a bone comb

[larson1951]

the only one i have ever found or seen

musta took a lot of time to make it

 

[redbeardrelics]

Very nice artifact Steve, (my apologies for calling you Larson in a previous post). No offense to anyone here, just adding in my 2 cents worth. I think Steve's artifact is probably a hair ornament as has been suggested, due to it being too small and narrow to efficiently comb a whole head of hair, at least by todays standards. I also think the teeth, or more specifically the gaps between them, would be too narrow to be efficient as a pottery coil scoring tool. It seems they would get clogged with wet clay or slip on every pass, and have to be wiped clean before making another scoring pass, but who knows, maybe that is exactly what they did? Also, I have to say that the bone comb Charl has posted looks very similar, if not exactly like numerous bone combs we have dug from pre 1860 privy pits in Baltimore and other east coast towns. With one side having wider gaps for normal combing of the hair, and the other side having very fine gaps for combing out lice and their eggs. We would find them made of bone in pre civil war pits, and then later pits you would find them made of Goodyear rubber and bakelite type materials. I am not saying that Native Americans did not have the same kind of combs, just saying that the colonists, or white man had some like that too.

 

[larson1951]

Another very cool piece.
Obviously what I stated above is only my opinion but I'm just looking at things like the fact it's only the size of a thumb.. I wouldn't expect something that small to be utilized effectively on an entire head of human hair... If it was however it would take many many runs through the scalp which to me with the oils in the hair and skin would lead to it being highly polished.
It seems a whole lot more likely to me that it's a small utilitarian tool used in pottery making.
I believe I see the bone actually worn down from this process toward the tips

View attachment 1037539

.... Here's a couple interesting interior pottery pieces .. That to me go along with your new photos ... These markings and that new piece seem to fit the mold of a dentate stamp to me....anyway.

View attachment 1037540

well you do make a point but i am still leaning towards a mandan dandy's comb which were paired with a piece of mirror and worn on the wrist

now i see what you say about the very ends being polished but that could easily happen from comb use as that part would show polish from being rubbed on the scalp


anyhow gator i guess i could just give up here and call me wrong and you right hehe haha lol...............

........i am sure of one thing that you, charl, the rest of the tnetters and myself think.......it is a cool piece

 

[GatorBoy]

Definitely a cool piece not trying to make anyone right or wrong just taking the opportunity to conversate about the piece is all.
It's just a little more fun for me that way instead of just saying nice find and that's it :-)
I didn't realize you were hunting in an area so new as to have pieces of mirrors.
They were invented in 1835

 

[larson1951]

Very nice artifact Steve, (my apologies for calling you Larson in a previous post). No offense to anyone here, just adding in my 2 cents worth. I think Steve's artifact is probably a hair ornament as has been suggested, due to it being too small and narrow to efficiently comb a whole head of hair, at least by todays standards. I also think the teeth, or more specifically the gaps between them, would be too narrow to be efficient as a pottery coil scoring tool. It seems they would get clogged with wet clay or slip on every pass, and have to be wiped clean before making another scoring pass, but who knows, maybe that is exactly what they did? Also, I have to say that the bone comb Charl has posted looks very similar, if not exactly like numerous bone combs we have dug from pre 1860 privy pits in Baltimore and other east coast towns. With one side having wider gaps for normal combing of the hair, and the other side having very fine gaps for combing out lice and their eggs. We would find them made of bone in pre civil war pits, and then later pits you would find them made of Goodyear rubber and bakelite type materials. I am not saying that Native Americans did not have the same kind of combs, just saying that the colonists, or white man had some like that too.

hey hey redbeard you don't gotta apologize for calling me larson......nope not at all......btw you can actually call me about anything you wish to.........i don't let things bother me lie that........never did lol

the reason my screen name is 'larson1951' is......i am also a musician that plays vintage guitars from the early 1900's that were built by the Larson brothers (August and Carl Larson)..........
.........and i was born in 1951.........so that's why it is..............."Larson1951"

funny thing......I never ever thought that this initial post i started would turn into something this interesting and such a good (3page) thread

 

[larson1951]

Definitely a cool piece not trying to make anyone right or wrong just taking the opportunity to conversate about the piece is all.
It's just a little more fun for me that way instead of just saying nice find and that's it :-)
I didn't realize you were hunting in an area so new as to have pieces of mirrors

hey hey gator i like it when you enter into this discussion
you bring up good points and yes the saying "nice finds"can be a bit generic but it beats the daylights out of not saying anything

the site is so old that we can find oxbow, pelican lake, duncan-hanna, etc
and yet it is so new that general george custer used to visit it an also Lewis and Clark, George Catlin, Carl Bodmer, etc were here

so yes there were times post contact here with mirrors also there was a trading post here

 

[GatorBoy]

That's a lot of layers of history

 

[larson1951]

That's a lot of layers of history

yup

i agree

it is at least 3000 or more years old

a great location bordered by water on 3 sides with a palisade on the remaining side

 

[Charl]

Another very cool piece.
Obviously what I stated above is only my opinion but I'm just looking at things like the fact it's only the size of a thumb.. I wouldn't expect something that small to be utilized effectively on an entire head of human hair... If it was however it would take many many runs through the scalp which to me with the oils in the hair and skin would lead to it being highly polished.
It seems a whole lot more likely to me that it's a small utilitarian tool used in pottery making.
I believe I see the bone actually worn down from this process toward the tips

View attachment 1037539

.... Here's a couple interesting interior pottery pieces .. That to me go along with your new photos ... These markings and that new piece seem to fit the mold of a dentate stamp to me....anyway.

View attachment 1037540

Good points Gator, and I do understand exactly where you are coming from. Although this may not be the case with Steve's piece, many of these combs were not used to actually comb hair, but rather to hold sections of hair in place like a woman's barrette(?). Or just as a decoration. And I imagine they could be in different sizes. Would there be much use wear on bone that is scratching wet clay? Seems to me wet clay would not wear bone down much, if even at all. Looking at the ends, some seem broken, and not sure how clay would wear down the bone that looks worn. Scratching rock, of course, but wet clay? It isn't going to offer any resistance to the bone scratching it, it's going to yield easily with little resistance to the tips of the implement at all, so why would it wear the bone down? Well, maybe after many years of such usage. Anyway, I agree, fun to discuss possibilities not immediately obvious or considered. I know I learned something new regarding pottery tools in general, and was not expecting that.

 

[GatorBoy]

They clay would be full of temper at that point..like wet sandpaper.
I agree this turned out to be a good conversation piece

 

[timekiller]

This one looks like a piece of turtle bone.Or at least that's what comes to my mind as I see them quite often here on the coast.
Take Care,
Pete,

TheBoneman.com Turtle Page

 

[timekiller]

I didn't grab your quote, but it's the last one you posted Larson.

 

[timekiller]

haha....yep

well my name is steve bauman............i think i might take your advice and change it to 'stevie boneman'.......

anyhow for the new ideas i am seeing here i am gonna post this image of a piece i own and put up for discussion

View attachment 1037532 View attachment 1037533 View attachment 1037534 View attachment 1037535

This was the one I tried to reply to.....

 

[larson1951]

wow cool

what is it??

 

[GatorBoy]

That is a photo of the naturally shaped carapace bones of a turtle shell

 

[timekiller]

wow cool

what is it??

They are the belly part of sea turtles. They are called plastron the bone that I'm thinking your piece most looks like is called hypoplastron bone. Your last one I'm talking about looks just like one to me after being cut out. Was your area ever under sea water Could have also been traded I guess.Just saying my thoughts. I've seen many of these bones
Take Care,
Pete

 

[Charl]

Here's a nice one. Jeb Taylor is an honest seller and knowledgable. Wonder if it will sell....

14 Seneca Moose Antler Effigy Comb | eBay

 

[GatorBoy]

Here's one for you I don't want to keep beating the fact that I think this is a utilitarian tool... but the use wear and the size of this object definitely point me in that direction... I do not believe this was used as a hair decoration or in any other fashion on a human head.
Take a moment and search the term Weaver's comb

 

[GatorBoy]

 

[GatorBoy]

No offense Charl but this piece in question is not some extravagant effigy comb or anything it's barely half the size of his finger and looks like its been used a lot.
In the description of that last one you posted it said it was found inside a brass kettle I'd have a hard time not believing that was European... Brass is an alloy metal.. Copper kettle would be more logical.

 

[Charl]

No offense Charl but this piece in question is not some extravagant effigy comb or anything it's barely half the size of his finger and looks like its been used a lot.
In the description of that last one you posted it said it was found inside a brass kettle I'd have a hard time not believing that wasn't European... Brass is an alloy metal.. Copper kettle would be more logical.

Yes, it was found in a brass kettle. Well guess what? It was found at a Seneca Village site dating to the Contact Period!!
Gator, I'm only showing folks a nice antler effigy comb dating from a time when these Iroquois villages were visited by French Jesuit missionaries. All kinds of trade goods found in these villages. And you will find brass effigy combs at such sites as well. You need to recognize I am not trying to extend an argument with you. I was not addressing you or the pottery idea. I was just showing folks a beautiful effigy antler comb, displaying a Seneca clan symbol. What does that have to do with you or your theory?? This was only a discussion, no right or wrong just as you yourself said. Now, relax already, your knowledge is not being challenged, nobody, least of all me, is trying to show you up or prove that you MUST be wrong.

These artifacts below are from the Seneca Dann Site, a Seneca Village occupied from c. 1655-1675, and very nearby the village that produced the antler crane effigy comb. Note the mix of European and native items. The brass/copper points were actually made by native men by cutting up brass and copper kettles. Brass combs were often made by the natives themselves in imitation of the bone effigy combs the Iroquois were accustomed to. You mention that "I'd have a hard time not believing that one wasn't European". Well, Gator, if you knew anything about the actual Seneca village site in question, or anything at all about Iroquois bone and antler effigy combs, you just wouldn't be saying that, since it's flat out wrong. The bone and antler combs are native made. You are mistaken in that instance, Gator. Have as difficult a time believing it's not native as you please, but you're mistaken there.
And I do appreciate the thoughts you've brought to the discussion, but the antler effigy had nothing to do with those thoughts.

BTW:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_prb/a/antler_weaving_comb.aspx

"This is a weaving comb, a very common object found on excavations of Iron Age settlements in Britain. It is made of antler and was used when weaving woollen cloth on a loom. The comb has a hole made through the end of the handle so it could have a leather thong or piece of rope passed through to tie the comb to a person's belt. The comb has clearly been used and many of the teeth at the end of the comb have been broken."

Weaving wool and coiling pottery are different activities.

http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/openc...ing_Comb_Tain-o-nan-nai_or_O-na-pa-nai_1_of_2

The above example of a Native American weaving comb is not tiny, it is 7 1/4" long and made of wood.

I found the page for the photo of comb you posted above, but it was identified as a weaving comb by a weaver, an opinion is all that is, who mentioned he used a similar tool made of wood. Weaving comb is an interesting possibility, but it isn't proven in Steve's case at all. It's simply another possible option. Worth considering I'm sure, and it's an excellent possibility to point out, IMO. But, for weaving, not pottery scoring in the case of weaving combs. It may be an option in Steve's case, but if Steve leans toward hair comb or hair piece, that's his call. The other photo shows 19th and 20th century Navajo wooden weaving combs. Again, thanks for bringing up these types of combs. It IS relevant, as far as I'm concerned. And while Steve's comb is small, I will again point out many were not used to comb hair, but to keep hair in place, or sections of hair in place. Exactly like a woman's barrette, which do not have to be big to do the job intended. Even Steve's example is big enough to keep a "pony tail" in place.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/14939-indian-artifactbone-comb