Americans in the Spanish West

[bigscoop]

One of the debates concerning Americans in the west at the time of the Beale deposits is whether on not the Spanish permitted Americans to conduct their business affairs in the Spanish region. Some will point out cases of American arrest and imprisonment as examples of Spanish resistance, however, there are some opposite examples that you will seldom hear about in treasure hunting circles. While it’s not my intention to present a long list of these examples here, I do want to take the time to present one particular case so you’ll have a better understanding of the real situation in the Spanish west at the time of the Beale Papers. Spain “did” do business with Americans in the Spanish west, and Americans were entertained there without threat possibly as early as 1796. Here’s a link explaining these circumstances. (Keep in mind that these would have been anglo american settlers, and that this deal was aproved and granted by the Spanish Crown.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Austin

(Pay attention to the dates, 1796 – 1798) Just goes to show that Spain was indeed entertaining “genuine business opportunities” from east of the Mississippi long before the Beale deposits.)

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

It was different in 1819 +... read "By all accounts, visiting Santa Fe ANY time in the two decades preceding 1821 (when Mexico gained independence from Spain) was a particularly a BAD idea. Records show that Americans who entered Santa Fe (w/o passports)... were arrested and PUT IN PRISON." http://bealetreasurestory.com/id20.html Contact THAT author/web-site guy... NOT me!

 

[bigscoop]

It was different in 1819 +... read "By all accounts, visiting Santa Fe ANY time in the two decades preceding 1821 (when Mexico gained independence from Spain) was a particularly a BAD idea. Records show that Americans who entered Santa Fe (w/o passports)... were arrested and PUT IT PRISON." http://bealetreasurestory.com/id20.html Contact THAT author/web-site guy... NOT me!

True. But when you really get to digging you find "the passport" largely depended on who you were and what your business was. There was also "a lot" of contraband trade making its way into the region.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

AGREE! It WAS a dangerous job... Mexico (aka NEW Spain) or Spain? WHICH treaties?

 

[bigscoop]

It was different in 1819 +... read "By all accounts, visiting Santa Fe ANY time in the two decades preceding 1821 (when Mexico gained independence from Spain) was a particularly a BAD idea. Records show that Americans who entered Santa Fe (w/o passports)... were arrested and PUT IT PRISON." http://bealetreasurestory.com/id20.html Contact THAT author/web-site guy... NOT me!

True. But when you really get to digging you find "the passport" largely depended on who you were and what your business was. There was also "a lot" of contraband trade making its way into the region.

Would it make a difference to any of you that the TJB and party members where tied in with the "Treaty Signers" Of the 4,000 or so signatures that appear on Indian Treaties over 400 belonged to the same family. Don't you think if they were on missions to sign Indian Treaties they would be welcome by the Spanish also. Some members of this group were killed by the Indians-------it was a dangerous job.

You have the signature of "Thomas Beale" on a treaty? Great! Must admit, first time I've ever heard of that document.

 

[bigscoop]

I said tied in with-----------not TJB signature on a treaty. How about Harriett Kennerly------know her? Or James Kennerly and George Kennerly. How about Mary Radford, William Radford, Harriett K. Radford, George Rogers Clark, William Clark, Julia Hancock----------there are others and all are kin to James Beverly Ward through the Clark, Radford, Kennerly and Otey families. Need I say more?

Sorry. I misunderstood. Interesting stuff all the same though.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

When James Beverly Ward was very old they say he was at the Clerk's Office searching for members of the Kennerly Family. Samuel Kennerly married Harriett Brown, a sister of Angelina Brown that married John Buford Otey. Their daughter Harriett married James Beverly Ward. Also it is in P.V.'s writings that Sarah Mitchell, consort of Robert Morriss, was an aunt to Angelina Brown. I have all of the connections in my genealogy of all the families connected to the Beale Treasure Job Print Pamphlet.

How does George Rogers Clark tie in? I have some info on the Clarks, as they were a Kentucky family, and some of them married into my family.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

You have the signature of "Thomas Beale" on a treaty? Great! Must admit, first time I've ever heard of that document.

Did you ever see this document ?

 

[franklin]

How does George Rogers Clark tie in? I have some info on the Clarks, as they were a Kentucky family, and some of them married into my family.

George Rogers Clark was a brother to William Clark of the Lewis & Clark Expedition fame. At one time he was the highest ranking soldier of the American Army in the Northwest. His brother William Clark was Governor of the Louisiana and Mississippi Territories. William married Julia Hancock daughter of George Hancock. A gun duel was supposed to have taken place between James Beverly Risque (Grandfather of the agent for the author of the Job Print Pamphlet or Beale Papers as everyone calls them) and Thomas Beale Sr. the one believed to have lead the expedition that buried the Beale Treasure in Bedford County, Virginia. Julia Hancock died young and William Clark then married one of the Kennerly daughters. And the Kennerly bloodkin runs all through the Beale Treasure Mystery.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

George Rogers Clark was a brother to William Clark of the Lewis & Clark Expedition fame. At one time he was the highest ranking soldier of the American Army in the Northwest. His brother William Clark was Governor of the Louisiana and Mississippi Territories. William married Julia Hancock daughter of George Hancock. A gun duel was supposed to have taken place between James Beverly Risque (Grandfather of the agent for the author of the Job Print Pamphlet or Beale Papers as everyone calls them) and Thomas Beale Sr. the one believed to have lead the expedition that buried the Beale Treasure in Bedford County, Virginia. Julia Hancock died young and William Clark then married one of the Kennerly daughters. And the Kennerly bloodkin runs all through the Beale Treasure Mystery.

"Sweet Judy" (aka Julia HANCOCK) died in 1820; her father, Col. HANCOCK, died soon afterwards. John HANCOCK (DOI)
"connection"; James Beverly Risque's wife was ALSO a HANCOCK... gee, ALL IN THE FAMILY!

 

[ECS]

"Sweet Judy" (aka Julia HANCOCK) died in 1820; her father, Col. HANCOCK, died soon afterwards. John HANCOCK (DOI)
"connection"; James Beverly Risque's wife was ALSO a HANCOCK... gee, ALL IN THE FAMILY!

...and some refuse to see this all in the family connection.

 

[Old Silver]

...and some refuse to see this all in the family connection.

We have no problem with the connections, just the conclusions. But if you can prove the conclusions, I will accept it as fact.
Your claim could very well be correct. My thoughts could be correct. Other's beliefs could be correct. The only way to know for sure is to find proof. Until I find proof for what I consider possibility, I can't say that my thoughts are correct, even though I have found some pretty good suggestive evidence, just as you have. At this point, until proof is shown, all I can say is, anything is possible.