Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[Loke]

I have never seen this before - but being a non-native, one thing that has always baffled me about _all_ the signatures I have seen of Jacob Waltz is that it is rather _anglicized_ - in particular the caps, and especially the 'J'.
I must admit that I have not (yet) checked too much of German handwriting - but I'm going to - just giving the rest of yall something to 'chew' on ...

I realize (of course) that many of the samples have been written by someone else - but surely, some must be of the man himself?

 

[Springfield]

Page 48.
Read about this symbol and how it attracted Masonic pilgrims to Casa Grande in numbers. Hayden gives a logical explanation for the symbol which for Masons was something of an embarrassment. But after you read it, think about Hayden's explanation which is correct, Next, ask yourself about the bird and what it represents. This is where I think Hayden missed the point. Masonic symbolism embedded into the design of the bird. Unless archetypes do develop universally without exchange or contact which, I find difficult believe.

The Masonic connection was a weak argument, IMO. However, the labyrinth carving - that's the real story.

 

[somehiker]

It is, even on it's own. But with the same labyrinth carving also found on the interior walls of Montezuma Castle and the Tonto National Monument ruin, it becomes even more intriguing IMO. One line, if the three are triangulated, passes almost right over the place where US 60 crosses Queen Creek. Although that may be only coincidental, I have a suspicion the carvings were all made by the same person. Someone from the same religious order as the one who first reported it. If so, the question becomes WHY ?

Regards:SH.

 

[Ellie Baba]

The Masonic connection was a weak argument, IMO. However, the labyrinth carving - that's the real story.

Hi Springfield,

Read paragraphs 1 & 2 again on page 48. The labyrinth carving was/is a hoax. My money has always been with the Masonic connection as their relationships fill in the blanks. See images below.

Phoenix bird is in center of bulls eye near end of Sky Harbor airport. Second and third image; 24th, 23rd, 25th street reversed. Note the name of 25th St. (Copperhead).



Guess where Jacob Waltz used to live. Starars controlled RR just N/W of this location. Also look at the architecture of circles, its all Masonic.

Ellie B

 

[Ellie Baba]

It is, even on it's own. But with the same labyrinth carving also found on the interior walls of Montezuma Castle and the Tonto National Monument ruin, it becomes even more intriguing IMO. One line, if the three are triangulated, passes almost right over the place where US 60 crosses Queen Creek. Although that may be only coincidental, I have a suspicion the carvings were all made by the same person. Someone from the same religious order as the one who first reported it. If so, the question becomes WHY ?

Regards:SH.

Good day Somehiker,

The Knights of the Golden Circle was a secret order, comprised of Southern Sympathizers during the Civil War. Their members were known as Copperheads.

Sounds like this religious group would fit the bill. They love using lines to connect markers one to another, take special note when one line crosses another; go investigate and look for signs/symbols.

Ellie B

 

[somehiker]

"Sounds like this religious group would fit the bill. They love using lines to connect markers one to another, take special note when one line crosses another; go investigate and look for signs/symbols."

Already have, EB.
And there's lots to look at, since they all have something in common.
Casa Grande/Montezuma's Castle/ Tonto Cliff Dwelling and a place in the mountains in between.
All way older than the KGC.

 

[Springfield]

It is, even on it's own. But with the same labyrinth carving also found on the interior walls of Montezuma Castle and the Tonto National Monument ruin, it becomes even more intriguing IMO. One line, if the three are triangulated, passes almost right over the place where US 60 crosses Queen Creek. Although that may be only coincidental, I have a suspicion the carvings were all made by the same person. Someone from the same religious order as the one who first reported it. If so, the question becomes WHY ?

Regards:SH.

Coincidences are suspicious things.

 

[Springfield]

Hi Springfield,
Read paragraphs 1 & 2 again on page 48. The labyrinth carving was/is a hoax...

Yes, I've heard before that the Casa Grande labyrinth carving was 'modern'. I don't really know, but the page 48 explanation sounds pretty thin, for my money. It's the symbol and its location that are important, regardless when it was placed, IMO. You'll find that many Southwestern 'Indian petroglyphs' are modern creations (post-Columbian).

 

[Ellie Baba]

"Sounds like this religious group would fit the bill. They love using lines to connect markers one to another, take special note when one line crosses another; go investigate and look for signs/symbols."

Already have, EB.
And there's lots to look at, since they all have something in common.
Casa Grande/Montezuma's Castle/ Tonto Cliff Dwelling and a place in the mountains in between.
All way older than the KGC.

Somehiker,

True, but not older than the Egyptians, Ionians, Templars, etc., then we must include the KGC and the Masons as part of this legacy.



Lots of clues can be found on this map. Old Dominion or Ancient Dominion, cornerstone is Christ as cross is very obvious. The list goes on. The Masons are a continuation of this ancient history, but on a need-to-know basis, which eliminates the vast majority of their secret society. It must remain a secret until the proper time and then all will be revealed.

"JJ" represents the KGC, "J" represents the Ancients. JJ signs and symbols lead to the single J symbol, tied together by history. The circle and the square (squaring the circle), the Golden Mean, pi, 33, 18,9,7, L, H, etc. These are the keys to find and follow as are so many others.



El Cobollo de Santa fe; he too is very ancient.

Ellie B

 

[somehiker]

That's a horse , EB
I thought Judas got a bag of silver coins for being a rat.
But now you're trying to tell us he got a little horse's head instead ??
Wait'll the Pope hears about this........

 

[somehiker]

Yes, I've heard before that the Casa Grande labyrinth carving was 'modern'. I don't really know, but the page 48 explanation sounds pretty thin, for my money. It's the symbol and its location that are important, regardless when it was placed, IMO. You'll find that many Southwestern 'Indian petroglyphs' are modern creations (post-Columbian).

Seeing as how Fr. Juan Nentvig wrote of seeing the Casa Grande labyrinth carving during his travels in upper pimeria, and included a sketch of it in his manuscript for "Rudo Ensayo" , you might be able to say it's a "modern" creation, I guess. Hell, the locals even made up a story about it being a drawing of some strange big house way up the river. And you are right about many petroglyphs also being of post-columbian manufacture. This "boogie man" might be classified as such.......

View attachment 925371

 

[Ellie Baba]

Somehiker,

Seriously, the Masonic Brotherhood takes care of their own. The Agreement was made so that no matter what happened to him in his elderly years he would be taken care of. As we now understand his situation he was not a wealthy man towards the end of his life and he depended upon the Brotherhood to see to his needs. The Starar brothers were very well to do and could have easily accomplished this task without the agreement. However, pride as we all know, IMHO played a part in the creation of the agreement because Jacob wanted to give something of value instead of accepting charity, which by the way Masons practice on a daily basis. What is the value of $50.00 to a man of wealth? We, as men who have worked hard our whole lives always find it difficult to accept gifts from those who wish to help us when we are down. When we do it is because of necessity, but we still will make some type of agreement to pay our debt.

I myself have been there a few times. A friend in need is a friend in deed and the Masons take this phrase very seriously. I know this all to well as my Father was once a member of this Fraternal organization and I witnessed their work firsthand.

Ellie B

 

[somehiker]

Well, the Masons I know, and even some I don't, have certainly been good to me.
And it's not surprising that their ideas and craftsmanship pop up everywhere around us.
After all, the square and dividers are not just for decoration.

Regards:SH.

 

[sgtfda]

I'm not saying a word though it is interesting seeing these interpretations by non Masons.

 

[Somero]

Ya know us Carpenters never get any respect anymore....................old Carpenter saying when a mistake is made "There was One Perfect Carpenter and look what they did to him."

 

[Hal Croves]

Ya know us Carpenters never get any respect anymore....................old Carpenter saying when a mistake is made "There was One Perfect Carpenter and look what they did to him."

"There was One Perfect Carpenter's son and look what they did to him."

 

[Loke]

I have never seen this before - but being a non-native, one thing that has always baffled me about _all_ the signatures I have seen of Jacob Waltz is that it is rather _anglicized_ - in particular the caps, and especially the 'J'.
I must admit that I have not (yet) checked too much of German handwriting - but I'm going to - just giving the rest of yall something to 'chew' on ...

I realize (of course) that many of the samples have been written by someone else - but surely, some must be of the man himself?

As far as I can tell - the vast majority of German handwriting has a descending cap-J (I have only checked from 1810-through 1860 - might be different today), while in the US/UK hardly ever so.
I got a couple of examples last night - and once I figure out how to post'em - I'll put them up ... (hey - its a first time for everyone - I have never submitted a pic yet ...)

And yes, obviously a man's handwriting can (and will) change with time, but ... I believe the general shape of letters will be rather stable. A thing like a capital-J, I doubt that will ever change with time ... got summat to do with ya 'pottie-training'

 

[Cubfan64]

Somehiker,

Seriously, the Masonic Brotherhood takes care of their own. The Agreement was made so that no matter what happened to him in his elderly years he would be taken care of. As we now understand his situation he was not a wealthy man towards the end of his life and he depended upon the Brotherhood to see to his needs. The Starar brothers were very well to do and could have easily accomplished this task without the agreement. However, pride as we all know, IMHO played a part in the creation of the agreement because Jacob wanted to give something of value instead of accepting charity, which by the way Masons practice on a daily basis. What is the value of $50.00 to a man of wealth? We, as men who have worked hard our whole lives always find it difficult to accept gifts from those who wish to help us when we are down. When we do it is because of necessity, but we still will make some type of agreement to pay our debt.

I myself have been there a few times. A friend in need is a friend in deed and the Masons take this phrase very seriously. I know this all to well as my Father was once a member of this Fraternal organization and I witnessed their work firsthand.

Ellie B

I'm not so convinced that the Starar brothers were all that well to do by the time the agreement was signed, and it definitely seems as though their fortunes got worse by the time Andrew and then Jacob died. I don't want to delve too deeply into any Masonic slant to the whole LDM story in this thread, but if you're trying to say that Waltz was a Mason and therefore the Starar's (also being Masons) felt the need to help him out, how do you wrap your head around Waltz ever having access to as much gold as he supposedly did?

If what you say is correct, Waltz could have not only helped himself out with his gold ore wealth, he could have helped out many other of his "brothers" no? In fact, why wouldn't Waltz file a claim on his mine along with the Starar brothers or some other trusted members of the Masonic organization - surely they would have had enough influence to keep the claim from being "jumped" by anyone, and they could have used that wealth for tremendous benefit?

Something's missing in the idea of a Masonic connection here and I don't know what it is, but I don't think it's as simple as you've laid it out Ellie. I'm not convinced Waltz was a mason, and actually even if he was, I know nothing whatsoever about the order, but the logic and thoughts I expressed above don't seem to jive with the idea. What am I missing?

 

[cw0909]

A.starar, had a partner in ​Humboldt in 1860 a, norman underwood

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/results/default.aspx?searchCriteria=type=patent|st=|cty=|ln=starar|sp=true|sw=true|sadv=false

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/details/patent/default.aspx?accession=0466-014&docClass=MW&sid=1qz05lta.1be

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/details/patent/default.aspx?accession=CACAAA%20143150&docClass=SER&sid=1qz05lta.1be

 

[Garry]

A.starar, had a partner in ​Humboldt in 1860 a, norman underwood

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/results/default.aspx?searchCriteria=type=patent|st=|cty=|ln=starar|sp=true|sw=true|sadv=false

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/details/patent/default.aspx?accession=0466-014&docClass=MW&sid=1qz05lta.1be

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/details/patent/default.aspx?accession=CACAAA%20143150&docClass=SER&sid=1qz05lta.1be

CW,

I couldn't get the 1st or 3rd link to work but the second one got me to where I needed to go.

Good Work, Thanks!

I'm not sure Andrew and Norman were partners as Norman had received a Military Bounty Warrant for fighting in the Mexican War that allowed him to obtain a tract of public land (in any state) for free. He had exercised this right and he was now passing the land on to Andrew. I don't see any mention of payment in this record but there was probably some compensation as Andrew now has a title to the land described.

I haven't digested everything yet but one small item that caught my attention was the middle initial of Andrew. A German genealogist has tentatively identifed the parents and siblings of the Starar Brother but his research stops when that family left Germany in 1829. I have been trying to pick it up in the US but so far no luck. The name he has for Andrew was Andreas Phillip Stoehrer (Starrer - One English Spelling). This document does help me believe I'm at least on the right track.

Thanks Again,

Garry