A Little Known Legal Issue

[tabdog]

Hi folks,

I am a retired land surveyor as well as an avid MDer.

Do you find people's property corners for them?

If you try to locate a person's property corners, and you have
struck up a contract, you could be violating a state law. It may
be that the contract is just verbal.

In any state I know of, it is not legal to practice surveying with
out a license.

What if they got sued because of your property location.

Say they built a building on someones else's property.

You could be sued for money as well as prosecuted for practicing
surveying without a license, especially if you got paid.

It is not likely to happen, but it could.

Do not trust what they tell you. You will take on some responsibility
unless other wise stipulated.

There are already far too many property disputes. They are the most
common type of case on the state's higher court's dockets around here.

How qualified are you?

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

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[kenley]

Not being from clinton's state, where they don't know the meaning of "is",I would think that discovering a property marker would rate an "attaboy'"not a liberal lawyer visit.

 

[tabdog]

Not being from clinton's state, where they don't know the meaning of "is",I would think that discovering a property marker would rate an "attaboy'"not a liberal lawyer visit.

You may be right just about all the time.

But, if you hurt someone financially,

WOULD YOU FEEL BAD?

Maybe that is the issue.

But, it could be a legal issue.

That means $$$.

That is why surveyors always end up in court.
That is why they need professional legal
protection.

Are you qualified?

It may be a nice old lady with a lawyer
as a neighbor.

Driving to the store to get baby food
may get you an attaboy,

but runnin over grannie will get you 20 years,,, lol

It does not matter that you did not know it
was against the law to run over grannie.

Where most folks stick out their necks is when they say
something like this;

"I found your property corner and here it is."

Then, they take money or barter for the work.

That is taking on a host of possible ways to get in trouble
legally.

Having experience in legal issues concerning professional
land surveying is what I base my conclusions on.

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[Mark S.]

I guess it would all depend on what you represented. If someone asks me to find a stake in "this" area and I find a marker there then that is the end of it. I did what they ask. I made no representation of any boundaries. I just located an item that they ask me to find which they represented to me that they lost. If I was paid then I was paid for the locating service and not a surveying service. Been there and done that!

I don't see how that would make me a surveyor. I made no measurements and drew no maps. If I locate a well casing underground (done that) that does not make me a well driller. If I locate a septic tank (done that) that does not make me a septic system installer. If I locate a pipe (done that) that does not make me a plumber. If I locate a wire (done that) that does not make me an electricain.

A surveyor is performing a service of measureing and marking a boundary. Along with drawing a map and description of those boundaries. They also place those markers at the corners. I see no comparison to a detectorists finding an existing marker at the request of a property owner. I think you are really stretching it here.

 

[diggemall]

I would have to second Mark S's assessment.

The act of locating a marker for someone in no way is representing that you have found THE marker, that it is in the correct location, or that you are certifying ANYTHING as would be the case with a surveyor............

As someone who executed other peoples designs as well as my own for over 20 years, the distinction on liability was always quite clear: My design, my liability - your design, your liability. Even if it was I that worked up the details of the design, the fact that I did so under your instruction / supervision / approval made the design (and the ensuing liability) yours.

To phrase it another way, in executing your design, I am selling you my services as an engineer to make YOUR ideas reality. If I were selling you the completed idea w/o your input, then it is MY idea I am selling and I bear the liability for the design.

With the surveying bit, every time I paid a surveyor to survey land for me my expectations were not for them to locate the existing corners - the reason for paying them was to validate that the corners were properly located and to provide a certified document stating as much.

Diggem'

 

[gleaner1]

I have gladly found a few stakes for friends and family, just for the thrill of it. I never thought about the legal issues, very interesting. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[GibH]

I've done it for a couple of people. I only suggested possible locations of the stake and never charged anyone for it. In todays litigous society, the OP may be right though. People have sued over dumber things.

 

[tabdog]

I guess it would all depend on what you represented. If someone asks me to find a stake in "this" area and I find a marker there then that is the end of it. I did what they ask. I made no representation of any boundaries. I just located an item that they ask me to find which they represented to me that they lost. If I was paid then I was paid for the locating service and not a surveying service. Been there and done that!

I don't see how that would make me a surveyor. I made no measurements and drew no maps. If I locate a well casing underground (done that) that does not make me a well driller. If I locate a septic tank (done that) that does not make me a septic system installer. If I locate a pipe (done that) that does not make me a plumber. If I locate a wire (done that) that does not make me an electricain.

A surveyor is performing a service of measureing and marking a boundary. Along with drawing a map and description of those boundaries. They also place those markers at the corners. I see no comparison to a detectorists finding an existing marker at the request of a property owner. I think you are really stretching it here.

Professional surveying is very misunderstood.

It is not like a builder or a construction worker.

Surveyors faces are on Mount Rushmore, not plumbers.

It is not what you believe. It is what the judge believes.

If the judge thinks you took money to locate a land owner's
property corners, it does not matter one bit what you or I think.

Who do you think gets prosecuted for practicing surveying without
a license?

I will tell you,

NON-SURVEYORS, that's who,,,,, sheesh!!

If it don't happen in your state,

IT SURE HAPPENS IN ARKANSAS.

Are you good enough to locate corners for money,

or are you just too big for your pants?

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[tabdog]

Property disputes are the most common type
of case in state case law courts.

When there is a property dispute, everyone
gets dragged into court that is involved
with the case.

What do you think the judge will think about
some yaahoo that located the land owner's
corners in the wrong place and took money
for doing so?

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[tabdog]

oops

 

[Lowbatts]

Finding pins is something I've done many times for neighbors and while working sidewalk tearups. I have no liability because I have NOT given a legal description of the property, just pointed out where the pins are. No different than water shutoffs and other lines that have near-surface attributes.

BTW, I can find a pin just as quickly as a surveyor, but without the 8-10 additional holes in the lawn.

But again, I never tell people that this is their property marker, I tell them that they need to get a surveyor to create the legal definition of their property. I tell people this up front, that it's a surveyor who writes the legal definition of the property and the judge who approves it. Very simple.

My charge? None
But a soda pop, and I get to keep the goodies I find along the way unless otherwise stated is always welcome.

 

[warsawdaddy]

I've had three surveys on this wooded 15 acres.Two of them were wrong.I'm just an old fart(75) who knows math,optics.No one told me that the pin I found was in the right place or not and I didn't ask before having it surveyed.The first surveyor(no helper) said it was right but didn't bother to go through the brush and heavy woods.The next one,in one hour said it was wrong and placed it differently.I thought he was off and had a third do a survey which I accompanied him and his helper.The pin was placed again differently but agreeable to me and my neighbor and a drawing produced which neither of the other two did.Finding a pin for someone is just that,it's just where that pin is at that time with no implication that it is where it should be or not or even if it is the propertyline marker or just a guess by someone.I can't see that a beep from an md over a piece of rebar puts a legal question on the md'r.It's just a starting place for the landowner/buyer to show the surveyor(a competent one,hopefully).

 

[Willee]

TabDog, I think you are getting a little silly with all this.

If a neighbor asked me to find some metal stakes in his ground I am not representing myself as a surveyor.
Just a friend with a metal detector.
What he does with his own metal stakes after I find them for him is his business ... not mine.

And the only payment I might accept is a cold beer.

BTY ... are you giving legal advice without a bar license?

Willee

 

[Johnnysan]

The Mother of an ex-girlfriend of mine is now the sole owner of rental property in Espinola New Mexico. Neighbors of this property have built a storage shed, which, according to a professional surveyor, is 4 feet onto her land. The problem is, the builders of the shed 'say' they had a verbal statement from the owner (my ex's father, who is now dead) that a survey had been done, and that the land is theirs.
Unfortunately, New Mexico is notorious for a laid-back attitude about who owns what property. It seems the last 'real' survey was done in the 20s (that anyone can find). The builders of the shed are Seik (not sure about the spelling); the renter is Seik. A real sticky situation at best. The shed owners are ignoring letters, and won't return phone calls; I think they are hoping the owner, who is now in her 80s, will simply die and the problem will go away. To compound the problem, the Seiks have made it known for years that they want all they property owned by my ex's mother, which has been in the family for generations.
This structure that was built is only about 5 by 5, but is on a concrete foundation and has a water line run up to it. My advice was to write a letter stating they had to move it or it would be moved or destroyed in 30 days, at their expense.
BTW, the surveyor took weeks to complete the survey, and charged about $1800; I think it should be accurate (or as accurate as anything is in NM).

 

[AUDuke]

This is an inane topic and nothing I am going to worry about

 

[greydigger]

Wasn't there a game show where the MC yells out "Survey Says!"

 

[tabdog]

Finding pins is something I've done many times for neighbors and while working sidewalk tearups. I have no liability because I have NOT given a legal description of the property, just pointed out where the pins are. No different than water shutoffs and other lines that have near-surface attributes.

BTW, I can find a pin just as quickly as a surveyor, but without the 8-10 additional holes in the lawn.

But again, I never tell people that this is their property marker, I tell them that they need to get a surveyor to create the legal definition of their property. I tell people this up front, that it's a surveyor who writes the legal definition of the property and the judge who approves it. Very simple.

My charge? None
But a soda pop, and I get to keep the goodies I find along the way unless otherwise stated is always welcome.

Those are common misconceptions about surveying.

When folks get that far off, I won't even mess with it.

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[tabdog]

I've had three surveys on this wooded 15 acres.Two of them were wrong.I'm just an old fart(75) who knows math,optics.No one told me that the pin I found was in the right place or not and I didn't ask before having it surveyed.The first surveyor(no helper) said it was right but didn't bother to go through the brush and heavy woods.The next one,in one hour said it was wrong and placed it differently.I thought he was off and had a third do a survey which I accompanied him and his helper.The pin was placed again differently but agreeable to me and my neighbor and a drawing produced which neither of the other two did.Finding a pin for someone is just that,it's just where that pin is at that time with no implication that it is where it should be or not or even if it is the propertyline marker or just a guess by someone.I can't see that a beep from an md over a piece of rebar puts a legal question on the md'r.It's just a starting place for the landowner/buyer to show the surveyor(a competent one,hopefully).

After all that screwed up mess you just told us about,
and then you say it does not matter.

It matters so much that property disputes are the most
common type of case in the state's case law courts.

When something is screwed up, screwing it up farther
is just adding fuel to the fire.

As far as what locating property corners is involved, you
are not qualified to tell us what it constitutes. That is
obvious by your response.

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[tabdog]

TabDog, I think you are getting a little silly with all this.

If a neighbor asked me to find some metal stakes in his ground I am not representing myself as a surveyor.
Just a friend with a metal detector.
What he does with his own metal stakes after I find them for him is his business ... not mine.

And the only payment I might accept is a cold beer.

BTY ... are you giving legal advice without a bar license?

Willee

I am not saying that finding a marker for a friend or a relative is wrong.

When talking about finding property corners on these metal detecting sites,
people will usually talk about taking money for their services. In these times
of few jobs when some one might think that making money by locating
property corners might be a good idea.

Well, guess what, it is against the law. Besides yahoos already mess things
up real good.

Why add to the confusion?

Why break the law? Is it just because you probably get caught? If it is,
just join the gangs and punks, and please don't call your self a treasure
hunter or a metal detectorist while you are at it.

You guys with out any surveying experience sound silly when you try to
compare yourself with professionals. It is easy to tell that you guys do not
what you are talking about.

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[teleprospector]

In Michigan, it's not illegal to locate property irons. It is illegal for a person to set, tamper with or disturb property irons and any other survey markers unless you are employed by a registered land surveyor or you are an RLS.
If I'm asked to locate property markers I always assume that there is a property dispute between the neighbors so I let the person requesting my service see where the metal detector is beeping and let them dig after I tell them the above information and after I'm gone. If you feel there is something mysterious going on, go with your gut feeling and leave the site.
Jon