Will the mass robbery of Native American graves ever end?

dognose

Bronze Member
Apr 15, 2009
1,795
4,415
Indiana
Detector(s) used
Fisher F70
I am not posting many of the images, nor my comments on this issue. But I have many views on this.
----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- -------------------------

For centuries, everyone from archaeologists to amateurs pillaged artifacts ? and human remains. Now, the FBI is cracking down on those who continue to dig.

By Elizabeth Evitts Dickinson
JULY 8, 2021
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

The day the SUVs arrived in Waldron, Ind., a rural town 40 miles southeast of Indianapolis, the residents took notice. It was April 1, 2014, and to get to the house on South 850 West you had to drive down a long stretch of flat roads, past orchards and farmland. The line of government cars was easy to spot in this community of less than 700 people.


The caravan pulled in front of a large, if unassuming, rural home. FBI Special Agent Tim Carpenter and cultural anthropologist Holly Cusack-McVeigh got out of the cars, accompanied by other agents and the local sheriff. They walked past a human-sized terra-cotta replica of a Chinese warrior, which offered a first hint of the obsessions of the homeowner inside.


Carpenter, armed with a 100-page search warrant, the largest he?d ever compiled, knocked on the front door. When Don Miller, age 90, appeared, he only smiled. He didn?t seem worried to find federal agents standing on his porch. ?I don?t think he believed that what he had done was problematic,? Carpenter told me. After consulting with his lawyer by phone, Miller voluntarily let them in.


Inside, and squirreled away in outbuildings across his property, was one of the largest personal stores of cultural artifacts in the world, according to the FBI. ?In my experience dealing with antiquities cases, a large private collection would have been 100 pieces,? Carpenter says. ?Then I walked into Don Miller?s house.? He had more than 42,000 items.
In the basement, glass cases and wooden shelves displayed some of what he?d amassed in a makeshift museum. He loved to show off the items that he?d dug out of the ground and gathered over eight decades, regaling friends, Boy Scout troops, curators and reporters with stories of his global adventures. Miller was what professional archaeologists deridingly call a pothunter, an amateur who seeks buried treasure. Amateur archaeology is a thriving hobby in America, with many types of collectors. Surface hunters gather what has leached from the earth or what may have been churned up by, say, farm or construction equipment. Relic hunters tend to use metal detectors. And then there are those like Miller who employ shovels and picks and, in his case, heavy machinery. Digging is when you become a pothunter.


Miller was one of the most prolific pothunters of his generation. He began digging as a kid and was still going well into his 80s. He traveled the world buying and excavating, eventually displaying in his basement artifacts ranging from Ming Dynasty vases to ancient Italian mosaics to Indigenous wares from Indo-Pacific regions such as Papua New Guinea. One archaeologist brought in by the FBI openly wept when he saw the vastness and quality of what Miller had reaped.
Carpenter showed up at Miller?s house that April morning as a member of the FBI?s Art Crime Team. Formed in 2004, this unit of 25 specially trained agents seeks to rescue stolen cultural items. Agents often work undercover, posing as experts in the art world or as collectors. The team has repatriated art stolen by the Nazis and returned fine art and antiquities to their countries of origin.


The Miller case represented a shift: Increasingly, the Art Crime Team had been looking into thefts against Native American communities and how to repatriate items back to those tribes. Miller?s main obsession was with Native American cultural goods; 80 percent of what he took came out of the ground in the United States. He stockpiled thousands of arrowheads and stone tools and sherds of pottery. Some of what he gathered had been unearthed before laws explicitly said he couldn?t, but much of it he?d gotten illegally.


Many pieces in Miller?s home came from graves, where Indigenous peoples bury their loved ones with personal items meant to carry them into the afterlife. Pothunters like Miller routinely target Native American graves ?looking for the associated funerary goods,? Carpenter explains.


Miller, however, didn?t just take the funerary artifacts. He also took Native American bones ? a practice that, historically, has been shockingly common. ?Pothunters come here and dig, and they have stolen pots and our human remains,? says Leigh Wayne Lomayestewa of the Hopi Tribe, who works as a research assistant in the Hopi Cultural Preservation Office in Kykotsmovi Village, Ariz. ?We used to call them pothunters. Now we call them looters.?


When the FBI left Miller?s house ? six days after arriving ? they had uncovered more than 2,000 bones, representing 500 human beings, and seized more than 7,000 items. Forensic anthropologists were able to determine that the bones primarily belonged to Native Americans. Miller may have been an anomaly for the size of his looting, and the extent to which he took bones out of graves, but ?Don Miller is not unique,? says Deborah Nichols, who is president of the Society for American Archaeology. ?He was just able to do it on a larger scale than most.?


Federal land management agencies estimate that more than one-third of Native American sites on federally protected property have been emptied. Many of those sites were graves. To take just one example of the scope of theft: According to a 1997 FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, 95 percent of Native American graves on public land in southwest Virginia have been pillaged. And this doesn?t begin to account for the graves on private property.


In some cases, the plunder happened years ago at the hands of professional archaeologists, scientists and museums looking to extract, exhibit and study the past: Nearly 200,000 human remains were found to be housed in federally funded museums and institutions in the United States, according to one governmental inventory. But we have yet to account for what has been taken by pothunters and held in private collections. Meanwhile, zealous hobbyists and those looking to cash in on a lucrative global demand for Native American goods continue to ransack graves.


The theft is so pervasive that there?s an active debate about whether to mark Native American burials on public and tribal lands. Officials who police these areas worry that such markers act as an X on a proverbial treasure map.
What was at stake in the Miller case, in other words, was much more than one man?s decades of plunder. Miller?s spoils were just a tiny part of a centuries-long campaign of theft perpetrated in the resting places of Native Americans ? a campaign that we are only now beginning to fully understand. We have taken Native lands and tried to eradicate Indigenous societies, yet it?s not only what we?ve done to the living that is so deplorable. It?s what we?ve done, and continue to do, to the dead.


attachment.php



On a cold Decemberday in 1620, several Pilgrims at Plymouth set out to find the local Indians. They followed a beaten path through the woods, which they presumed would lead to a town or at least houses, but after traveling for some time, they saw no signs of life. On the way back, they came to a clearing in the woods and discovered, instead, a ?place like a grave, but it was much bigger and longer.? The Pilgrims dug it up.


What they found is recounted in the diary ?Mourt?s Relation: A Journal of the Pilgrims at Plymouth.? Inside were knives and bows and various Indian ?trinkets.? They came upon two sealed bags. The first, which was filled with a mass of fine red powder, contained the bones of a man whose skull still had traces of hair and decomposing flesh. A second, smaller bag contained the remains of a child whose body had been encircled with ?bracelets of fine white Beads.? They took ?sundry of the prettiest things? and left.


What compels a person to reach inside the grave of another and take what?s there? ?There?s this notion that some people?s graves are for plunder because they are not considered to be fully people,? says Gabrielle Tayac, a member of the Piscataway Indian Nation and an associate professor of public history at George Mason University. ?Everything can be owned, taken over and assumed by a conquering society.?


Since the arrival of European ships on these shores, White Americans have been obsessed with dead Indians. The U.S. Army made it official policy to dig up bones for study. In 1868, Madison Mills, the leading medical officer in the U.S. Army, instructed in writing: ?The Surgeon General is anxious that our collection of Indian crania, already quite large, should be made as complete as possible.? Military grave-robbing continued for decades. In 1892, an army surgeon named Z.T. Danie broke into a cemetery belonging to the Blackfeet tribe in Montana, and while the residents slept, he sneaked skulls out under his coat. ?The greatest fear I had was that some Indian would miss the heads, see my tracks and ambush me, but they didn?t,? he wrote in a letter. These bones eventually ended up in the Smithsonian?s National Museum of Natural History.
Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, anthropologists, professional archaeologists and amateur pothunters alike aimed to build collections around Native American artifacts and bones. ?The whole idea of how museums even started was as cabinets of curiosity,? Tayac says. ?It was outright desecration, and an essential lack of acceptance of the humanity of certain people.?


Samuel George Morton, a member of the Academy of Natural Sciences, procured skulls from pothunters and others around the world during the 19th century, and these now make up the Morton Cranial Collection at the Penn Museum in Philadelphia. There was ?quite a lot of interest in racial hierarchies,? Tayac says, ?showing cranial size and who is intelligent and what?s the scale from barbarism to savagery to the most highly civilized, which of course is the White race.?


Learning about skull science ?was disgusting,? says Mike Catches Enemy, who is Lakota, from the Oglala Band Sioux. He lives on the Pine Ridge Reservation in Little Wound, S.D., not far from where Miller would hunt, and works as an administrative assistant for the tribe. He was encouraged by his elders to get a master?s degree in archaeology and help the tribe better understand the methods of the profession. ?I?m asking myself during that process: What am I doing, as a Lakota man, trying to be in archaeology?? he recalls. ?But I had my elders who were encouraging me, saying, ?Go ahead, learn it so that we can be at the table with archaeologists today and they can?t talk over us. You can be our interpreter.? ?


By the 1900s, Native Americans were believed by many to have disappeared. Jacquetta Swift, who is Comanche/Fort Sill Apache and works as a repatriation manager at the Smithsonian?s National Museum of the American Indian in D.C., explains it to me this way: ?Imagine you go into a natural history museum and you?ve got animals, and then you?ve got the cave men, and then you?ve got Native people and Indigenous cultures. ... We?re in with the animals and the fossils. That is embedded, sadly, in American culture and the world.?



Legal challenges by Native Americans over the desecration of their graves began as soon as Colonial courts existed to file them, but for a long time it wasn?t explicitly illegal to dig into Native American burial sites. It wasn?t until 1906, as a market for Native American cultural items grew, that Congress passed the American Antiquities Act to try to protect some of what was being taken. The law levied fines and even jail time against those doing unauthorized excavations on federal land, and it gave the president the authority to designate national monuments. Native American bones and funerary items were given special distinction, but as material culture. ?In that act, we?re referred to as resources, alongside pots,? says Swift. ?We were considered things.?


The act did little to stem looting, and by the 1920s, the decade in which Miller was born, amateur archaeology was a thriving hobby and searching for Indian artifacts a popular pastime. Publications like Hobbies: The Magazine for Collectors included classified sections in the back advertising arrowheads and stone tools for sale. You could order an Indian finger bone for a few pennies. A skull might run you $2.


In 1935, several pothunters cracked into a mound of earth in Oklahoma and unearthed a Native American burial crypt. Today, the raiding of Spiro Mounds is considered one of the great tragedies in archaeological history, scattering untold items to the wind. But at the time, it helped spur excitement over what many considered treasure hunting. ?Most dealers and collectors, even some universities and museums, acquired many of their artifacts from the pot hunters who fanned out across the countryside in search of old Indian sites,? historian David La Vere writes in ?Looting Spiro Mounds: An American King Tut?s Tomb.?


Pothunters, archaeologists, anthropologists and museum collectors could often be found working shovel to shovel. In some places like Utah and New Mexico, pothunting was a viable business where professional institutions came to the amateurs for finds.


By the 1940s, the professions of anthropology and archaeology in America were coalescing. Amateurs like Miller were getting left out, so the hobbyists began forming clubs of their own. Archaeological societies bloomed across the country. Miller had a doctorate in electrical engineering and worked full time at Naval Avionics in Indianapolis, but he spent his free time scouring the land for artifacts. Miller and his first wife, Sue, who died in 2000, would hop on his motorcycle and spend afternoons at digs, alone or with friends. Miller often wrote about their adventures in archaeological society magazines, including one article from the 1950s about digging into a Native site, titled ?Fun on a Sunday Afternoon.?


?It was much more socially acceptable,? Carpenter says of these activities. ?We have pictures of folks going out on the weekend with their families sitting next to graves eating their PB&Js and digging up graves.?
Miller was savvy at finding sites, particularly burial mounds where he knew that individuals had been interred with precious objects. He would seek out authorized archaeological digs run by universities and ?get the skinny on the best sites and then go back to do his own illegal excavations later,? Carpenter says.


Miller had another amateur hobby, ham radio, and this allowed him to connect with people around the country and the world, asking about places to excavate. On one trip, in August 1959, Miller and his wife traveled to South Dakota in search of the Oglala Sioux. Miller was ?impressed with all the evidence that the Indian had inhabited this land for many centuries,? he wrote a few months later in the Central States Archaeological Journal, acknowledging that these sites were ?in the same areas that the Sioux are located today.? This article was published under the title ?Indiana Collectors Go on Vacation.?
One of the common defenses used by pothunters, even today, is that Native sites have been abandoned and that, by digging at those sites, they are not purloining but rather saving evidence of the ancient past. This ignores, of course, that Native lands were taken and people displaced onto reservations. It ignores, too, the way many tribes moved camps seasonally to conserve resources, and how they think about the burial process. ?Once a body is done and the spirit goes back to the spirit world, the remains of that person and anything associated with them is meant to be left alone in the earth,? Mike Catches Enemy told me. ?You want to allow the earth to absorb her again, and it becomes part of the cyclic system.?
On this South Dakota trip, Miller followed in the tracks of ?several large universities and institutions? who were also ?digging for evidence of ancient man? in the region. Soon, he and his wife came upon a remote area, where he saw what he believed to be bones protruding from the mud. ?Feeling that we had located a human burial we marked the spot in order to find it upon our return the following morning,? he wrote. They came back with a trench shovel, and ?during the cool morning hours it was pleasant digging.?


Miller dug until he came to a skeleton. He abandoned the shovel, got on his knees and began removing the soil with his hands. ?The lower jaw had dropped down giving the skeleton the appearance of voicing objection to its removal from the grave,? he wrote. Miller disinterred the skeleton, which he believed to have been a man in his 30s. He took photographs. Then the electrical engineer on summer vacation dislocated the bones one by one and ?carefully packed? them ?to be later preserved.?


It would be another 20 years before Congress passed the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979, or ARPA, which governed archaeological excavations on federal and tribal lands and tried to curb illegal excavations. By the 1980s, though, pothunting had hit a fever pitch. One New York Times article from that era recounted how ?you couldn?t move without stepping on a bone? at one federal site because ?the grave robbers were ahead of the rangers once again.?
Pothunters became increasingly sophisticated in the 1980s, using helicopters and stealth tactics to identify where to dig. While ARPA and some state laws tried to protect graves on public lands, graves on private property were not well protected. Miller was present at many of the greatest plunders of Native American burial sites in American history. He was there in 1987 when pothunters paid the owner of Slack Farm in Kentucky $10,000 to allow them the rights to dig on his property, which was a known burial ground for Native Americans. Miller was among those who came in with tractors and heavy equipment to open some 650 graves, damaging the skeletal remains while nabbing the objects. Miller was in Indiana the following year when General Electric officials and pothunters leveled a Native American ceremonial mound. Items from these lootings were found among Miller?s haul.


That decade also gave us Indiana Jones, the swashbuckling archaeologist in the movie ?Raiders of the Lost Ark? and its sequels. One archaeologist complained to the New York Times in 1984 that the movies heightened interest in artifact hunting and grave robbing. Larry J. Zimmerman, an archaeologist who consulted on the Miller case, remembers how even professionals in his field started dressing like the character: ?I mean, they didn?t carry a bullwhip, but they wore the leather bomber jacket and fedora and carried a canvas messenger bag.? Miller, because of where he lived, was nicknamed Indiana Jones.


In the 1980s, proposals for a bill ? then known as ?The Bones Bill? ? began circulating. It took five years, but in 1990, Congress finally passed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, or NAGPRA, which made it illegal to dig, desecrate or take any Native American remains, funerary objects, sacred objects and objects of cultural patrimony from federal and tribal lands. It also dictated repatriation to tribes, as well as the treatment of objects and human remains. The law was the culmination of generations of lobbying and activism on the part of tribes to get the federal government to finally recognize that Native bodies were targets and needed to be protected.


At that point, the Smithsonian housed more than 19,000 Native American bodies. Thirty-one years later, the repatriation effort continues; Jacquetta Swift?s job is to help identify remains and return the bones to their people for reburial. (The Smithsonian is governed by a law similar to NAGPRA, known as the National Museum of the American Indian Act.) It?s notable, she says, that a society should need a law like NAGPRA in the first place. NAGPRA isn?t just about cultural theft, she explains: ?It?s considered human rights legislation by Native peoples.?


Around the same time NAGPRA was enacted, New Mexico also signed into law a stricter grave-protection act. Andrew Gulliford is a historian and former museum director who has helped citizens and pothunters return artifacts taken from public and tribal lands, and he snapped a photo in the Mimbres Valley not far from where he lived back then. It shows a pothunter ravenously digging into a Mimbres site with a bulldozer before the state law went into effect at midnight. With stricter laws, some pothunters began carrying loaded shotguns to scare off potential witnesses as they worked.
NAGPRA violations committed after 1990 were part of what gave the FBI probable cause to raid Miller?s house. But throughout much of his life as a pothunter, NAGPRA didn?t yet exist, and other laws that might have deterred him were only sporadically enforced. Miller was able to dig without consequence.


Before the raid in 2014, the FBI had already been to Don Miller?s house. A tip had come in to the Indianapolis field office in 2008 from someone who worried Miller had a nuclear trigger in his basement. Miller had served in the Army Signal Corps during World War II, and he claimed he?d worked on the secretive Manhattan Project. He liked to tell people that he?d been just six miles from the test of the atomic bomb and that he had been the one to give the signal for its detonation. ?He did not have a nuclear trigger,? Carpenter says. ?But he did have a little piece of depleted uranium that they took for safety reasons.?


Carpenter wasn?t part of that earlier investigation, and the agents who?d gone into Miller?s house were specialists in weapons of mass destruction and not trained in antiquities. ?They remarked on his collection but didn?t know what they were seeing,? Carpenter told me. In 2013, Carpenter fielded a second tip to the Indianapolis office, this time from a person close to Miller who understood that some of what he had was illegal. The FBI?s previous case offered Carpenter the ability to go into Miller?s house, saying that he was following up.


One of the first people Carpenter brought in to consult on the investigation was Holly Cusack-McVeigh, a cultural anthropologist at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis (IUPUI). Cusack-McVeigh has spent years working with Native American tribes on the repatriation of sacred objects and, as she told me, ?to help protect ancestral burial sites and claim their ancestors, who are held in institutions around the world.?


There are 574 federally recognized American Indian and Alaska Native tribes and villages, each with its own set of beliefs and cultural truths. In some tribes, there is no time or distance between the living and the dead. Ancestors are entities in a spirit world who actively help broker and care for those on Earth. To disturb the bones is to not just put the dead into a kind of purgatory, but to forever disrupt the connection with the living.


Cusack-McVeigh looped in her colleague Zimmerman, who was a professor at IUPUI at the time. When Carpenter and Cusack-McVeigh showed Zimmerman photos from inside Miller?s home, ?I could immediately see that he had grave goods,? he says.
The morning of the raid, along with the SUVs, there were semi-trucks hauling a command center and a porta-john. FBI agents and experts set up climate-controlled tents and forensic labs on Miller?s land so they could safely sift through the items.
People in town wondered what all the commotion was about. Articles in local papers had appeared over the years, like a 1998 feature in the Indianapolis Star under the headline ?Rush County home is full of collectibles from years of missionary work around the globe.? Miller was a beloved churchgoing guy known in the community as an avid collector of artifacts and relics. Now South 850 West was blocked a half-mile around his home.


Miller owned hundreds of acres, but he had 10 of those dedicated to what Carpenter called a homestead. There was the main house, an old farmhouse, a former barn, several smaller buildings and sheds. One building held an electronics repair business Miller had started in retirement, and below that was a room dedicated to fine pottery. Miller had also built fallout shelters underground, which were connected by a tunnel. The moisture there ?was horrendous, and we were in Tyvek suits and masks going down into those places,? says Zimmerman, who is now retired.


What Zimmerman saw shocked him. Glass cases lit from within held hundreds of artifacts, but in other places, priceless items were piled in moldy boxes. There were artifacts and bones everywhere across the property. Miller had disarticulated the bodies and commingled bones. He didn?t follow the standard process for cataloguing finds and making detailed notes about the in situ setting as a professional archaeologist would, so determining where bones had been removed often came down to other contextual clues. In one instance, Zimmerman found a black plastic bag of skulls that also included a receipt from a grocery store in South Dakota.


As the scope of human remains scattered across Miller?s property became clear, Carpenter paused the work to ask tribal leaders how they should proceed. It was the first time the FBI had actively partnered with Native American tribes during a recovery.


Basic osteological exams told the FBI?s forensic team that these were Native American bones, and in a normal crime scene investigation they would have also run tests for DNA and carbon dating, but tribes requested that they refrain. The testing requires some damage to the bone, which would have run counter to many burial traditions and beliefs; in addition, the tribes weren?t comfortable with the FBI housing so much genetic information. ?Tribes were unified in saying: We know you don?t know who all of these ancestors are, but we do not want invasive DNA testing to determine that,? Cusack-McVeigh says. ?Early on, they were guiding the FBI on what, from a cultural perspective, was acceptable and what was not.?
The FBI brought in Charmayne Champion-Shaw, a member of the Cheyenne tribe and director of IUPUI American Indian Programs, to advise on how to care for the remains. Zimmerman says he ?watched as agents apologized to the bones and put a small tobacco pouch in each box.?


One afternoon, the FBI stopped its work altogether, turning off the compressors that kept the tents inflated and silencing the generators. A tribal elder from the Pokagon Band of Potawatomi Indians, the only federally recognized tribe in Indiana, and a member of the Choctaw Nation offered prayers that carried over a loudspeaker as agents bowed their heads.
Midway through the week-long recovery, FBI agents, along with Zimmerman and other consultants, went before a room of reporters to explain what was happening at Miller?s residence. That night Zimmerman received his first death threat over email. ?Saw you?re selling out to the FBI,? it read. ?When the revolution comes, we know what your address is. Watch out.?


Zimmerman was not the only one on the Miller case to receive threats. The case has raised ire among those who believe the government shouldn?t dictate who can dig and collect what they consider to be the historical past, particularly when it?s on private property. Commenters on articles posted online about the Miller case said the government had overreached by coming on private land and taking what they saw as Miller?s hard-earned collection.
Arguments continue to rage among professional archaeologists, anthropologists and museums over what can be dug up, studied and displayed, and what should stay in the ground or remain in their collections. NAGPRA requires any institution that receives federal funding to inventory and repatriate bones, funerary items and objects of cultural patrimony to tribes. But compliance, which is monitored by the National Park Service, has been slow. Harvard University has more than 22,000 individuals held primarily in the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, and the Warren Anatomical Museum. Most are Native American, but at least 15 were recently identified as belonging to enslaved people. Harvard has apologized for collecting practices that benefited from ?colonial and imperial policies? and for placing ?the academic enterprise above respect for the dead and human decency.?


Three decades after NAGPRA, the university has only repatriated a small percentage of what it houses. ?An apology is worthless unless it is accompanied by a change in behavior,? Shannon O?Loughlin, who is Choctaw and the chief executive for the Association on American Indian Affairs (AAIA), wrote in an open letter to Harvard President Lawrence Bacow in February. ?You have significantly more deceased Native people in boxes on your campus than the number of live Native students that you allow to attend your institution.? Harvard released a statement late this spring saying it will revisit its procedures to be in better compliance with NAGPRA. Around the same time, the Penn Museum announced a plan to try to repatriate and rebury the 1,300 skulls in the Morton Cranial Collection, some of which belonged to enslaved people.
Meanwhile, the market for Native American objects here and abroad remains robust ? which in turn continues to fuel grave robbing by pothunters. A few years ago, Leigh Wayne Lomayestewa was in the desert with a group of Hopi schoolchildren showing them Indigenous sites when he came across fresh dirt, evidence of a recent looting.


?People think this is something that happened in the past,? Cusack-McVeigh told me, ?but it?s something that tribes are dealing with now. In 2021, they are still working to protect their dead and their belongings.? In all of our interviews, she was cautious when speaking about reburials. ?Grave robbers know that tribes are often reburying the dead with their belongings. So funerary objects that have already been looted can be re-targeted, sometimes by the same people, if we?re not careful.?


But it?s easier to be vigilant in theory than in practice. ?Our reservation and our landscape are spread out vastly over the prairie, and we can?t watch all of our sites where we know people are buried,? says Justin Pourier, an executive board member for the Oglala Sioux Tribe. ?A lot of our graves are unknown even to us because our people understood, going back, that we had to try and keep burials as private as we could.? Some of the Sioux chiefs were buried in secret, Pourier says, to keep them safe from grave hunters.


?We keep an eye on eBay and on auction sites,? says Kevin Daugherty, a member of the Pokagon Band of Potawatomi Indians. The AAIA has an auction alert website that allows tribes to search for stolen grave goods and sacred items.
A few federal agencies have begun to try to quantify the decades of theft. No comprehensive data on the world market for Native American cultural items exists, but in 2018 the U.S. Government Accountability Office attempted to calculate at least some of the export, theft and trafficking of Native American cultural items abroad. It identified several auction houses in Paris as primary markets for stolen goods, and calculated that between 2012 and 2017 nearly 1,400 items believed to have been illegally obtained from U.S. tribes were auctioned, fetching nearly $7 million. The GAO report covers just a sliver of the market. In May, Congress picked up a years-long debate around proposed laws meant to police the international trafficking of artifacts, many of which come from gravesites.
Increasingly, agents from the Bureau of Land Management, the FBI and the National Park Service have gone after pothunters. Some of Miller?s buddies in the amateur archaeology world have been rounded up over the years for breaking antiquities laws. But by then, there had been so much theft over such a long period of time.


Miller died in March 2015, nearly a year after the raid. He had cooperated with the FBI on the search and seizure, and charges were never filed against him. A few months before he died, the Indiana Archaeological Society honored Miller with their Lifetime Achievement Award, which is ?bestowed upon a person who ? has given unselfishly of themselves to the advancement of ? amateur archaeology.?
This past May, Carpenter flew to Indianapolis from D.C. and met Cusack-McVeigh at the secured facility where, since 2014, they?ve been housing the items and remains recovered from Miller. They had completed international repatriations to Canada, China, Haiti and Italy, and one repatriation and reburial to Native tribes in the Great Plains. Now they were preparing to return sacred objects, funerary items and human remains to seven tribes in the Southwest where Miller liked to steal.
Miller spent a lot of time in Arizona, and there was enough evidence to know that several individuals in his possession were Hopi. ?They were taken out in an area by Springerville from an exact location that is unknown, but we had them reburied as close as possible to where they were taken out,? Lomayestewa says, careful not to be too specific because of ongoing fears they?ll be targeted. ?They are in the ground now, and hopefully they are back with their loved ones there.?


Many scientists believe that DNA holds the cure for disease. That poses a problem for some Native Americans.


The customs and rituals for burial in tribes are precise, as they are in most cultures. There are no rituals, though, for reburying the dead. Tribes vary in how they see the items that were taken. For the Hopi, some sacred objects are considered living deities, and they had to consider how to welcome them back in order to put them at peace. Others simply cannot rebury their dead or handle the funerary items because they are poisonous after being prepared by conservators back in the days when arsenic was thought to be an effective preservation chemical. The FBI had scientists on-site at Miller?s property equipped with technology to scan for heavy metals, because that was something they worried about.


Since the FBI went public with more details about the Miller case in 2019 in an effort to help repatriate items and ancestral remains to tribes, calls into the FBI have gone up by 400 percent. ?We?re seeing a societal change as younger generations understand that what was done in the past wasn?t okay,? says Carpenter, who is now the supervisory special agent and manager in charge of the team. Art Crime currently has several active cases involving pothunters.


In recent years, boxes of broken pottery and sometimes bones have come back to the Hopi. People mail them or drop them off anonymously. ?Some write that they believe they cursed themselves by taking them,? Lomayestewa says. ?Now they want to bring it back.? Still, the Hopi are missing so many sacred objects, including entire altars where they once worshiped, and Lomayestewa hopes the right people might read this article and consider returning them. He also notes that the Hopi are waiting for skulls and other remains of ancestors to be returned from various museums and historical archives.


Many of the human remains recovered from Miller?s property will never be fully identified. In May, Justin Pourier and Mike Catches Enemy traveled with several elders from the Lakota Sioux tribe to Indianapolis, to the secret location where the ancestors and funerary items have been kept. They were part of a delegation of tribes brought in to consult with the FBI about what should happen to the 100 ancestors whose tribal affiliations are not fully known, but who came from the Dakotas.


As soon as they walked inside the building, Pourier says, they could feel the ancestors. It was heavy and uncomfortable, but they persisted to let the spirits know that they were there. ?We ended up not looking at anything that was there, really,? Catches Enemy says. ?We went into one room and it was so ?? He sighs deeply here and takes a moment. ?I can?t even think of the word. Disappointing? Discouraging? Disgusting? To be in there. And yet, we wanted to honor the ancestors and let them know that we are here to help, regardless of that man?s wrongs, and whoever had touched them, and however they were mishandled. We wanted to talk to the spirits to let them know that.?


They identified themselves through their Lakota names, their spirit names. They prayed. ?We told them that we?re here to help them get home,? Catches Enemy says. But where, exactly, is home? ?We don?t know where they all came from,? he explains. ?So what do we do? Are we building a mass grave? Are we creating a hundred new burials? And how do we know which of those artifacts goes with which person??


And then there?s the question of the ceremony. When people offer a prayer for their dead, no matter the language or the culture, the wish is the same: to release the soul and send it on its way in peace and in love. To believe, to hope and also to expect that whatever comes next for that spirit will proceed undisturbed.
Elizabeth Evitts Dickinson is a writer in Baltimore.
Design by Clare Ramirez. Photo editing by Dudley M. Brooks.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/maga...mass-robbery-native-american-graves-ever-end/
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210711-213351.jpg
    Screenshot_20210711-213351.jpg
    80.7 KB · Views: 904
Last edited:
Upvote 1

quito

Silver Member
Mar 31, 2008
4,624
4,832
south dakota
Detector(s) used
good eyes
My favorite burial mound in my neighborhood.
attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • 3AE441BA-8AE2-4CD0-8F57-30FAFEA06CAC.jpeg
    3AE441BA-8AE2-4CD0-8F57-30FAFEA06CAC.jpeg
    2.1 MB · Views: 173

Garscale

Bronze Member
May 4, 2020
1,242
3,281
East texas
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
thats how they buried them here, it’s well known and documented. Others nearby were dug up many years ago.

Got it. Down here we have little mounds just like them but they are middens, not burial.
 

uniface

Silver Member
Jun 4, 2009
3,181
2,823
Central Pennsylvania
Primary Interest:
Other
this seems more about delayed cultural respect than science in the service of religion.

So no one in Europe has respect for the people who came earlier ?

Those skeletons preserved in Europe are generally not the remains of any very recent history, with living descendants, whose not so distant ancestors lived through that history.

Absurd. European genetic markers run back tens of thousands of years.

I see this as more a question of Native Americans insisting on respect. They don’t want their remains uncovered, studied, DNAed, etc.

Unlike some, I can recall the USA in the 1950s. Vividly. And had the benefit of knowing, in the '60s, a Native American who had grown up the old way although a Yale graduate. When I asked him whether his people collected the artifacts they found in their fields, he laughed and said, "When you turn your garden and find old broken medicine bottles and rusty tin cans, do you clean them up and save them ? What use did we have for stone tools once we had steel ones ?"

This I recognized as the "old school" Indian mentality -- intensely practical and here-&-now in focus. The Victim Stance mentality you're going on about was adopted from white social engineers, beginning in the 1960s (which I also remember, although through a haze of smoke). They did it to everybody. Native Americans, Black folks, women, any other minority they could get to hold still and listen to them. The White Man is the cancer of history. HE'S the reason for all the exploitation, misery and unfairness in the world.

Manure.

Dismounting soapbox now.
 
Last edited:

uniface

Silver Member
Jun 4, 2009
3,181
2,823
Central Pennsylvania
Primary Interest:
Other
I posted an Orwell quote a little bit ago that it seems like nobody registered the sense of. Charl's posts (note that Charl has my immense respect for his knowledge and independent thinking capacity) are one perfect example of it.

George Orwell said:
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

The old timers who remember the way it was die off and take that understanding with them, leaving the younger people depending on what they are told about it.

Native people then were keenly aware of the injustices they were subjected to -- starting with the grifters in the Department of Indian Affairs and similar bodies siphoning off the funds allocated for their benefit into their own pockets and those of the political-financial establishment.

George Orwell said:
Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct; nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary.

This is the root problem faced by those trying to reconstruct the past on the basis of actual fact in a nutshell. Truth and fact contradict the emotionally-based narrative that "validates" the conclusions the social engineers are anxious should not be challenged. Because those narratives steer people in the direction(s) desired by the narrators.

People can condemn attempts to bring this to general awareness as "politics," but is is simply CONTEMPORARY HISTORY, noted as it unfolds. Current events. The Who and the How behind the What.

Does "history" = "politics ?" In one aspect, sure. But does that stop it from being history and explaining history ? Should it be consigned to the Memory Hole every time it pokes its nose out ?
 
Last edited:

Charl

Silver Member
Jan 19, 2012
2,976
4,427
Rhode Island
Primary Interest:
Relic Hunting


So no one in Europe has respect for the people who came earlier ?



Absurd. European genetic markers run back tens of thousands of years.



Unlike some, I can recall the USA in the 1950s. Vividly. And had the benefit of knowing, in the '60s, a Native American who had grown up the old way although a Yale graduate. When I asked him whether his people collected the artifacts they found in their fields, he laughed and said, "When you turn your garden and find old broken medicine bottles and rusty tin cans, do you clean them up and save them ? What use did we have for stone tools once we had steel ones ?"

This I recognized as the "old school" Indian mentality -- intensely practical and here-&-now in focus. The Victim Stance mentality you're going on about was adopted from white social engineers, beginning in the 1960s (which I also remember, although through a haze of smoke). They did it to everybody. Native Americans, Black folks, women, any other minority they could get to hold still and listen to them. The White Man is the cancer of history. HE'S the reason for all the exploitation, misery and unfairness in the world.

Manure.

Dismounting soapbox now.

uni, I’m not going to get into it with you, but you clearly misunderstood what I was saying, esp. your second point.

One, of course there is respect for the past in Europe.

Two. This is where you seem to misunderstand. I did not say people in Europe today do not have genetic markers extending back many thousands of years, and are therefore not related to very ancient remains found in Europe. I was saying that, in the case of Native Americans, the history of conquest, etc., is relatively very recent. It is not recent in Europe. So unearthing a bog burial, for instance, is unearthing a much more ancient past. And, yes, unearthing Paleo, or very early remains in the United States is also unearthing a distant past. But, the history of Western culture upon native culture is very recent, and there exist a good deal of resentment born of the history of the past several hundred years. When ancient remains are unearthed in Europe, you do not have descendants who are remembering unfortunate events that are only a few generations old, involving their bog body ancestors. That is what I meant by entirely different contexts in Europe and the United States.


The refusal to cooperate in DNA studies by native people in the United States is born of distrust, itself born of the very recent history of just a few centuries. Wounded Knee, the last mass murder in the “Indian Wars” was only 1890. But, in Europe, if a bog body, to continue to use that example, is unearthed, you will not see genetic descendants of those people up in arms, because of any recent history. There is no recent history to be resentful towards. In other words, the circumstances, the historical context, in other words, is very different. That is what I was trying to say in the second of my statements that you selected to critique. You misunderstood what I was saying entirely, by the sounds of your critique.


Anyway, as to your last point, each group of people have their own unique history. This is the same as saying each group exists on a different time line of history. It is not about victim mentality at all. The history itself is clear enough. And each group of people is free to understand and interpret their own historical time line. And the perspective of the “losers” of historical dynamics will be different than the perspective of the “winners” of historical dynamics, conflicts, etc. Remembering that history, and relating it, accurately and factually, from the perspective of the “losers” is not victim mentality. It is history as seen from their timeline and their cultural perspective. They are not required to tailor it to the satisfaction of any other group or culture.

And the modern day American Indian movement was born of native leaders like Russell Means and Leonard Peltier, not white social engineers. Remember the Wounded Knee events of 1973? That was the birth of the modern day movement, not white ivory tower social engineers creating victim mentalities. But, in any event, I began teaching American history, trying to describe it from my understanding of the native perspective, in 1969, as a history grad assistant. I always started my intro classes to American history with at least one or two full classes suggesting history is written by the winners, but it can also be written by the losers, and I tried to impress the need for understanding that. But the American Indian Movement itself was born of native leaders, not white sociologists, or in my case, back in those distant days, a white history grad student/teacher. And again, they are entitled to present their own history as they see fit….I did figure you would indeed zero right in on victim mentality, and therefore miss my points entirely. But, I’ll take that as my fault. I’ll just conclude I did not explain myself adequately.

Take care….
 
Last edited:

kentucky Quinn

Sr. Member
Jul 27, 2013
467
938
Eastern KY
Great statement made in there Charl...one I?ve used for many years and always explained to my children. History is written by the victors...so true. There are at least two sides in most instances, but clearly the winner always had their scribes record the event in a manner that showed the good guys prevailed. They didn?t want to be remembered or recorded in written record as the ambush tyrant who snuck in during the night and slaughtered the sleeping, unsuspecting victims of their said conquests. Yes, history has been passed down to us in a hero who saved the day perspective, which many many times, was not how it happened at all. Unfortunately, the dead party that was wiped out has no one to recollect the events from their perspective. Thanks for discussion. You guys both make valid points and enjoy reading the discussion
 

Charl

Silver Member
Jan 19, 2012
2,976
4,427
Rhode Island
Primary Interest:
Relic Hunting


So no one in Europe has respect for the people who came earlier ?



Absurd. European genetic markers run back tens of thousands of years.



Unlike some, I can recall the USA in the 1950s. Vividly. And had the benefit of knowing, in the '60s, a Native American who had grown up the old way although a Yale graduate. When I asked him whether his people collected the artifacts they found in their fields, he laughed and said, "When you turn your garden and find old broken medicine bottles and rusty tin cans, do you clean them up and save them ? What use did we have for stone tools once we had steel ones ?"

This I recognized as the "old school" Indian mentality -- intensely practical and here-&-now in focus. The Victim Stance mentality you're going on about was adopted from white social engineers, beginning in the 1960s (which I also remember, although through a haze of smoke). They did it to everybody. Native Americans, Black folks, women, any other minority they could get to hold still and listen to them. The White Man is the cancer of history. HE'S the reason for all the exploitation, misery and unfairness in the world.

Manure.

Dismounting soapbox now.

I will tell you what I still remember as to how I learned there were still Indians living in Rhode Island. About 1954, age 6, going on 7. My extended Irish family on my dad’s side would picnic every weekend on a pond in southern RI. Watchaug Pond, the very heart of Narragansett country, and near the present day reservation. Every weekend, weather permitting, in the summer months.


We were due to go home, back to the city. And just before, a cousin and I decided we would walk to the ocean, about 4 miles south as the crow flies. Without telling the adults. I remember some of our outbound journey. We did not reach the ocean, but an old lady offered us a slice of apple pie, after we crossed an open field to her house. She suggested we give up, our folks would be worried.


So we began the return walk. Up a dirt road, past run down homes belonging to Narragansett families. (I had only found out weeks earlier, on the ride from the city, and passing those houses, and saying “mom, who lives in these houses?”, and my mom saying “this is where the Narragansett Indians live”, and I remember thinking “wow, there are still Indians in RI!”). Anyway, we get to a big curve, Narragansett home on right. Big huge oak tree at corner of the driveway. In the road are 4 or 5 Narragansett boys, about our age.


One appears to be the leader. He walks up to me, face to face, and says “do you know where you are? Do you know whose land this is?”. Before I can say anything, he says “This is Narragansett country! And we are going to scalp you!”. One of the boys has a rope. They intend to tie us to the tree. At that moment, my cousin’s parents drive around the curve and we are “rescued”! I can still see us whooping it up and jumping into their car. And being punished. The elders had a camp of girl scouts out looking for us, and were about to notify the state police. It was a real dumb thing we had done.


I think of that Narragansett boy often, to this day. I wonder what was his name. I know, absolutely know, that if alive, he grew up to be a leader of the Narragansett tribe. I will never forget the tone in his voice. I will never forget the pride in his stance. I will never forget how scared I was, lol. I have known a few Narragansett as an adult. It was a part Narragansett, part Swamp Yankee who had taken me on my first arrowhead hunt, about 1957. And I still think of that young Narragansett boy. I’m glad I met someone who must still have that same pride, that pride in his face, eyes, stance, and words, pride that I have never forgotten. I would so much love to meet him again, and say “do you remember the day…..?”. And this time shake his hand.


And that was my introduction to the Narragansett, circa 1954.
 
Last edited:

uniface

Silver Member
Jun 4, 2009
3,181
2,823
Central Pennsylvania
Primary Interest:
Other
There are too many balls in the air for a one-post reply. So:

First, a brief review of a crucially important concept:

George Orwell said:
To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.

OK. That's in the abstract. For a practical example,

Charl said:
you clearly misunderstood what I was saying, esp. your second point . . . I did not say people in Europe today do not have genetic markers extending back many thousands of years, and are therefore not related to very ancient remains found in Europe. I was saying that, in the case of Native Americans, the history of conquest, etc., is relatively very recent. It is not recent in Europe.

The bog burials you cite are in Ireland, right ? ANY Irishman of normal intelligence (whether of native or transplanted stock) would be aware of Cromwell's genocide. Not to mention aware of Ireland's deliberate starvation during the Potato Famine. Not to mention the struggle of the IRA vs. the Black and Tans. Not to mention The Troubles in Ulster . . . But when it's inconvenient to remember those things, they obediently disappear.

And outside Ireland, do you think the Germans don't remember their systematic raping and pillaging of the Soviet and American ("One a shootin', two a lootin'") armies or their deliberate starvation in the years following the war's end ? Or that the Serbians have forgotten what Clinton did to them ? Or the Western Europeans dealing with outright invasion even as we speak ?

I cannot understand your position on this as other than evidence that your mind -- like all minds subjected to lifelong, systematic indoctrination ("brainwashing") -- has been hacked and reprogrammed. Note please that all the intelligence and honesty in the world is no defense against this. Only recognizing the pattern and reclaiming one's autonomy. Otherwise you can end up sincerely believing self-evident rubbish.
 
Last edited:

captain redbeard

Hero Member
Mar 19, 2015
576
1,017
Cayuga county, New York
Detector(s) used
Fisher F70, garrett pinpointer
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I am still a relatively new artifact hunter and don't have any education on native cultures outside of what I learned after I started hunting artifacts. I can't say for sure I've found burials, but I've found things in the woods that crossed my minds as possibly being a burial and I never once- no matter how much I love this hobby and collecting artifacts ever thought to dig them up to see what's in there. The thought of digging someone's grave or keeping someone's bones doesn't sit well with me and is quite disrespectful no matter who does it. Archaeologists have done a great job at understanding primitive culture and putting context and names with things found or used, but IMO they are still grave robbers.

I have to explain to a majority of people that I show my artifacts to my passion for doing this hobby and why I spend so many hours and walk so many miles because the first thing they think when seeing them is $$$. I understand anything lucrative will bring about people with a pretty low moral compass, but I think most people out doing this aren't doing it for profit they are doing it because its a passion and genuine interest. I can't even begin to fathom the amount of artifacts and burials that have been disturbed/destroyed by farm equipment, mass excavations or any industrialization.

What I don't understand is how the government and archaeologists are quick to brand amateur hunters, but give a blind eye to huge companies destroying godly amounts of ancient history. I know personally several people who have worked pipelines for years and they are told by their bosses to keep quiet if anything native comes out of the ground because archs will swoop in and shut their whole operation down...I have to think there's many lines of work out there doing this same thing so they can keep making $$.

IMO amateur hunters are the least destructive when it comes to ancient sites.
 

uniface

Silver Member
Jun 4, 2009
3,181
2,823
Central Pennsylvania
Primary Interest:
Other
Charl said:
It is not about victim mentality at all

It IS the Victim Stance Mentality, pure and simple. But your education, impressive as it is, has trained you to look the other way rather than recognize it. A necessarily long introduction:

I recognize it because, when I changed careers in mid-stream, I found that the only job I wasn't "overqualified" for was one nobody else wanted -- working in the sceptic tank of the state juvenile system. I.e., in what was, in reality, a maximum security lockup for juveniles no other "placement" (the system loves its euphemisms) could handle, while pretending to be a Treatment center. I say "pretending" because while we honestly tried our best to reform these punks, many of whom had more than one murder victim on their records, by the time we got them they were utterly beyond reformation. (Later, after transferring to the [adult] Corrections Department, I looked up as many of them as I could remember and found that 95% of them had subsequently racked up felony convictions as adults. One was/in on Death Row). We used to call the effort "Teaching chickens to march in formation."

When founded, in the 1970s, it was one of (possibly the) first such efforts anywhere in this country. On paper, it was designed to put the insights of Drs. Yochelson and Samenow (authors of the groundbreaking study The Criminal Personality, which we studied) into practical use. (In practice, of course, the welfare Department, which had control of it, re-wrote it to suit its own feel-good, "kid care" imaginings about how a "Treatment Center" should run, de-clawing it and pulling its teeth). Yochelson and Samenow had found, after years of fruitless efforts by Yochelson to come up on a sociologically/psychoanalitically-based basis, that they had to go back to square one and start over from a phenomenological approach to get anywhere. Because in fact (if not in theory), poverty did not produce crime : too many people grew up horrendously "disadvantaged" but went on to be solid members of their communities. Case in point Bill Cosby, from the Richard Allen (housing) Project in Philadelphia, site of the highest rate of serious crime in the state and possibly, at that time, in the country. (I got to know quite a lot of them in the 6.5 years I worked there). And by the same token, too many people grow up hyper-advantaged but turn to crime because, hang gliding possibly excepted, only crime provides the high-voltage excitement their lives seem empty without.

To make a long story short, none of the usual bromide excuses for criminality held water when examined seriously in the real world. What DID, as the evidence of thousands of treatment notes from inmates at St. Elizabeth's Hospital for the Criminally Insane (Washington DC) where they worked consistently revealed, was that serious criminals-- the kind you read about in the paper, the police dread encountering and I worked with eight hours a day -- turn to crime because they like the excitement and rewards involved. It's a conscious decision, carefully planned.

With this said, however, in case after case, their thought process consistently displays what Yochelson called "thinking errors" -- ordinary malfunctions of thought, but pushed to an extreme degree. (You can read the bare-bones list of them at
https://attchub.org/userfiles/file/GreatLakes/Webinars/Thinking Errors Handout.pdf )

Victim Stance mentality is universal in this population. One extreme but representative example was "John Boy" who, by age 12, had stolen so many cars in Philadelphia (he had to carry a telephone book to sit on so he could see over the dashboards to drive them to the chop shops he sold them to) that even the bleedingheartliberalsocialworkercommiepinkofag (our term of endearment) juvenile court judges who dealt with him had to send him away for "treatment" because there was no other way to get such a one-man (one-boy) crime wave off the streets. There, one of the flaming idiot social worker types our "higher education" system churns out had (this is beyond belief) given him the keys to her car, asking him to bring her something she wanted from its trunk. As she would have foreseen if she had had any earthly sense at all, in a heartbeat, John Boy was headed back to Philadelphia, and at a high rate of speed. He tore down a long driveway toward the main road. There, a school bus was unloading elementary school kids. Rather than stopping, he leaned on the horn and ploughed through them, killing several and horribly injuring others. Several years later, despite sitting through too many therapeutic groups to count, he maintained that HE was the real victim in this, unfairly condemned to Juvenile Life because those stupid kids (which we were calling his victims) knew he was coming, but failed to scatter after fair warning. Their lives were on their own heads.

Encounter enough examples of Victim Stance mentality in counseling sessions with sociopaths, and to this kind of extreme degree, and you recognize the garden variety of it when you see it. I don't expect you to take my word for it, but it clearly is once the bigger picture comes clear. Facts are cherry picked to compel a conclusion, while inconvenient, balancing facts are carefully omitted.

It's a specific form of Doublethink, in which an emotional telescope is used to make distant things look big, near and important, while it is is turned around backwards to make close things look small, distant and unimportant when this creates the desired impression. In extreme cases (increasingly common)

Tevye said:
On the other hand . . . THERE IS NO OTHER HAND !

Again, sorry for the length.
 
Last edited:

Huzzah!

Sr. Member
Mar 16, 2019
347
604
Old Virginny
Detector(s) used
AT MAX
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Heck yeah Redbeard. While my collection probably ain’t worth a ton I couldn’t see myself selling any of it unless through some extreme, unimaginable, and unfortunate circumstance. It’s all about the process, the history, and who you’re with.
 

Treasure_Hunter

Administrator
Staff member
Jul 27, 2006
46,160
49,205
Florida
Detector(s) used
Minelab_Equinox_ 800 Minelab_CTX-3030 Minelab_Excal_1000 Minelab_Sovereign_GT Minelab_Safari Minelab_ETrac Whites_Beach_Hunter_ID Fisher_1235_X
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Heck yeah Redbeard. While my collection probably ain?t worth a ton I couldn?t see myself selling any of it unless through some extreme, unimaginable, and unfortunate circumstance. It?s all about the process, the history, and who you?re with.

I have my collection insured just for protection although it is worth more than the $50k it is insured for. I turned down some good money for several of my pieces.
 

pepperj

Gold Member
Feb 3, 2009
26,214
83,548
Detector(s) used
Deus, Minelab 3030, E-Trac,
Primary Interest:
Relic Hunting
Because in fact (if not in theory), poverty did not produce crime : too many people grew up horrendously "disadvantaged" but went on to be solid members of their communities. Case in point Bill Cosby, from the Richard Allen (housing) Project in Philadelphia, site of the highest rate of serious crime in the state and possibly, at that time, in the country. (I got to know quite a lot of them in the 6.5 years I worked there).

Bill Cosby a solid member of their community? Just had a fist full of dollars and great lawyers.
But no pillar-just another POS.....
 

T.C.

Bronze Member
May 17, 2012
2,406
3,771
Kalamity Falls, Orygun
Detector(s) used
Whites M6
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
This is exactly what I was talking about in my preceding post. Why in the hell does the Smithsonian need to keep this Indin's brain in a jar for 80 years? On another note, watch the movie: Ishi, Last of His Race. It's a great movie.

005.JPG
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Top