3 Old Bottles from Tulsa -- ideas of value, if any?

[Archeodeb]

Hi all!
It's been ages since I've been here (too busy for fun these days ), but I was digging through some old boxes in the attic and ran across these three bottles I found in the Arkansas River in Tulsa, OK about 20 years ago. I never did more than rinse them off and stow them away at the time. I thought someone here might have something to say about them.

I am no bottle expert or anything close, but I did figure out that the Coca-Cola bottle is from 1955 and is from Tulsa (I remember someone here looking for Route 66 bottles at one time and this was one he wanted, I think).

I also know that the The Southwestern Bottling Co. bottle is a Hutchinson soda bottle and says Tulsa, I.T. (Indian Territory) but that's about it. Too bad the neck is broken, and the real kicker is that it looks like the darned thing tumbled around in the river for quite a few decades before it broke. I had the bad luck not to find it sooner. It still feels pretty sharp on that end, so couldn't have tumbled around much after it broke. It is frosted with all the tumbling, but the letters are still really raised and clear. The bottom on the other side is very indistinct though. You can see some of the letters -- though these pictures don't show it well -- but it's hard to make out what they say. My husband says it looks like "BOTTLE IS NEVER SOLD", and I can kind of see that, but does that make any sense? Do any of you know anything about this one?

The last one is an old whiskey flask, I believe, but with no markings of any sort, I assume it had a paper label. Anyone know anything about it?

I doubt the last two have much value -- despite that Hutchinson being rather rare, the condition is not great to say the least -- but thought I should consult the experts here. Is the coke bottle worth anything? I don't collect bottles, so thought I would stick these up on ebay or something if it is worthwhile. Otherwise, neat looking as they are, they are just taking up space that I need for other things.

Thanks for any info!

 

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[surf]

I also know that the The Southwestern Bottling Co. bottle is a Hutchinson soda bottle and says Tulsa, I.T. (Indian Territory) but that's about it...
My husband says it looks like "BOTTLE IS NEVER SOLD", and I can kind of see that, but does that make any sense? Do any of you know anything about this one?

Hello Archeodeb,

The Southwestern is not a Hutchinson, though they did make them. The long neck indicates it would have been a blob top, or possibly an early crown cap. Oklahoma gained statehood in 1907.

"The interests of BS Beard in the Southwestern Bottling Company, Tulsa Okla were purchased on April 22 by ML McKinney, of Iola Kans. The concern is one of the largest of its kind in that section of the country." American Bottler - 1910

Hutchinsons look like this:

The legend of "This Bottle is Never Sold" was the bottler asserting that the bottles belonged to the company and were to be returned. It is commonly found on bottles of the period.

The Coke is worth a couple bucks, tops. The flask, not so much.

The keeper, for me, would be the Southwestern, Indian Territory, by a mile! How often do you see one of those.

​

 

[Archeodeb]

Surf,
Thanks for the info and clearing up that phrase I couldn't make out on the Southwestern bottle. (My husband is gloating at being right.) I am a little bit confused about that Southwestern though. I knew that Hutchinson looked like those you posted because I have seen a lot of them, but thought this must be some odd long-necked version because of what I found when I Googled "Southwestern Bottling Co." This came up...

http://www.hutchbook.com/Bottle%20Directory/Documents/USA-InT-Hutches.pdf

Read what it says on the second entry from the top on page 5 of the PDF. Everything fits (except possibly the height) -- but of course, there is no photo. What do you think it means?

I also found this image from an old ebay sale showing one that looks almost exactly like it except it says "Tulsa, Okla" instead of "Tulsa, I T" and is in a lot better shape.

1900s Antique Tulsa Oklahoma The Southwestern Bottling Co Soda "s" Bottle Aqua | eBay


PS That Golden Driller sure brings back a lot of memories!

 

[epackage]

Here's your bottle whole, it predates the O.K. variant, if whole it would be worth a decent amount because of the Indian Teritory attribution...

 

[surf]

...I knew that Hutchinson looked like those you posted because I have seen a lot of them, but thought this must be some odd long-necked version because of what I found when I Googled "Southwestern Bottling Co." This came up...

http://www.hutchbook.com/Bottle%20Directory/Documents/USA-InT-Hutches.pdf

Read what it says on the second entry from the top on page 5 of the PDF. Everything fits (except possibly the height) -- but of course, there is no photo. What do you think it means?

Hello Archeodeb,

I did look at Ron Fowler's landmark catalog, HutchBook.com. That's how I knew there were Hutchs.

" CITY M COLOR HT DIA Plate SHAPE R 10 Panel Base S COMMENTS
Oklahoma Soda Bottles #501
InT0065 Tulsa 2 Light Aqua 7.125" 2.25" Round
THE SOUTHWESTERN / BOTTLING CO. / TULSA, I.T. // Blank // S (large)?"

Sorry I can't reformat his listing, but what it says above, translated is that the #501 is light aqua 7.125" tall, 2.25" diameter, Round slug plate, a 10 panel base ("Mug base," to some folk) it's Scarce, and has a large "S" on the base. You can see one over here: CHECK THIS OUT!!! though the photo is not good.

Can you see any lettering on the heel? There were plenty of glassmakers in Oklahoma: GLASS MANUFACTURING

 

[Archeodeb]

Surf,
Wow, that link to the historical information was interesting. After reading through everything, I think this bottle most likely came from the Sand Springs Glass Company. The area of the river we used to hunt regularly is less than a mile from Sand Springs. I was re-examining the bottle to see if there were any marks -- other than those I mentioned in the original post and photographed, and noticed that the seams are a little bit "off". Also something I noticed earlier but forgot to mention is that the large "S" on the bottom is a double or possibly even a triple strike (if you look closely at the photo, you can see a kind of ghost image behind the raised letter, and at one point in the center, you can see two additional images). The bottle is also lopsided with way more glass on one side than the other and is super-heavy on that side -- like the mold was accidentally tipped while molten. At the bottom the glass ranges from 5/16 to 1/2-inch thick from one side to the other, so that is a considerable difference. Anyway, I was wondering if this bottle may have been a never-filled reject that ended up in the river from a pile on the riverbank near the factory. (I don't know the exact location of the factory, or if it is even still there, but that seems a likely possibility given all the defects.) What do you think?

I am still confused about why this is stamped exactly like the Hutchinson but isn't a Hutchinson. The only difference I see is the top from shoulder up. Of course, that is exactly what makes a Hutchinson a Hutchinson, but what I mean is, why would they stamp them in precisely the same way for two different top styles? Is this just a later version but retaining the same overall design (except the top)? Possibly the link between the old-style Hutchinson "Tulsa, Indian Territory" soda bottle and the new cork (or whatever they used)-style "Tulsa, Okla" soda bottle? (This measures 2-7/16-inches wide; and right at 7-3/16 to the break, so with an added top I imagine it would be somewhere around 8-inches tall.)

Another question... I weighed the bottle, and even with the top lobbed off, it weighs just a hair under 1 pound, (15.996 ounces) empty and dry as a bone. That is one hefty bottle! Is that a normal weight for this long-necked style? I know Hutchinsons were designed to withstand a lot of inner pressure, but what about this type -- wouldn't this have been merely corked? Under too much pressure it should flip its top, not break the bottle, so what would be the point of this kind of thickness? (It is 3/16-inch thick even at the thinness part of the broken neck.)

The only thing I can see in the way of writing around the heel (I assume that is the bottom edge?) is the "This Bottle is Never Sold" thing. Nothing lower or on the bottom plate except the "S". It is possible something may have been there at one point, but the bottle is so worn, and pock-marked from tumbling around in the river, I can't tell.

 

[surf]

Also something I noticed earlier but forgot to mention is that the large "S" on the bottom is a double or possibly even a triple strike (if you look closely at the photo, you can see a kind of ghost image behind the raised letter, and at one point in the center, you can see two additional images). The bottle is also lopsided with way more glass on one side than the other and is super-heavy on that side -- like the mold was accidentally tipped while molten. At the bottom the glass ranges from 5/16 to 1/2-inch thick from one side to the other, so that is a considerable difference. Anyway, I was wondering if this bottle may have been a never-filled reject that ended up in the river from a pile on the riverbank near the factory.

Hey Archeodeb,

This bottle was most likely an early Crown Cap. Bottles had somewhat of a fashion element in their design and appeal. The Crown Cap was invented in 1892 by William Painter. It was the latest, greatest, but was slowly adopted. New moulds were quite expensive.

Inventor of the Week​

The Crown replaced the Hutch, the Blob, and many other previous closures, as it was eventually recognized as a most economical solution to many converging factors & forces in the Bottling and Glassmaking industries. Hand made bottles had nearly met the end of the line. There were semi-automatic machines in some plants. Michael Owens' beast of an Automatic Bottle Machine debuted in 1905.

A short clip of an early Machine: [video]http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/michaelowens.mpg[/video]

The Pure Food & Drug Act of 1906 was just around the corner. The Great War and Prohibition were on the far horizon.

I am still confused about why this is stamped exactly like the Hutchinson but isn't a Hutchinson. The only difference I see is the top from shoulder up. Of course, that is exactly what makes a Hutchinson a Hutchinson, but what I mean is, why would they stamp them in precisely the same way for two different top styles? Is this just a later version but retaining the same overall design (except the top)? Possibly the link between the old-style Hutchinson "Tulsa, Indian Territory" soda bottle and the new cork (or whatever they used)-style "Tulsa, Okla" soda bottle? (This measures 2-7/16-inches wide; and right at 7-3/16 to the break, so with an added top I imagine it would be somewhere around 8-inches tall.)

The plate mould style of both the Hutch and the Crown are very similar because they were accomplished using what some call a Slug Plate that was inserted in the mould.

Here's some plates (mainly druggists): November 2003 Molds Molds and More Molds

The gaffer would have stood above this mould and blown a gob of glass into the mould.

I dunno about bottle weights, I never have weighed any. I do appreciate one with nice heft though.

Glass production​

 

[Bass]

Surf, thanks for the links. This cleared up a couple of questions foe me as well concerning slug-plates.