Almost got the record for being shorted!!!!!!!

[XX]

Went to pickup my order of $2000 IKE's. I pay the cash, a teller brings out a bag and sets it on the counter.

Then after an awkward long pause, the teller says "Have a nice day"
So I finally speak up "Uhh, there should be another bag."
They tell me that it's all in one bag.
I try to explain that there's no way there could be 2000 IKE's in one bag.
They weren't having any of that. They go and pull the receipt for the coin shipment and show me where it clearly states 1 bag of $2000.
I try to explain that is the way the ordering system handles the order as it's only setup for small dollar coins. For the IKE's, the order is processed electronically for small dollar coins, but then the coin room substitutes the IKE's for delivery.

Well, it gets to the point where I need to break the seal on the bag and start counting. They actually let me get all the way to $989 plus 3 SBA's. Yes, the bag is actually $8 short on top not being the 2000 they claim. (I do find a 40%AG IKE in there, but at $9, that's an expensive IKE).

After realizing I'm right, they call up Brinks and finally get through to the coin room where the person tells them "Oooopss!!!. We have an extra bag sitting right here that the driver forgot to grab". They promise to deliver it with the next shipment.

So they give me a $1000 back and I take the bag (I let the $8 slide because if I make a stink about it, they won't order anything for me again).

I still wonder how this would have panned out if I had not known better and walked out with the bag only to call the next day and claim I was shorted $1000. On top of all this, I paid an $8 premium for a 40%Ag IKE and some proofs. I still haven't found my 1973D for the book.

 

[jim4silver]

Did the bank know that the bag was short? Even without you making a stink, they should have credited you the difference. That is a crappy bank if that is how they handle things.

Jim

 

[BBcardsRI]

Its not the BANKS fault the bag was short... its Brinks or whoever delivers it.

The bank gets shortened itself A LOT from rolls they buy and from their coin counter machines counting wrong. I don't blame them for not offering to pay for it.

Anywho, it is good that you had ordered IKES before and knew what was up. Only type of person who WOULDN'T know it was short at first glance would be a first time orderer... and I don't think THAT would have ended up well for them. =(

Glad you talked them out of their mistake.

And grats on the 40%... never gotten one of those myself.

~Dave

 

[jim4silver]

Its not the BANKS fault the bag was short... its Brinks or whoever delivers it.

The bank gets shortened itself A LOT from rolls they buy and from their coin counter machines counting wrong. I don't blame them for not offering to pay for it.

~Dave

Dave Dave Dave,

You are wrong. While it might not be the bank's fault for the short bag, they are the only ones who could remedy this for XX. He cannot walk up to the Brinks driver and demand a refund, can he?

Brinks works for the bank, in that the bank pays Brinks for coin service. Since a bank employee verified the bag was short after the seal was open in their presence, and before the bag left the bank, the bank could get the difference back from Brinks. Since XX is the bank's customer, they should have given him the 8 dollars, then they could get it back from Brinks later.

There would appear to be no privity of contract between XX and Brinks, thus he has no action against them in this instance for recoupment.

To say that the bank can wash its hands of the mistake and say "sorry XX, I guess you are screwed," is f'n ridiculous.

Jim

 

[BBcardsRI]

He didn't say they verified the shortage did he, though? I could have missed that tid bit...

I've got a question for you since you seem to know so much about the brinks vs. bank relationship:

I've bought bags of coin both from coin machines in banks as well as bags that were made from dumping handrolls that customers brought in. Each time I buy them, I am told by the teller/head teller that "the bag could very well be short, and you will have to eat the loss, do you still want it" I say yes and buy the bag for what the bag says is in it and not what is actually in it. Now, I have never complained of being short, though I always am, and have never heard of anyone else complaining for a refund either in the dozens of posts on here about people going through bags and coming up short. Now, can we not get a refund because it would be our word against the writing on the bag that says "$1,000". Could I offer to count the bag out there and then get paid any difference? (Assuming they would even let that happen)... very time consuming (though, if you buy a bag of quarters, you could be shorted by $10 or MORE, and it takes much less than an hour to count out quickly what is in the bag... so you save when you consider shortage vs. time spent to verify it).

Now... part two of the question which is much more interesting to me, is how does Brinks get their bags? Do they get the bags from the banks... dump them, hopper them, and THEN ship them out. Or do they just get the bags, credit the banks account, and then ship them out as needed to OTHER banks? I ask this, because bags are shorted right from brinks. So do they just have REALLY bad counting machines? Which seems odd... If just one bag can be $8 short... imagine how much that adds up to with all the bags they send out.

Now anothing thing to consider... if the bags are just resent out from brinks that they get in from banks... then the BANK is responsible for this $8 dollar shortage, so why should BRINKS pay it? Unless they are by contract suppost to recount the bags and cheat just to save time?

Another bit of info to show that Brinks may not be recounting the bags is that numerous people have gotten boxes of halves that have slits in all the rolls. So obviously they have been checked for silver... given back to the bank... sent out to brinks... then delivered to a bank from brinks AS IS. There may have been even more dramatic examples but I can't remember. I think I recall someone saying that they got a box that had all the rolls or at least some of them uncrimped on one end, implying carefull opening of rolls (or at least the rolls WITH silver). Brinks should know, that box or bag, the coin they get has been circulated. Afterall, why would a bank pay for a delivery of a box of halves just to pay to have it picked back up again?

If you can't answer these questions, perhaps someone else can? I am quite curious.

~Dave

 

[Silver_Fox]

That is a bummer. The short part. I've gotten 3 1K Ike bags. All were spot on. I got a 1922 Peace out of one, a 1973s and a 40%. Mine had a thick string with a steel crimp tag. They didn't come from Brinks. Not sure what to do about the short part. I'll let BB and Dave battle it out for you.

 

[jim4silver]

I don't profess to be an expert on Brinks vs. bank relationships. But XX did say in his post that he broke the seal at the bank and counted them in front of the teller.

I think in 99% of the cases where we get shorted we are screwed, whether it be because the shortage is discovered after we have left the bank and we cannot prove we were shorted or we don't want to make waves with the bank, or in the case of the counting machine bag where we accept what they have as fact because they are not going to take the time to count it and offer it to us "as is" because we are addicted CRHers and we take the risk. And most of the time if we complained we are worried we could lose the chance to CRH at a particular bank. I did buy from a coin machine a couple of times where they counted all the halves before they gave them to me. One time still had lots of 90s and 40s, and the other only had 40s, so I dont think they pilfered, although I would rather have had the bag without it being counted.

But this instance of XX is somewhat rare, in that there is no doubt it was short and they cannot say he faked it. One bank I bought rolls from would take them out of the box and count the rolls. So if you bought a box you actually got 5 groups of ten rolls all rubberbanded together. I hated getting them that way but I appreciated that the bank took it upon themselves to verify that there were 50 rolls in the box. I have only seen this at two different banks out of lots and lots.

Jim

 

[jim4silver]

That is a bummer. The short part. I've gotten 3 1K Ike bags. All were spot on. I got a 1922 Peace out of one, a 1973s and a 40%. Mine had a thick string with a steel crimp tag. They didn't come from Brinks. Not sure what to do about the short part. I'll let BB and Dave battle it out for you.

Perhaps Brinks bought the Ikes from somewhere else and they didn't make the error via the count, but somewhere somebody came out $8 ahead and it wasnt XX.

It seems to me that banks are pretty anal about dollars and cents balancing out in transactions. If XX was shorted, I still put the responsibility on the bank to make it right with him, and then the bank can square it up with Brinks or whomever is responsible for the shortage. Cause if it wasnt Brinks' fault, then they got shorted too, just like the bank and XX. I guess they would have to go up the chain to see whose fault it was and who wound up $8 unjustly enriched??


Jim

 

[BBcardsRI]

I am guessing that the bank is going to end up $8 dollars richer as I believe they sent out a short bag and is having brinks pay for the shortage. But then again I HIGHLY doubt it was the bank XX went to that shorted the bag... as I doubt they got their own bag back in.

So it is unfair all the way around really unless you track down what bank actually sent in the bag, and have fun doing that! And getting them to pay for it! Ha... would take a miracle.

I'm still very curious on the percentage of bags and boxes that brinks gets and doesn't hopper and just send abck out... too bad I will probably never hear that number.

Grats on the peace dollar by the way Fox! You should keep ordering those bags with those type of odds. One $10 silver melted coin in only 3 bags searched. Beats alot of people's silver finds from boxes lately... including my own. Must not be beating your own if you are passing up the opportunity.

~Dave

P.S. Jim... I find it VERY odd for a bank to count the rolls out. I've heard of short rolls in a box but never a box short in terms of ROLLS! I can't believe they would take the time to count the halves in a bag either! That is insane. How slow are the banks you go to where the tellers have time to actually do such things. =) I wouldn't MIND if they counted them as far as them taking silver out or anything... I mean I assume they are counting them as you ask for then and not in a back room or while you aren't at the bank... like if you order it in advance. If they are counting it in front of you, obviously they won't take coins out. I can't think of teller with the balls to just take silver out right in front of you... what would they do... scrounge around for a replacement coin to make the bag even again? lol "Sorry sir... but THIS half looks a little... uh... DIRTY... let me look for a cleaner one." lol =)

 

[markmopar]

If they are counting it in front of you, obviously they won't take coins out. I can't think of teller with the balls to just take silver out right in front of you...

wanna bet? check this old post of mine:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,142957.0.html

 

[Fropa]

I've had several times when the teller counted the bag from the machine by hand before selling it to me to make sure the count was right. Sometimes the bag is counted in front of me and sometimes in the back. I always wonder if their grabbing the silver when they count it out of sight, but if they say they have to count it you can either say ok or pass on the bag. If they decide to keep some, all they have to do is say the count was off and it only had $XX not $YY like the machine said so we saved you from being shorted. I've also had one bank that opened and counted a couple hundred in hand rolled halves to make sure none of the rolls were short. On my last road trip 2 tellers hand counted $229 halves out of the counting machine bag in front of me. They were happy to find out the machine count was right on.

 

[Silver_Fox]

Grats on the peace dollar by the way Fox! You should keep ordering those bags with those type of odds. One $10 silver melted coin in only 3 bags searched. Beats alot of people's silver finds from boxes lately... including my own. Must not be beating your own if you are passing up the opportunity.
~Dave

That was late last year. It wasn't bad while I was dumping them on Ebay. It was around Xmas. After Xmas they quit selling. I didn't like the odds enough to keep getting them. I was doing 6- 10 boxes of halves per week then and it was to much additional dumping.