A case AGAINST discrimination and TID

[luvsdux]

I'll start by stating that I tire of digging tabs and trash and often cherry pick a site as I'm sure most of us do. That said, if one hunts mostly in all metal or with no discrimination and/or ignores the tid you'll end up digging targets that are masked more often than you think. The problem with discrimination and TID is all too often the junk target is either discriminated out, and/or shows as junk on the display while the coin or piece of jewelry near or under it is then ignored by the detector. One can experiment with this by placing a coin near or under a tab, nail etc. and then pass the coil over it with the discrimination set for the trash item. Depending on the machine and coil one can move the two apart a bit at a time until you hit the point where you get two distinct signals. This varies from one machie to another so it behooves each of us to check our own machines.

The thing about all metal or "0" discrimination is the machine will give a signal for the targets regardless of whether trash or treasure. When the tab, nail or whatever is dug, check the hole to be sure there isn't another target close by that may well have been masked by the junk target. Fairly often it will be well worth the extra effort.

A similar tip - we see time and time again that many jewelry targets fall in the nickel tab range so set your discrimination below that. Well, guess what, many small rings etc. fall and are Id'ed right in the zinc penny range so those that don't care to dig the zinc signals may be missing the occasional goodie as well. After this tip was pointed out to me, the second zinc target I dug turned out to be a small black hills gold ring. Lesson learned.
HH
luvdux

 

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[dneyedli@res1.mts.net]

I spent a lot of years cherry picking and have only realized what you speak of in the last few years. Numerous times I have taken a concentrated area, dug a hole, shut my machine off and pulled many non-ferrous goodies out of thick trash(in relic hunting sites) that never gave a signal before I dug. Because we have been impressed with "see through" technology, we have become more relaxed in thinking that we are not missing much. Many hunters may not realize just how many goodies are being masked.
I have followed construction sites for years and seen hunted out parks and boulevards yield tons of old coins and goodies when only a couple inches of sod is scraped off. I have seen many of these finds near the surface or a couple of inches deep, which would put all of them in a easy detectable depth before the land was scraped. I just worked a major park last fall that has seen every detector in the book. They only scraped a couple of inches off and the place was loaded!
This is an easy conclusion that all those goodies were masked from EVERY type of detector. A point I have been trying to make on this forum since 2003.
Thanks Luvsdux for this good post and I agree with you.
Dave.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

You need to post this in the TIPS section

 

[Tom_in_CA]

luvdux, it's no secret to anyone that by using discrimination, you *could* potentially miss something good, that fell in to that disc'd out range. Heck, even discriminating out iron is still risky. Afterall, there *might* be something good hiding underneath those nails that is masked, eh?

But what good does this information do? Sure, everyone knows it, so is that to say that the solution to finding more goodies, is to strip-mine? I mean, to follow your advice to the logical conclusion, we should not even nix out iron (lest it be masking a coin or ring underneath it). What you are therefore advising, (to use little to no disc in junky sites) would be a worse evil, believe me. If you doubt me, then go to the nearest inner city blighted junky park, and have a field day. Yup, turn down your disc, and dig all. After the umpteenth thousand aluminum tab, wino cap, foil wad, etc... you will get the gold ring In fact, knock yourself out and use a nugget machine, so you really don't miss anything at all. Afterall, they can pick up whispy tinsel thin gold necklace chains that your standard coin/jewelry machine might miss. The fact that you'll also pick up every single birdshot, paperclip, straight-pin, etc... should be of no consequence, right? Afterall, you *might* miss something good, unless you did that

So no, the method to upping one's old coin or jewelry count, is NOT to merely lower the disc, and strip-mine junky sites. A much better use of one's time is to go to where those old coins, and jewelry, are more abundant, to begin with. If jewelry is my goal (for instance), I'm NOT going to go to the urban junky inner city blighted parks, and weed through the foil and cr*p. Instead, I would go to swimming beaches. Swimmers, sand, slippery suntan lotion, cool waters that shrink fingers, etc... is where jewelry loss ratios are much more condusive (and sand it easier to dig in). So you can see in that example, that the advice to up ring counts, is fool-hearty to stop at "lower your disc", as that is only half of the equation.

Sometimes metal detecting is like black-jack: When you have 20 in your hand, do you take another hit? Or do you hold? Why wouldn't you take another "hit"? Afterall, the next card *might* be a one card, right? But the truth is, that odds are, it's not. Likewise, if I get a perfect pulltab signal underneath pulltab ridden bleachers, odds are, it's going to be ......... A PULLTAB. Therefore I'm going to mine the silver and copper coins out from under pulltab ridden grandstands/bleachers. But if I got that same exact pulltab signal on the storm eroded wet beach (where mother nature has pulled out all the lightweight aluminum stuff, leaving only heavier targets), I would get MUCH more excited about digging pulltab signals.

 

[dneyedli@res1.mts.net]

luvdux, it's no secret to anyone that by using discrimination, you *could* potentially miss something good, that fell in to that disc'd out range. Heck, even discriminating out iron is still risky. Afterall, there *might* be something good hiding underneath those nails that is masked, eh?

But what good does this information do? Sure, everyone knows it, so is that to say that the solution to finding more goodies, is to strip-mine? I mean, to follow your advice to the logical conclusion, we should not even nix out iron (lest it be masking a coin or ring underneath it). What you are therefore advising, (to use little to no disc in junky sites) would be a worse evil, believe me. If you doubt me, then go to the nearest inner city blighted junky park, and have a field day. Yup, turn down your disc, and dig all. After the umpteenth thousand aluminum tab, wino cap, foil wad, etc... you will get the gold ring In fact, knock yourself out and use a nugget machine, so you really don't miss anything at all. Afterall, they can pick up whispy tinsel thin gold necklace chains that your standard coin/jewelry machine might miss. The fact that you'll also pick up every single birdshot, paperclip, straight-pin, etc... should be of no consequence, right? Afterall, you *might* miss something good, unless you did that

So no, the method to upping one's old coin or jewelry count, is NOT to merely lower the disc, and strip-mine junky sites. A much better use of one's time is to go to where those old coins, and jewelry, are more abundant, to begin with. If jewelry is my goal (for instance), I'm NOT going to go to the urban junky inner city blighted parks, and weed through the foil and cr*p. Instead, I would go to swimming beaches. Swimmers, sand, slippery suntan lotion, cool waters that shrink fingers, etc... is where jewelry loss ratios are much more condusive (and sand it easier to dig in). So you can see in that example, that the advice to up ring counts, is fool-hearty to stop at "lower your disc", as that is only half of the equation.

Sometimes metal detecting is like black-jack: When you have 20 in your hand, do you take another hit? Or do you hold? Why wouldn't you take another "hit"? Afterall, the next card *might* be a one card, right? But the truth is, that odds are, it's not. Likewise, if I get a perfect pulltab signal underneath pulltab ridden bleachers, odds are, it's going to be ......... A PULLTAB. Therefore I'm going to mine the silver and copper coins out from under pulltab ridden grandstands/bleachers. But if I got that same exact pulltab signal on the storm eroded wet beach (where mother nature has pulled out all the lightweight aluminum stuff, leaving only heavier targets), I would get MUCH more excited about digging pulltab signals.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from with this post. Are you saying it was not good for luvdux to post this? If everyone knows this, then why would it hurt to say it again? If someone's sites are getting more thinner, (for easy signals) and they feel like working it harder, then why not present a happy ending with finding those hidden goodies. I've cashed in on many iffy/masked signals and it was worth the extra work. Sometimes, I moved on to easier pickings. If you're healthy and capable, then why not! I'm sure any Archaeologist would agree as they have seen the thousands of artifacts concentrated in one area.
If someone likes jewelry that much and are hungry for it, then they will find it through all that tin foil, pull tabs and can slaw. The point is that it remains hidden until you weed it out.
I'm sure you know all this and I'm not attacking you. I'm just sayin'
Dave.

P.S. Out here everyone heads for the same beaches and it's picked clean while all the sports fields, parks, etc. contain lots of jewelry still waiting to be discovered.

 

[Iron Patch]

luvdux, it's no secret to anyone that by using discrimination, you *could* potentially miss something good, that fell in to that disc'd out range. Heck, even discriminating out iron is still risky. Afterall, there *might* be something good hiding underneath those nails that is masked, eh?

But what good does this information do? Sure, everyone knows it, so is that to say that the solution to finding more goodies, is to strip-mine? I mean, to follow your advice to the logical conclusion, we should not even nix out iron (lest it be masking a coin or ring underneath it). What you are therefore advising, (to use little to no disc in junky sites) would be a worse evil, believe me. If you doubt me, then go to the nearest inner city blighted junky park, and have a field day. Yup, turn down your disc, and dig all. After the umpteenth thousand aluminum tab, wino cap, foil wad, etc... you will get the gold ring In fact, knock yourself out and use a nugget machine, so you really don't miss anything at all. Afterall, they can pick up whispy tinsel thin gold necklace chains that your standard coin/jewelry machine might miss. The fact that you'll also pick up every single birdshot, paperclip, straight-pin, etc... should be of no consequence, right? Afterall, you *might* miss something good, unless you did that

So no, the method to upping one's old coin or jewelry count, is NOT to merely lower the disc, and strip-mine junky sites. A much better use of one's time is to go to where those old coins, and jewelry, are more abundant, to begin with. If jewelry is my goal (for instance), I'm NOT going to go to the urban junky inner city blighted parks, and weed through the foil and cr*p. Instead, I would go to swimming beaches. Swimmers, sand, slippery suntan lotion, cool waters that shrink fingers, etc... is where jewelry loss ratios are much more condusive (and sand it easier to dig in). So you can see in that example, that the advice to up ring counts, is fool-hearty to stop at "lower your disc", as that is only half of the equation.

Sometimes metal detecting is like black-jack: When you have 20 in your hand, do you take another hit? Or do you hold? Why wouldn't you take another "hit"? Afterall, the next card *might* be a one card, right? But the truth is, that odds are, it's not. Likewise, if I get a perfect pulltab signal underneath pulltab ridden bleachers, odds are, it's going to be ......... A PULLTAB. Therefore I'm going to mine the silver and copper coins out from under pulltab ridden grandstands/bleachers. But if I got that same exact pulltab signal on the storm eroded wet beach (where mother nature has pulled out all the lightweight aluminum stuff, leaving only heavier targets), I would get MUCH more excited about digging pulltab signals.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from with this post. Are you saying it was not good for luvdux to post this? If everyone knows this, then why would it hurt to say it again? If someone's sites are getting more thinner, (for easy signals) and they feel like working it harder, then why not present a happy ending with finding those hidden goodies. I've cashed in on many iffy/masked signals and it was worth the extra work. Sometimes, I moved on to easier pickings. If you're healthy and capable, then why not! I'm sure any Archaeologist would agree as they have seen the thousands of artifacts concentrated in one area.
If someone likes jewelry that much and are hungry for it, then they will find it through all that tin foil, pull tabs and can slaw. The point is that it remains hidden until you weed it out.
I'm sure you know all this and I'm not attacking you. I'm just sayin'
Dave.

P.S. Out here everyone heads for the same beaches and it's picked clean while all the sports fields, parks, etc. contain lots of jewelry still waiting to be discovered.

When he says is definitely what applies here, it's better to dig all the decent targets than move on to the next site as it's a better use of your time therefore finding you more. Decent targets can have a different definition depending on who you are, and where you hunt, but for me it's all non ferrous and a handful of iron hits that are solid and worth chasing. I have some great old field sites that have given up some sweet finds, and there not 100% tapped out, but our chances of a great day are much better by scouting a new site. It should also be mentioned there can be a HUGE difference between hunting in allmetal and zero disc. depending on the detector. Some people might preach allmetal when they're really in zero disc. and still using their ears as discrimination. This is far different than true all metal where you turn into a digging machine. Heck If I detected in allmetal and dug every sound I would still be at the same fields I started with ten years ago. I bet I'd have a few hundred more finds, but that would be trading off the thousands I found by moving on.

 

[Hardy]

I agree with You & Dave and Iron Patch on his last statement , very low Disc is used by all of us Relic Hunters and I set mine just to accept

nails at a setting just above Black Sand. EARS are my true Detector. How ever , I will use All Metal in the field after CHERRY

Picking with my EARS. Please remember that I dont hunt parks and I only hunt relics for my research , Modern nails do Piss

me off and sound differant in my ears.

 

[luvsdux]

Well, as I mentioned in the original post, I cherry pick some of the time and I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should always dig everything. My main point was to show those that aren't aware of the masking and separation characteristics of detectors that they might be well advised to experiment a bit to get a handle on how that effects their machines. For instance, I've found that one of my less expensive machines does a better job of picking up and separating a coin close to an iron nail than my most expensive upscale machine. A bit of an eye opener for sure. In the end, I'm a believer in dig or pass on any targets in your own way whether I would or not. Do whatever keeps it fun for you, but be aware of the quirks of your machine.
HH
luvsdux

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dave, sorry I came across too strong :P Just trying to ad another angle to the pro's and con's of disc. As a longtime club pres., having met many many beginners over the years, I saw firsthand the following frustration: The beginner sees someone hold up a gold ring they found. The finder might say "it came it at foil, or tab, (or whatever) so be sure not to disc. out foil and tabs!!" The newbie would head out to the parks and schools during the month that followed, lowering his disc. as the wise sage advisors had told him. Then at the next meeting, he'd come in with perhaps a single gold ring, and a big frown on his face, explaining that it took him several days of stripmining around a single picnic table to get it (after which he was probably kicked out of the park for too many divots ). So the tactic that works for some areas (relicky areas, beach hunting, etc...) may not be worth the time in a junky urban blighted area. There are some hunt type sites, where it's more worthwhile to cherry pick a little, in the interest of time.

All's I'm saying is discrimination is site-specific. Some places you use less (relicky sites, beaches, etc..) and other places, going low disc. will just net you headaches, not more good finds.

 

[dneyedli@res1.mts.net]

Dave, sorry I came across too strong :P Just trying to ad another angle to the pro's and con's of disc. As a longtime club pres., having met many many beginners over the years, I saw firsthand the following frustration: The beginner sees someone hold up a gold ring they found. The finder might say "it came it at foil, or tab, (or whatever) so be sure not to disc. out foil and tabs!!" The newbie would head out to the parks and schools during the month that followed, lowering his disc. as the wise sage advisors had told him. Then at the next meeting, he'd come in with perhaps a single gold ring, and a big frown on his face, explaining that it took him several days of stripmining around a single picnic table to get it (after which he was probably kicked out of the park for too many divots ). So the tactic that works for some areas (relicky areas, beach hunting, etc...) may not be worth the time in a junky urban blighted area. There are some hunt type sites, where it's more worthwhile to cherry pick a little, in the interest of time.

All's I'm saying is discrimination is site-specific. Some places you use less (relicky sites, beaches, etc..) and other places, going low disc. will just net you headaches, not more good finds.

I agree, what you're saying as I do this for relic hunting but wouldn't find the patience to dig junk under a bleacher as you were saying. I think that because I was a cherry picker for so many years and took pride in digging more goodies than junk and feeling that I'm not leaving much behind, makes the surprise more unbelievable that there is a lot more than meets the eye going on in the ground. I have been taking a lot more risks in the last few years have been rewarded. My hunting techniques always evolve but this type of hunting has given me a new zest for making sure I leave no stone left unturned.
Junk can be a real turn-off to a newbie as I know it was for me for a lot of years. I should clarify that it is more worth it to hunt in say all metal for relic hunting, than all metal in a city park, unless they can tolerate tons of modern trash. In an old hunted out park, I will remove about 20 bottle caps in a heavy bottle cap patch, and almost always get an old coin or two in that area when the caps thin out.
I never was thinking about the plug factor though, and this type of hunting is not recommended for newbies or a hunter that is not skilled in the use of a digging probe. Cutting a million plugs in a manicured lawn is not good. Nobody should have to cut a plug for near surface trash and popping pull tabs or bottle caps can be done easily with a screw driver. Removing tin foil requires a little more effort as to not damage the grass. So yes, this type of hunting is not recommended in manicured places.
Good posts everyone.
Dave.

 

[Hardy]

Disregard what MUDDYHANDZ says as he just started Metal Detecting yesterday at about 1:22 pm

 

[dneyedli@res1.mts.net]

Disregard what MUDDYHANDZ says as he just started Metal Detecting yesterday at about 1:22 pm

What's metal detecting?
Where am I?

 

[Iron Patch]

Disregard what MUDDYHANDZ says as he just started Metal Detecting yesterday at about 1:22 pm

Plus how could we trust anyone who cherry picked for years

 

[dneyedli@res1.mts.net]

Disregard what MUDDYHANDZ says as he just started Metal Detecting yesterday at about 1:22 pm

Plus how could we trust anyone who cherry picked for years

I do have a fondness for cherries. Especially B.C. cherries.
mmmmmm cherries.