I think Spain is just taking the opportunity to stick it to the Brits because of the dispute over who should own Gibralta, and Oddysey are stuck in the middle for now

Mariner

 

[jeff k]

After reading this thread, I noticed some mis-information that should be cleared up. First, only warships are protected from salvage, not private vessels. Private vessels are subject to owners & insurance claims, but the Courts usually award the salvors 90% of what's recovered. Odyssey signed an agreement with the British MOD to salvage the HMS Sussex for the following split. Odyssey gets 80% of the first $45 million recovered, between $45 and $500 million they split 50%-50%, and over $500 million the Brits get 60%. The Spanish govt. in Madrid gave Odyssey and the Brits permission to go ahead with the salvage, but the local govt. in Andalusia started causing problems, so Madrid asked them to stop working. Odyssey and the Brits agreed to do this until things can be worked out with the locals. Here's the clincher, the Sussex lies in International Waters off Gibraltar according to the 1962 UN Convention, so the Spanish locals have no legality. Odyssey/Brits are trying to be diplomatic and work with them, but if push comes to shove the Euro Courts would have to back Odyssey and the Brits. From what I hear, things will be worked out shortly, so it probably won't go to the Courts.

 

[mariner]

Jeff K,

Thanks for the additional information about the Sussex, correcting the proprtional shares that I had indicated in my earlier post. I think I got that info some time ago from UK newspaper article.

However, I want to correct your point about private ships all being subject to salvage claims, at least as far as US waters are concerned. Under the 1902 Treaty between Spain and the US, Spanish wrecks in US waters enjoy special protection whether they were Government owned or privately owned. This is spelt out in the treaty. In 2000, the Federal Court of Appeals ruled in the SeaHunt Inc. case that this treaty required a standard of specific abandonment before a Spanish wreck can be considered "abandoned", and that ships which have not been "abandoned" are not subject to salvage claims. Therefore Spanish wrecks in US waters that were privately owned are not subject to salvage claims, unless their original owner, or the rightful successors of the original owner, have specifically declared them to be abandoned.

A second issue is that warships are only protected from salvage under the International Convention when they are on non-commercial activities. (This is no longer true in US waters, as a result of the new law introduced in November 2004, which says that all Government owned wrecks in US waters are protected from salvage claims, no matter what their activity at the time of sinking) I think there might be a debate about whether the Sussex was on military duty while carrying the gold to the Duke of Alba, but that became a moot point anyway when Odyssey reached agreement with her owners, the British Government.

Mariner

 

[Gold_Needle]

The Spanish.... do they still have a Navy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Duh, I must be missing something here, but 9 tons of certified 1000 fine Au (Gold) = $140,400,000. standard ton or $154,400,000. Metric ton, depending upon which one the reporter was using., not necessarily the correct one.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Peg Leg]

I hate to bring this up one more time.
BUT let us say that you located a Spanish ship loaded with Aztec/Mayan ARTIFACTS. We all know that Spain stole these artifacts to begin with.
I agree that the ship itself may belong to Spain but the aritfacts belong to the country of orgin which would be Mexico.
Now lets also say that you have a signed agreement with Mexico to do a 50/50 split.
This also means that the State of Florida or the U.S. Government has "0" claim according to the LAW of 1902 and according to the International Law as explained in the 2000 ruling.
This is no different that items stolen by Germany during WW2.
Here is the KICKER.
I have applied for permisson to salavage ANY and ALL wrecks containing artifacts that belong to Mexico.
I know that this will really piss the State of Florida off but they have screwed people long enough. I am not talking about Gold or Silver but artifacts that are proven to have come fom the Mayan/Aztec regions of Mexico. That is very easy to prove.
Now we are dealing with Internatuional GREED.
What a Plate of Worms this is going to cause.
You all know why I am doing this and if you don't know you will soon enough.
You all have told me to do what is LEGAL.
Well is this Legal enough?
Peg Leg

 

[Gold_Needle]

Hey now shipmate,

I don't recall me saying any "legal" advise but I would sure say take care of yourself first.

Goverernments are greedy as they are made up of people that are greedy and view the system as their own private trough

If an individual is lucky or works hard enough and finds and retrieves treasure I believe it should be up to them to decide if they will share any and with whomever.

The reason governments hated pirates is not that people were harmed but rather money for the government was taken as well as the gov's power reduced. They hate reduced power or their will being flouted even more than losing the money. The Gov' figures the money will always be their to sqweeze from the general populace once they have the power. In a way the populace is like a bank to them.


As for lost gold etc., the bankers and money types dont consider it lost but just temporarily unaccessible until technology improves so that someone goes to get it for them; for it always will find its way back to the bankers vaults.........